Unforgiveness is unforgivable...

[RDKirk]

Out of curiosity and to be clear what you are saying here, are you implying that Jesus did not actually meant what he said in Matthew 15:24, but rather he was just "agreeing with the sentiment expressed by the disciples to get her reaction", so as to test her faith?

I would say that Jesus was presenting a teaching moment to His disciples--that salvation was for all by faith rather than by inheritance. Yes, he was posing an agreement with the sentiment expressed by the disciples, setting them up for a lesson that the truth was other than they supposed.

This wasn't the only time He did that. He did that as well with the story of Lazarus and the rich man. In that, Jesus sets up a situation in which His listeners would surely conclude that the rich man--obviously blessed for his righteousness, and the poor man obviously cursed for his unrighteousness--and then reversed their expectations with the truth that actually the rich man was cursed and the poor man blessed.

 

[Guojing]

I would say that Jesus was presenting a teaching moment to His disciples--that salvation was for all by faith rather than by inheritance. Yes, he was posing an agreement with the sentiment expressed by the disciples, setting them up for a lesson that the truth was other than they supposed.

It is indeed interesting for me to learn how people can come to the conclusion that Jesus did not really meant what he said in Matthew 15:24.

But let me get it straight, despite other verses implying the same meaning as Matthew 15:24, such as Matthew 10:5-6, John 4:22, Romans 15:8, Ephesians 2:11-12 and so on and so forth, you are willing to believe that Jesus was "joking" (posing an agreement with the sentiment expressed by the disciples), when he stated Matthew 15:24, so that he can present "a teaching moment to His disciples--that salvation was for all by faith rather than by inheritance"?

 

[RDKirk]

It is indeed interesting for me to learn how people can come to the conclusion that Jesus did not really meant what he said in Matthew 15:24.

But let me get it straight, despite other verses implying the same meaning as Matthew 15:24, such as Matthew 10:5-6, John 4:22, Romans 15:8, Ephesians 2:11-12 and so on and so forth, you are willing to believe that Jesus was "joking" (posing an agreement with the sentiment expressed by the disciples), when he stated Matthew 15:24, so that he can present "a teaching moment to His disciples--that salvation was for all by faith rather than by inheritance"?

Your characterization of "joking" is merely your own idea of a clever rhetorical trick.

 

[Guojing]

Your characterization of "joking" is merely your own idea of a clever rhetorical trick.

Okay, if you are offended by that term, what if I use your own words "posing an agreement with the sentiment expressed by the disciples"?

Would those other verses affect your understanding of what Jesus really meant when he stated Matthew 15:24? Why not?

 

[RDKirk]

Okay, if you are offended by that term, what if I use your own words "posing an agreement with the sentiment expressed by the disciples"?

I would say that Jesus was presenting a teaching moment to His disciples--that salvation was for all by faith rather than by inheritance. Yes, he was posing an agreement with the sentiment expressed by the disciples, setting them up for a lesson that the truth was other than they supposed.

This wasn't the only time He did that. He did that as well with the story of Lazarus and the rich man. In that, Jesus sets up a situation in which His listeners would surely conclude that the rich man--obviously blessed for his righteousness, and the poor man obviously cursed for his unrighteousness--and then reversed their expectations with the truth that actually the rich man was cursed and the poor man blessed.

 

[Guojing]

I would say that Jesus was presenting a teaching moment to His disciples--that salvation was for all by faith rather than by inheritance. Yes, he was posing an agreement with the sentiment expressed by the disciples, setting them up for a lesson that the truth was other than they supposed.

What about other verses implying the same literal meaning as Matthew 15:24, such as Matthew 10:5-6, John 4:22, Romans 15:8, Ephesians 2:11-12 and so on and so forth?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hello again Carl, I can hardly disagree with the seriousness of it, but I'm not sure that we can arrive at its true/intended meaning if we simply allow v15 to "speak for itself" (by taking it as written, apart from/out-of-context with what the rest of the Bible has to say about the topic).

Here's another example that comes quickly to mind, a verse that we should never "allow to speak for itself"/take by itself/take completely out-of-context from other parts of the Bible, because (as I think that you'd agree) doing so would almost certainly guarantee that we would not arrive at a proper exegesis of it, yes?

Luke 14
26 If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
​

--David

The word hate in this context is prioritise.

The Spirit does not bear witness to wrong understanding.