Understanding the afterlife from a protestant/evangelical perspective

[Leuko Petra]

No, it's clear from Scripture that the angels in Heaven are not possessed of physical bodies...and neither are we after physical death.

Are you willing to test this according to the scriptures with me?

 

[Leuko Petra]

O.K., "alive in Christ" are "asleep" here,...

Notice, "in Christ". It is Christ Jesus that lives. As a follower of God dies, they do not suffer the second death, but rather "sleep" "in Christ", as they are also called "the dead" "in Christ" to be resurrected in their respective resurrection.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. John 6:39

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. John 11:24

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2 Timothy 4:8

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

 

[Albion]

Are you willing to test this according to the scriptures with me?

Sorry, no. This a discussion board, but you can freely promote Adventist theology on one of two "faith groups" boards with a lot of receptive folks.

 

[Leuko Petra]

Sorry, no. ...

I see. It shall be presented in any case to refute the lie of satan, which has the whole Christian world etherealizing satan, Heaven [3rd], the law of God, the throne of God and God Himself... into airy non-things and un-realities.

 

[Albion]

I see. It shall be presented in any case to refute the lie of satan, which has the whole Christian world etherealizing satan, Heaven [3rd], the law of God, the throne of God and God Himself... into airy non-things and un-realities.

Hmmm. The fraternal "explore together" come-on seems to have been shelved now that I showed myself not to be as gullible as was hoped for.

 

[Leuko Petra]

Hmmm. The fraternal "explore together" come-on seems to have been shelved now that I showed myself not to be as gullible as was hoped for.

The invitation was genuine, but refused. Now since it was refused, I shall present it to all which may listen, I turn unto them.

 

[Leuko Petra]

Considering, the "form of God" [Philippians 2:6].

Does God have "form" according to the scriptures? Yes. God Himself, Jesus, came down upon Mount Sinai, and touched the earth with His feet.

With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? Numbers 12:8

Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. James 3:9

For mankind was made in "the image of God" [Genesis 1:27, 9:6; 2 Corinthians 4:4, etc]; for Jesus is the "express image" of the Father, who is a "person":

Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Hebrews 1:3

And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. Exodus 33:23

And they saw the God of Israel: and [there was] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [his] clearness. Exodus 24:10

And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink. Exodus 24:11

Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 18:10

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire. Daniel 7:9

And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God: Job 19:26

There are many places in scripture which speak about this, and what Heaven [3rd] is like, and what the Angels are like, for they have Heavenly "bod[ies]" [Greek "soma"], and "flesh" different than mankind, for "all flesh is not the same flesh" [1 Corinthians 15:39]. We may also go throughout the scriptures amd consider all of the passages on Angels, and what they wear, what they do, what they carry, what they look like, etc.

For instance, go with me to Genesis 18-19. God Himself, YHVH, Jesus, came down with His two covering Cherub, and walked upon the earth, had their feet washed, and ate and drank with Abraham.

For instance, go with me to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and His Ascension into Heaven, even "this same Jesus" [Acts 1:11; the resurrected and glorified humanity], which will eternally be Human, eternally bear the wounds of His victory, went "up" into Heaven, not faded into the aether.

Heaven is somewhere, not everywhere. Notice the prayer, "Our Father, which are [where???] "in Heaven""...

...this has everything to do with the state of the dead, and the Resurrection and the True vs the false. Satan declares we are "immortal souls/spirits" that float away upon death, and yet they could not even begin to describe what such a 'being' looks like, or could manage to do since they are componentless.

God says otherwise, and tells us that we are living souls, which are the combination of the dust of the earth and His breath of life. In the resurrection, they which died in the Lord, shall be raised out of their sleep, and shall be like unto Jesus [raised with immortal "flesh and bones"] and the Angels, which also have Heavenly Bodies.

 

[shturt678]

I think you should ask yourself what the bible really teaches as opposed to what most people believe. The majority many times are wrong. What does the bible say about it. This is the question you need to ask and need to check out. Not what most people say. Of course, listen to the different views, but check the bible and see what it says.

My view is that firstly you need to understand life before you understand death. What did God do when he created man?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Most people believe that man contains a living soul. That's not what it says here. It says man became and was made a living soul. The New Testament agrees with this.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The Last Adam here is Jesus Christ. The passage explains that all of us now are made after Adam and bare the image of Adam so we are souls, but at the second coming of God we shall bare the image of the heavenly and have a different body, a quickening spirit.

The teaching among the majorty of Christians is that when you die you don't actually die, but you live on the spirit form. However, that is now what the bible says happens.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.



Job was constantly depressed and speaks about Death a lot because many times he thought he was near death. Here is Job speaking.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

These scriptures tells us that when a man dies his spirit, ghost or the breath of life goes back to God who gave it and his body decays and goes back to the earth. Job also tells us that man is not raised up from his sleep or death until the heavens be no more (this is the second coming of Jesus).

Listen to the prophet Daniel.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Compare this with John:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

I'm more of a Jn.5:28 kind of Protestant, i.e., "all in their graves (tombs)" meaning all the bodily dead.

 

[Leuko Petra]

... I'm more of a Jn.5:28 kind of Protestant, i.e., "all in their graves (tombs)" meaning all the bodily dead.

Please continue to read the context, for it says in the very next verse, "And shall come forth;..."

So, in that theology, there are those incorporeal man-shades descending from heaven, apparently not needing any sort of flesh before that moment, but now suddenly need it - in that theology weren't they already immortal, in heaven, what need of earth? What has this theology then for the wicked in their resurrection? Will it now be said that they 'ascend' from where they are erroneously ascribed to be and merge them also?

It does not say that they "come down", "come into", etc. The text clearly says "come forth", and from where the were, actually in their grave, dead "asleep". They are dust, in the grave itself.

Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Psalms 104:29

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:19

Martin Luther:

Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.



"...Protestants denied the Catholic purgatory. Luther taught mortality of the soul, comparing the sleep of a tired man after a day's work whose soul "sleeps not but is awake" ("non sic dormit, sed vigilat") and can "experience visions and the discourses of the angels and of God", with the sleep of the dead which experience nothing but still "live to God" ("coram Deo vivit").[4][5][6][7] ..." - Intermediate state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



"..."so the soul after death enters its chamber and peace, and sleeping does not feel its sleep" (Commentary on Genesis – Enarrationes in Genesin, 1535–1545).[36]

... However, the best known advocate of soul sleep was Martin Luther (1483–1546).[95] In writing on Ecclesiastes, Luther says

Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awoken, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.[96]
​

Elsewhere Luther states that

As soon as thy eyes have closed shalt thou be woken, a thousand years shall be as if thou hadst slept but a little half hour. Just as at night we hear the clock strike and know not how long we have slept, so too, and how much more, are in death a thousand years soon past. Before a man should turn round, he is already a fair angel.[97]" - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

​

Martin Luther on the State of the Dead - YouTube

 

[decent orange]

I don't think Protestants have a view on the after life. But generally, they are in agreement that the Catholic Church is to be protested.

Which is why they are called Protestants.

 

[Leuko Petra]

I don't think Protestants have a view on the after life. But generally, they are in agreement that the Catholic Church is to be protested.

Which is why they are called Protestants.

Actually the "daughters" of the "mother" are no longer in official protest anymore, they have come to terms...

Lutherans and Catholics:
Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

For more read here:
Unity among Christians - Anglicans, Lutherans, Orthodox, Evangelicals

The only body that officially protests the errors of popery, papacy and Romanism any more is the Seventh Day Adventist movement, there are individuals otherwise here and there.

 

[shturt678]

Please continue to read the context, for it says in the very next verse, "And shall come forth;..."

Excellent work! Jn.5:29, "and shall come out...." Grammatically, and contextually "all," thus coming out in one moment, shall appear as two classes: "they that did the good things" - "they that did practice the worthless things." Bodies do snooze, souls are wide awake somewhere. Note also the difference where Mr. Luther was amill. as myself and your premil., loosely speaking, i.e., historist premillennial view most Adventist agree to.

So, in that theology, there are those incorporeal man-shades descending from heaven, apparently not needing any sort of flesh before that moment, but now suddenly need it - in that theology weren't they already immortal, in heaven, what need of earth? What has this theology then for the wicked in their resurrection? Will it now be said that they 'ascend' from where they are erroneously ascribed to be and merge them also?

It does not say that they "come down", "come into", etc. The text clearly says "come forth", and from where the were, actually in their grave, dead "asleep". They are dust, in the grave itself.

Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Psalms 104:29

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:19

Martin Luther:

Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

Mr. Luther did the best he could with what he what confronted with in the same way, insignificant me, does with the Lutheran works, including graduating from a Lutheran Seminary School long ago which eventually dumped most into the nearest dumpster due to the modernization; Luther's work forward, collectively, with all the other Lutheran and even a lot of non-Lutheran non-modern works to 1929, I found on the money.

 

[Albion]

I don't think Protestants have a view on the after life. But generally, they are in agreement that the Catholic Church is to be protested.

Which is why they are called Protestants.

Another person who hasn't a clue why Protestants are called Protestants.

 

[decent orange]

.

 

[Albion]

I thought that was why they were called protestants. Because they protest the papacy. They are rebellious Catholics aren't they?

Why are they called protestants?

In 1529, a dozen years after Luther began his efforts to reform the church of his time, the German government announced a new policy concerning which churches would have legal recognition. The Lutherans protested that the deal cheated them and favored the Catholics. That is what gave them the nickname.

It had nothing at all to do with protesting the Catholic Church itself or Catholic doctrines.

This has been explained here a number of times before, which is why I didn't go into it right away, but of course there's no reason that you or others would necessarily have had the opportunity to read those posts.

 

[decent orange]

In 1529, a dozen years after Luther began his efforts to reform the church of his time, the German government announced a new policy concerning which churches would have legal recognition. The Lutherans protested that the deal cheated them and favored the Catholics. That is what gave them the nickname.

It had nothing at all to do with protesting the Catholic Church itself or Catholic doctrines.

This has been explained here a number of times before, which is why I didn't go into it right away, but of course there's no reason that you or others would necessarily have had the opportunity to read those posts.

oh

 

[Leuko Petra]

Excellent work! Jn.5:29, "and shall come out...." Grammatically, and contextually "all," thus coming out in one moment, shall appear as two classes: "they that did the good things" - "they that did practice the worthless things." Bodies do snooze, souls are wide awake somewhere. Note also the difference where Mr. Luther was amill. as myself and your premil., loosely speaking, i.e., historist premillennial view most Adventist agree to.

Mr. Luther did the best he could with what he what confronted with in the same way, insignificant me, does with the Lutheran works, including graduating from a Lutheran Seminary School long ago which eventually dumped most into the nearest dumpster due to the modernization; Luther's work forward, collectively, with all the other Lutheran and even a lot of non-Lutheran non-modern works to 1929, I found on the money.

Not desiring at all to be rude, may I ask, what is your primary language?

As for the passage of John 5:28; No, the context [locally and globally] speaks of two separate and distinct ressurections "the resurrection of life" "and" [in addition to; also] the "resurrection of damnation"; John 5:29. There are also other places directly mentioning this, the "resurrection of the just" [Luke 14:14], "and" also another of the "unjust" [Acts 24:15]. It is also designated as "the first Resurrection" [Revelation 20:5,6], and the other being the 'second' [otherwise there is no need to call the other the 'first' if there was only one] Resurrection; "the dead [wicked, unjust, unrighteous] lived not again until the thousand years were finished" [Revelation 20:5].

The two major resurrections [for there is one other, a third, being 'special' resurrection even before those Two to yet take place, as witnessed in scripture, to be discussed if necessary], since "the Day of the Lord" is the 1,000 Long period [that 7th Day, "the Last Day"; the earth being roughly 6,000 years old now; "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day" [2 Peter 3:8]], beginning with the 2nd Advent of Jesus Christ [1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, etc, does not touch the earth] and finally ending in the 3rd Advent of Jesus Christ [Zechariah 4, etc, comes down and touches the earth]. This is witnessed in several locations in scripture, but if you will go with me to Revelation 20?

Where are the wicked before they are raised from the dead?

 

[shturt678]

=Leuko Petra;62845285]Not desiring at all to be rude, may I ask, what is your primary language?

....decades ago about the veiled paradox regarding the diverse interpretations, using English, where each think they have the one valid interpretation .... sound familiar? .... and found it absolutely imperative to learn the ancient languages using my G.I. Bill long ago. I don't have the one genuine interpretation; however narrowed the scope of diverse to extremely diverse interpretations down to just a handful. This one time, no sarcasm or any rhetorical device, just trying to work with you.

As for the passage of John 5:28; No, the context [locally and globally] speaks of two separate and distinct ressurections "the resurrection of life" "and" [in addition to; also] the "resurrection of damnation"; John 5:29. There are also other places directly mentioning this, the "resurrection of the just" [Luke 14:14], "and" also another of the "unjust" [Acts 24:15]. It is also designated as "the first Resurrection" [Revelation 20:5,6], and the other being the 'second' [otherwise there is no need to call the other the 'first' if there was only one] Resurrection; "the dead [wicked, unjust, unrighteous] lived not again until the thousand years were finished" [Revelation 20:5].

The two major resurrections [for there is one other, a third, being 'special' resurrection even before those Two to yet take place, as witnessed in scripture, to be discussed if necessary], since "the Day of the Lord" is the 1,000 Long period [that 7th Day, "the Last Day"; the earth being roughly 6,000 years old now; "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day" [2 Peter 3:8]], beginning with the 2nd Advent of Jesus Christ [1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, etc, does not touch the earth] and finally ending in the 3rd Advent of Jesus Christ [Zechariah 4, etc, comes down and touches the earth]. This is witnessed in several locations in scripture, but if you will go with me to Revelation 20?

From the English way of viewing this passage, PERFECT! Going from the ancient languages FORWARD to the English, absolutely FALLACIOUS!

Where are the wicked before they are raised from the dead?

All the wicked souls alive and not so well now and later, will be matched also to their bodies to be cast in the lake of fire where they will have eternity to think about the ancient languages and unbelief. Now my usual sarcastic self LOL with you over a now LOL eternal matter. your a very sharp individual and "accountable" sir.