Understanding the New Covenant

[RND]

RND,
Good post above, thankyou . I think that is what Christ was referrring to in Mark is that the work of God even though it may be going against what is practiced on the Sabbath by the majority of folks is ok to do. His entire ministry was about doing His Father's business. A greater than Abraham was amoing the children of God at that time and they knew it not or refused to see it.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Yep that's so true JL. I really do appreciate the common sense of your posts.

 

[ricker]

I've already conceded the fact that the Sabbath has some ceremonial aspects to it. However, does that mean it's no longer a necessity as a new covenant Christian to observe it? I don't think so. The ceremonial laws that were given to the COI were a shadow of Christ's life and death on the cross. I believe we can see Christ in the Sabbath but nothing about the death of Christ fulfilled the necessity to rest from our work/s.

Christs substitutionary death for us fulfilled His plan of redemption thus giving us rest from our works.

The ten commandment law is given to us in basically two sections. The first four are commandments that deal with our relationship to our creator. The last six have to do with the way we deal with our fellow man. You can look at it as a horizontal apect and a verticle aspect to it in the way we relate to God and our fellow man.

The Sabbath stands near the center of the ten and is the last of the commandments that concern our obligation to God. It has to do with time and is uniquely different that way. All of the other commandments can be kept without the world noticing much about the observer but when we keep the Sabbath we stand apart from the majority of the world and that is how it's been since it was given. It's because of this uniqueness that the Sabbath commandment is a sign to the world and God at the same time that we are His people, His peculiar people.

It could be said that the first three are verticle, the center the ceremonial covenant sign to the Jewish nation, and the last 5 horizontal.

The texts in Lev 23 is speaking of the ceremonial/yearly sabbaths and the Sabbath of the Lord ( the 7th day of the week ) as well. However, they are distinctly different and were not treated the same. One type of sabbath was yearly, the other came around ever 7 days and was always referred to in the Bible as God's holy day. Essentially, I think the Lord was trying to impress upon the minds of those thru Moses in these texts that He was setting aside holy time for convocations and ceremonies of the sanctuary. He included the 7th day Sabbath as a comparison if you will for them to know how to keep these feast days as well. The children of Israel has been in servatude for over 400 years and has lost most of the cultural practices that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had passed down to them.

If the COI were basically unfamiliar with the Sabbath command, what sense would it make to include it as a reference point to the other Sabbaths?

We see God asking Moses in Ex 16,
28
And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
29
See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

In this case the Children of Israel were not accustomed to observing God's holy day and even before He gave it to Moses on Sinai God called the Sabbath a command and a law.

Good point.

The point I'm trying to make is this. The tests are instructions for the COI and they already knew and understood the sanctity of the 7th day Sabbath and God was giving them a comparison to go by for the ceremonial ones. That does not mean the 7th was a ceremonial day too, not anymore than not murdering , comiting adultery or stealing was ceremonial.

See my statement above.

Much of what we do even today in our worship is ceremonial. Even prayer can be ceremonial to many. However, just having a ceremonial aspect to it does not mean it's no longer in effect. That would be illogical and certainly not scriptural.

The ceremonial questions go back to Exodus 31, which has the most definite explanation of the Sabbath commandment in the Bible. To me it seems like a sign of the old covenant between God and the Israelite nation.

12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' "

The reason in my mind that you don't see it given to "Spiritual Israel" is there was no need to. It had already been given to man kind at creation , practiced thru out the entire Bibe including the acts of the Messiah HImself. We see Paul preaching in the synogogue on the Sabbath and a week later to a whole town of Greeks on the Sabbath. There is nothing in the new covenant that tells us not to keep the Sabbath conversely the primary thrust of the entire Bible from Geneis to Revelation was to keep it.

The Sabbath is never mentioned until Exodus 16, is spoke of a lot in the old testament after that and in the gospels, which was under the old covenant, and then it is barely mentioned in Paul's writing to the Gentiles or John's writings, and never in Revelation. The book of Acts speaks of it, but never commands or implies we need to rest on it.

You know, if it weren't for Exodus 31, I would be a lot more likely to agree with you about the Sabbath. It seems like such a clear statement of who, what, when and why the Sabbath command was given.
Thanks and God bless! Ricker

 

[ricker]

Ricker,

Why not give God a chance to demonstrate to you definitively whether the Sabbath still has a special blessing attached to it and whether we should still be keeping it? Why not give God a full month, keeping every sabbath as a day to honor your creator, not thinking of yourself but of God and spending meaningful time with Him. Do this, and after a month let us know how you feel about the sabbath. I don't think you will be disappointed.

This might worth trying. Time with God is never wasted.
God bless! Ricker

 

[RND]

The Sabbath is never mentioned until Exodus 16......

Genesis 2:2

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

#7673/shabath/shaw-bath' - a primitive root; to repose, i.e. desist from exertion; used in many implied relations (causative, figurative or specific):--(cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep (sabbath), suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Christs substitutionary death for us fulfilled His plan of redemption thus giving us rest from our works.

According to Acts 4:12 salvation has always been by Christ even in the old covenant. It was Christ who was the great "I AM" or "Yaweh" of the Old Testament and the author of the old covenant. The "Works" of man has never been able to save him. Every time a sacrifice was made in the sanctuary it pointed forward to Christ Salvation has always been by faith thru the grace of Christ.

The substitutionary death of Christ for us didn't do away with the requirement for a 7th day Sabbath rest. If it had we would have now a lot of scripture that would tell us just that. Maybe even entire books dedicated to it. Look at how much ink Paul put out on circumcision. Imagine how much he would have placed on a change of a commandment of God, of His holy day? God wants us to rest not only physically on the Sabbath but spiritually. Hebrews 4 makes it clear that this rest that God instituted at creation is something we need to labor to enter into. Each time we observe the 7th day Sabbath we do some major things. One, we recognize that God is sovereign and created all things. Two, we show the world we follow "The commandments of God" and by doing so are His peculiar people. This is a sign between us and Him that we are faithful to live righteously.

It could be said that the first three are verticle, the center the ceremonial covenant sign to the Jewish nation, and the last 5 horizontal.

Ceremonial aspects ,,,,,maybe , but not ceremonial law.

If the COI were basically unfamiliar with the Sabbath command, what sense would it make to include it as a reference point to the other Sabbaths?

Because God didn't spring all of His requirements on them at once. In Exodus 16 we see God telling them not to labor by going out on the 7th day to gather manna. Then latter on He used the way the 7th day Sabbath was to be observed as an inclusio to show them how to also keep the ceremonial sabbath and feast days that were annual events.

The ceremonial questions go back to Exodus 31, which has the most definite explanation of the Sabbath commandment in the Bible. To me it seems like a sign of the old covenant between God and the Israelite nation.

All ex 31 really tells us is that the Sabbath was a sign between God and the COI thru out all generations. There's nothing here that says the Sabbath was part of the ceremonial laws or anything like that. If you look at the entire Bible and realize that the 7th day Sabbath will be kept in the earth made new in a celetial Israelite City before the thrown of God in a sanctuary the COI patterned their sanctuary after. The inhabitants will sing the song of Moses, an Israelite amoung the 144,000 all taken out of the twelve tribes of "Spiritual Israel." It kind of makes sense to want to become a Jew like Paul says we need to become in Romans 2. One that is cicumcized in the heart and not necessarily a jew by birth. As a matter of fact no one will stand in that holy City unless they are an Israelite.

The Sabbath is never mentioned until Exodus 16, is spoke of a lot in the old testament after that and in the gospels, which was under the old covenant, and then it is barely mentioned in Paul's writing to the Gentiles or John's writings, and never in Revelation. The book of Acts speaks of it, but never commands or implies we need to rest on it.

You know, if it weren't for Exodus 31, I would be a lot more likely to agree with you about the Sabbath. It seems like such a clear statement of who, what, when and why the Sabbath command was given.
Thanks and God bless! Ricker

The original language in Gen 2:1-3 tells us that God "Shabbathed" which is a mention of the "Sabbath" at creation. So it was mentioned that way long before Ex 16.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[sentipente]

Genesis 2:2

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

You seem to make no difference between "rested" and "rested from his work." What do you suggest that he did on the day after the seventh day? Did he start working again? Is that your position?

 

[reddogs]

You seem to make no difference between "rested" and "rested from his work." What do you suggest that he did on the day after the seventh day? Did he start working again? Is that your position?

The next day He went and created another galaxy......

We'll ask that question when we talk with Him...

 

[sentipente]

The next day He went and created another galaxy......

We'll ask that question when we talk with Him...

Or you could admit that your position on the Sabbath does not fit into the story of Creation. He rested from ALL His work. The Bible is not a munitions factory where you go to find ammunition to fight your doctrinal battles. Don't ignore the facts that are staring at you in the text. Moses was writing a long time after the event and the seventh day is the only that lacks the evening and morning equation. Those are not insignificant facts. The Sabbath is not in Genesis nor does a Sabbath in Eden make any sense.

 

[RND]

You seem to make no difference between "rested" and "rested from his work."

In relation to what Genesis 2:2 is stating there was no difference. Also, I was simply pointing out that the "sabbath" was indeed mentioned before Exodus 16.

God made the first "sabbath" and rested on it.

What do you suggest that he did on the day after the seventh day?

I have no idea. He may have done laundry and ironed a few shirts.

Did he start working again?

Evidently.

Is that your position?

What do you think?

 

[ricker]

According to Acts 4:12 salvation has always been by Christ even in the old covenant. It was Christ who was the great "I AM" or "Yaweh" of the Old Testament and the author of the old covenant. The "Works" of man has never been able to save him. Every time a sacrifice was made in the sanctuary it pointed forward to Christ Salvation has always been by faith thru the grace of Christ.

Like I said, Jesus fulfilled His plan of redemtion by dying on the cross. The ceremonial Sabbath rest looked forward to this.

The substitutionary death of Christ for us didn't do away with the requirement for a 7th day Sabbath rest. If it had we would have now a lot of scripture that would tell us just that. Maybe even entire books dedicated to it. Look at how much ink Paul put out on circumcision. Imagine how much he would have placed on a change of a commandment of God, of His holy day?

This is your hypothesis. You know that circumcision was the entrance sign for the keeping of the law, right?

God wants us to rest not only physically on the Sabbath but spiritually. Hebrews 4 makes it clear that this rest that God instituted at creation is something we need to labor to enter into. Each time we observe the 7th day Sabbath we do some major things. One, we recognize that God is sovereign and created all things. Two, we show the world we follow "The commandments of God" and by doing so are His peculiar people. This is a sign between us and Him that we are faithful to live righteously.

The keeping of the Sabbath could well be thought of in the way you put it here.

Ceremonial aspects ,,,,,maybe , but not ceremonial law.

Ceremonial sign of a covenant?

Because God didn't spring all of His requirements on them at once. In Exodus 16 we see God telling them not to labor by going out on the 7th day to gather manna. Then latter on He used the way the 7th day Sabbath was to be observed as an inclusio to show them how to also keep the ceremonial sabbath and feast days that were annual events.

You could be right here.

All ex 31 really tells us is that the Sabbath was a sign between God and the COI thru out all generations. There's nothing here that says the Sabbath was part of the ceremonial laws or anything like that.

It says covenant with them also. I'm still not convinced a sign given to a specific nation can be a moral law for everyone for all time. Shouldn't moral laws be for everyone, and not a sign or covenant for a specific people? Maybe I just have a mental block or something.

If you look at the entire Bible and realize that the 7th day Sabbath will be kept in the earth made new in a celetial Israelite City before the thrown of God in a sanctuary the COI patterned their sanctuary after. The inhabitants will sing the song of Moses, an Israelite amoung the 144,000 all taken out of the twelve tribes of "Spiritual Israel." It kind of makes sense to want to become a Jew like Paul says we need to become in Romans 2. One that is cicumcized in the heart and not necessarily a jew by birth. As a matter of fact no one will stand in that holy City unless they are an Israelite.

I guess the question is which of the laws given to Israel were nailed to the cross. I'm thinking there are laws you don't keep that are not specifically sacrificial in nature.

The original language in Gen 2:1-3 tells us that God "Shabbathed" which is a mention of the "Sabbath" at creation. So it was mentioned that way long before Ex 16.

God indeed rested on the seventh day. I won't argue that. I don't see a recurring rest mentioned, however, which is what most people think of when they think of Sabbath observance.

Keep talking Jim! I didn't make it to the local SDA church this last weekend,(my wifes birthday), but plan to this coming one.
God bless! Ricker

 

[PROPHECYKID]

PROPHECYKID said that there were no special sacrifices offered on the Sabbath. The passage that I quoted shows that there were. That was my point.

So cant I be wrong? Thanks Jim........

 

[ricker]

Thanks for your imput!

.
I do not understand exactly what you mean by a ceremonial sign. But the Sabbath Law is distinct from the ceremonial laws. Remember that with the ceremonial system everything has to do with sacrifices. On the monthly sabbaths special sacrifices were offered. God's holy Sabbath was not related to the offering of Sacrifices in anyway. Plus God bleesed and sanctified the Sabbath at creation. The Sabbath was kept before the 10 commandments were given at Mt Sinai by Israel. When the ceremonial system in the old covenant was clearly described in Hebrews there is no mention of the Holy Sabbath there. Remember too that the Gentiles kept the Sabbath as well.

What I mean is someplaces it seems as if the Sabbath command was given as the ceremonial sign of the covenant with Israel. It does not automatically follow that the sign would be the same in the new covenant. BTW the Sabbath is mentioned in Hebrews 4.

Can you point out where the Gentiles were commanded to keep the Sabbath?

What is ceremonial about the 4th commandment. If you read the 4th commandments it says nothing about sacrifices or anything like that. It just expresses paying homage to God.

Ceremonial does not have the same meaning as sacrificial. Were the clean and unclean washing rules given to Israel sacrificial in nature?

I

think someone explained this already and i agree with that person. We know that the 7th day Sabbath was not observed like the monthly sabbaths in terms of sacrifices and so on.

I disagree. Read what Sophia7 quoted.

Stoned to death because of the Civil law of Moses. Adultery had the same penalty as well. These laws dealt with the civil governing of Israel. An eye for an eye was a civil law. Jesus changed that. Spiritual Israel includes both Jews and Gentiles. When the Gentiles in the early church converted they kept the Sabbath as well. It was when the Romans converted that they observed Sunday out of convenience.

Civil laws, moral laws, ceremonial laws, sacrificial laws, health laws, spiritul laws. Who gets to decide what is what and what is still in effect? I thought you all thought God never changes and His laws don't either.
Seems like we are a lot better off by following the new covenant commands to love God and each other by the ministry of the Spirit instead of trying to sort out a bunch of old covenant directives given to Israel.

Yes I am sure some of the early church still kept the Sabbath. Nothing wrong with that. Could you quote some Biblical passages that suggest that the Sabbath rest was widely kept by Gentiles?
God bless! Ricker

 

[honorthesabbath]

Common sense (at least my common sense ) speaks of the sabbath from creation. Was there a specific command recorded saying that men were required to keep it? No, but neither was there a command to not murder but it still was a sin for cain to do such....

lets look at it from a common sense view. The Jews and to a lesser degree us today define a day as the "evening and the morning". We today, with the invention of the time piece, look at it from midnight to midnight but it still is a 24 hr period. Does God live by this "rule" of the earth. Does he live day to day? I think Peter is pretty clear when he says..."But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Pet 3:8" God does not live by our time restraints.

So, when God sanctified and hallowed the seventh day at creation, Did He do this for Himself or for humanity? It would make no sense for it to be for Him if He does not live in our time would it? But, wouldn't it make perfect sense for us? And, if it was done for humanity why would he wait until after the apostasy before the flood and then a number of years after the flood before telling only a small number of people that there was a day that He had sanctified? Why would God have not told Abraham about this since He was the "father" of this great nation? Why not start there?

Secondly, If the assertion of some is true that the sabbath was a Post- Sinai command and was not given before then, Does this mean that the seventh day became holy only after it was given to the COI? When does the bible say the seventh day was sanctified? Just because most do not remember the seventh day does that make it unholy? Which begs the question... Once something is sanctified by God can it then be unsanctified? Who or what hows the power to unsanctify something that God sanctified? Is there anywhere in the bible that says that God unsanctified the seventh day?

Thirdly, I want to focus on one specific word Jesus used when speaking of the sabbath...

Mark 2:27-28
27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

What does the word "for" signify? It means it was not against man, it was meant to be a blessing to him. It still boggles my mind why anyone, once they understand the true meaning of the Sabbath would ever argue against it and say it means nothing to us today? I believe it was Icedragon who even came this conclusion but admitted he didn't want to give it up! Why do people want to try so hard to nullify what God has given FOR us as a blessing, so that we may remember that we are nothing without Him and everything with Him? His our creator and savior, one does not nullify the other and neither is one more important than the other. But, the sabbath reminds us of both Him who created us and Him who saves us and sanctifies us! Why do we need any other day? But, you may say, we don't need any day now for we are at rest in Jesus. Ahhh, is one who says this any better than the Jews of old? Did the Jews of old not have many more miraculous signs of God with them, yet they turned from God to follow strange gods? One question... Do you still stumble and fall? Can you claim to be a perfect rest in Jesus if you still turn from Him at times and go your own way? If this is true the sabbath is just for you! To remind you just as the COI needed a reminder of who created them, saved them, and sanctfied them.

Excellent reasoning LOVE--great post! Such a shame some will regard it not.

 

[sentipente]

So, when God sanctified and hallowed the seventh day at creation, Did He do this for Himself or for humanity?

Are you certain that God did what you just claimed He did or are you just repeating what Moses wrote? How do you distinguish between the evening and the morning? How can you have evening when you don't have a sun in the sky? Why is it so difficult for you to see the obvious? The reason is simple. You are not trying to discover the truth but looking for ammunition in the Bible to support what you believe. From that perspective you can prove anything from the Bible.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Like I said, Jesus fulfilled His plan of redemtion by dying on the cross. The ceremonial Sabbath rest looked forward to this.

True ceremonial sabbaths did for sure. Since the 7th day Sabbath or Day of the Lord was instituted before sin entered the world it did not. At least not when it was created because there was no need for salvation until sin entered the world.

This is your hypothesis. You know that circumcision was the entrance sign for the keeping of the law, right?[]

Yes and we still need to be circumcized in our hearts of flesh now. Outward circumcision was a sign back then inward circumcision is the sign now just as the laws are now written on our hearts now instead of on stone.

Ceremonial sign of a covenant?

The covenant God made with Israel involved Sabbath observance there is no doubt. However, it went far beyond that and included a host of other things that had to do with righteous living and the sacrificial system which was a temporary thing pointing to the ultimate sacrifice of God on the cross.

When you keep saying "ceremonial sign" I get the feeling you are placing Sabbath observance into a narrow range of orchestated ceremonies that were meant only for and practiced once a week by the ancient nation of Israel . The observance of the Sabbath is much more than that and even though there has probably always been special things to be done on the Sabbath even in the ceremonies of old and now in our worship services it is not just a ceremonial sign. It's a day to celebrate our creation and to glorify Him that made the heaven and the earth and the fountains of waters. It's a day to rest not only from our physical labors but to remind us that we are to rest from our labors to save ourselves as well. We need the 7th day Sabbath more today than ever before.

It says covenant with them also. I'm still not convinced a sign given to a specific nation can be a moral law for everyone for all time. Shouldn't moral laws be for everyone, and not a sign or covenant for a specific people? Maybe I just have a mental block or something.

In the Bible it tells us that we should keep all of the commandments. The text that is very clear for that is James 2:10 then we have Deut. 27:26 saying basically the same thing. The text I feel is the clearest on the Sabbath is in Mark where Christ specifically says the Sabbath was made for man. There is nothing in God's laws that we should throw out but those that were nailed to the cross.

I guess the question is which of the laws given to Israel were nailed to the cross. I'm thinking there are laws you don't keep that are not specifically sacrificial in nature.

There were also laws that were specifically given for Israel at that time only. Things that had to do with the way they lived and the culture they had at that time. One law was the beard law. I am kind of researching that right now. If you want to check out one web-site I found on this look here:

http://www.bibleresearch.org/articles/alw5.htm

Anyway, there were a lot of things that may or may not be something we need to be doing now that God commanded Israel to do. However, the ten commandments were for all mankind and they apply to us today.

God indeed rested on the seventh day. I won't argue that. I don't see a recurring rest mentioned, however, which is what most people think of when they think of Sabbath observance.

Keep talking Jim! I didn't make it to the local SDA church this last weekend,(my wifes birthday), but plan to this coming one.
God bless! Ricker

I see a recurring weekly cycle in which the 7th day comes every seventh day of the week. If God made it holy and set it aside for holy use at creation and only intended for it to be used on one occasion why do we see it mentioned in Ex 20: 8-11 as the memorial of creation? Why do we see it mentioned in nearly every book of the Bible? Why did the Son of God keep it while He was here? Why is it mentioned in the new earth?

God Bless you brother,
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

How do you distinguish between the evening and the morning? How can you have evening when you don't have a sun in the sky?

This is a legitimate question. God is pure energy and the Bible says He is a consuming fire, Deut 4:24, Heb 12:29. Where ever God is at it is illuminated. Before the sun was created the evening was created when the earth rotated on it's axis around as God stayed over it in a stationary location.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[RND]

How can you have evening when you don't have a sun in the sky?

Isn't that what "evening" is, the obvious absence of the sun in the sky? If the sun was in the sky wouldn't it be "day?"

Gen 1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Apparently, God is so good, He can make things even in the dark.

Gen 1:1 ¶
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

 

[sentipente]

I wish you guys would take some time to read what you write and consider the implications. Why are your beliefs more important than the truth?

 

[RND]

Why are your beliefs more important than the truth?

You mean Genesis isn't "true?" Which leads me to ask, "How would you know?"

 

[sentipente]

You mean Genesis isn't "true?" Which leads me to ask, "How would you know?"

The same way I do anything else. I have no idea what the first question means.