Understanding salvation

losthope

Regular Member
Dec 18, 2004
340
15
✟18,607.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
The parable of the sower describes four different ways of responding to the gospel message. I am asking about those who are rocky ground, accepting the message but unable to sustain it because they are not rooted, and those who are thorny ground, who also accept the message but lose faith when other things in their life take over.

Both of these people accept the message and become believers, for a while. Then later they are no longer believers. I am trying to understand what happens to them, spiritually.

Are these people saved? They made a commitment to God but are no longer practising their faith. Did they become saved at the moment they first believed, asked for forgiveness and offered their life to God? They and their Christian friends may well have thought that they were saved then. Or were they never really saved in the first place? Might the parable imply that salvation takes time, or that it requires more than simply accepting the gospel message?
 

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The parable of the sower describes four different ways of responding to the gospel message. I am asking about those who are rocky ground, accepting the message but unable to sustain it because they are not rooted, and those who are thorny ground, who also accept the message but lose faith when other things in their life take over.

Both of these people accept the message and become believers, for a while. Then later they are no longer believers. I am trying to understand what happens to them, spiritually.

Are these people saved? They made a commitment to God but are no longer practising their faith. Did they become saved at the moment they first believed, asked for forgiveness and offered their life to God? They and their Christian friends may well have thought that they were saved then. Or were they never really saved in the first place? Might the parable imply that salvation takes time, or that it requires more than simply accepting the gospel message?
It is a warning, that even if we begin in faith with zeal, the path may prove too much for us to endure. Endure is a good word. Jesus said "my father is the vine dresser, and I am the true vine. Those who produce fruit are pruned to produce more, and those who do not produce fruit are cut off. Therefore, remain in me.". Yet even if we know there is thorns or shallow soil, it can be cultivated. The ones that fell on the path or where the birds ate them though, are not even capable of growing at all.
 
Upvote 0

grasping the after wind

That's grasping after the wind
Jan 18, 2010
19,458
6,354
Clarence Center NY USA
✟237,637.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The parable of the sower describes four different ways of responding to the gospel message. I am asking about those who are rocky ground, accepting the message but unable to sustain it because they are not rooted, and those who are thorny ground, who also accept the message but lose faith when other things in their life take over.

Both of these people accept the message and become believers, for a while. Then later they are no longer believers. I am trying to understand what happens to them, spiritually.

Are these people saved? They made a commitment to God but are no longer practising their faith. Did they become saved at the moment they first believed, asked for forgiveness and offered their life to God? They and their Christian friends may well have thought that they were saved then. Or were they never really saved in the first place? Might the parable imply that salvation takes time, or that it requires more than simply accepting the gospel message?

Maybe the parable isn't about salvation. Maybe it is about the response to the word.
 
Upvote 0

paul1149

that your faith might rest in the power of God
Supporter
Mar 22, 2011
8,460
5,268
NY
✟674,364.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Then later they are no longer believers
The soil with weeds "becomes unfruitful". Saying salvation is lost is more than we have justification for.

But as to the rocky soil, the parable is not given fatalistically, to condemn. It is given to clarify, warn and exhort. Around here we have stone walls surrounding every acre or so. The farmers found soil that was rich, but which needed the rocks pulled out of it in order to be plowable. And some of those rocks are huge. You do a little work outside and you begin to really respect how hard-working those early farmers were. They also were men of pride who built spectacular walls that have lasted centuries, out in the middle of farmland where only the crows, themselves and God could see.

We are the same way. I might be fertile ground one day, but then hit a rock the next. It means I need to get to work. There might be weeding to do, lest I become unfruitful. The parable is saying that we need to attend to the condition of our hearts, so that the Word can be implanted and bear fruit. Likewise, Proverbs tells us to take heed to the heart, for out of it come the issues of life.

People argue all the time about where exactly the moment of salvation occurs, and whether it can be lost. These arguments seldom have good fruit. We are given guidelines in the Word, but the final decision is God's. We can't see the heart, and we don't know what transacts in the final moments of death. Better, in my view, to take the parable and apply it to see what we need to do to come into right, or closer, relationship with the Lord.

Jesus did not come, and the parable is not given, to condemn, but to save (Jn 3.17). John goes on to say at 1Jn 3.20 that when our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts - and unlike us, He knows everything. There is no reason to "lose hope" in Jesus, because Jesus is always Faithful and True. Men are going to fail, but Jesus never fails, because His perfect love never fails. Do not give up hope. Jesus paid such a very high price to bring you back to the Father. He is not going to give up on you. Focus on Him, and salvation will come. It cannot do otherwise. The devil is already defeated. If you find yourself hardened, rocky or weedy, get in the Word, start turning to God, and work on it. Jesus specializes in changing the hearts of those that are willing, and He will do this for you.
 
Upvote 0

Steeno7

Not I...but Christ
Jan 22, 2014
4,446
561
ONUG
✟22,549.00
Faith
Christian
The parable of the sower describes four different ways of responding to the gospel message. I am asking about those who are rocky ground, accepting the message but unable to sustain it because they are not rooted, and those who are thorny ground, who also accept the message but lose faith when other things in their life take over.

Both of these people accept the message and become believers, for a while. Then later they are no longer believers. I am trying to understand what happens to them, spiritually.

Are these people saved? They made a commitment to God but are no longer practising their faith. Did they become saved at the moment they first believed, asked for forgiveness and offered their life to God? They and their Christian friends may well have thought that they were saved then. Or were they never really saved in the first place? Might the parable imply that salvation takes time, or that it requires more than simply accepting the gospel message?

Consider the audience. Jesus is reminding the Jewish religionists of what God foretold through the prophet Isaiah...that they would fail to hear, see, understand and receive Jesus Christ (Isa. 6:9,10).

The primary point of the parable is actually to express the assurance of the sufficiency of God's work of grace through the finished work of Jesus Christ, which was to bring forth a harvest of fruitfulness "exceedingly abundantly beyond all that we could ask or think" (Eph. 3:20).
 
Upvote 0

food4thought

Loving truth
Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The parable of the sower describes four different ways of responding to the gospel message. I am asking about those who are rocky ground, accepting the message but unable to sustain it because they are not rooted, and those who are thorny ground, who also accept the message but lose faith when other things in their life take over.

Both of these people accept the message and become believers, for a while. Then later they are no longer believers. I am trying to understand what happens to them, spiritually.

Are these people saved? They made a commitment to God but are no longer practising their faith. Did they become saved at the moment they first believed, asked for forgiveness and offered their life to God? They and their Christian friends may well have thought that they were saved then. Or were they never really saved in the first place? Might the parable imply that salvation takes time, or that it requires more than simply accepting the gospel message?

Matthew 7:13-23 tells us that the gate of salvation is narrow, and that many who thought they were saved were not. Jesus indicates that He must now you for you to be saved. Of course, He knows of everyone who ever has or will live, but He does not have Koinonia (fellowship, communion) with anyone outside of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So, only those who have a real relationship with Jesus through the indwelling Holy Spirit have eternal life.

Paul tells us in Romans 8 what the life in the Spirit is like, and at the end tells us that those who are in the Spirit cannot be separated from God by "... any other created thing". Many take this as teaching OSAS (once saved, always saved), but in context of the passage, I believe it means that those who are in the Spirit are always secure. In the larger context of the entire NT, other passages such as Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 (and many others) indicate that it is possible for someone to deliberately leave their relationship with Christ, reject the Spirit, and thus become lost again.

In the context of the parable of the sower, then, I think we see a gradation from lost and never found (the ground along the path), to lost then found to lost again (the rocky ground), to lost and found yet unfruitful (thorny ground), to lost and found and fruitful (good ground). All of it is based upon the condition of the heart, not just the mind, of the individual... so what is the condition of your heart? I think the fate of the hearts are clear: heart along the path (demonic interference, never even planted in faith), the rocky heart (accepted word, but withered under pressure, falls away), the thorny heart (accepted word, but choked out by distractions, unfruitful), and the good heart (bearing much fruit) are all clear.

As for those who once had faith and no longer practice it (perhaps you are one?), some may have fallen away permanently, some may only be backsliding and will one day return, and some may have never really been known by/known Jesus in a real way... many people have intellectual assent to certain teachings, yet they never truly give their heart and are never really in relationship with Jesus. James says the demons believe, and are afraid, but they are not saved. One of the primary signs that someone who thinks they are saved may not be really, is that they will have been trying to earn good standing before God by doing good works. Don't get me wrong, though, Christians are commanded to do good works by Jesus Himself.

Confused yet?

For the unsaved who believe in God, they think they must always strive to be good enough for God to accept them into heaven. They will always strive in vain, because only a lifetime of flawless perfection is good enough for a perfectly good, perfectly righteous, and perfectly just God. Even one failure to be perfectly righteous condemns them before a perfectly just judge. Think that's harsh? Think of it this way... try telling a judge that you have only broke the law this once, so you shouldn't be punished for it. The judge, if he/she is truly just, will take your otherwise good behavior into account in sentencing, but you will still be convicted as guilty of the crime. So it is with God (see Luke 12), some will receive a more severe punishment than others.

For the saved, our flawed and failed life is cast aside and replaced with the perfectly sinless life of Jesus Christ when we place our faith in Him. God, in His mercy and love, knowing that no fallen human could ever live a life of sinless perfection because we are born separated from His Spirit, has provided a way for man to be forgiven and made acceptable by faith in Jesus' perfect life, death in our place, and resurrection. Once someone places their complete trust (faith) in Jesus Christ for salvation, that is THE END for them trying to earn the good favor of God, because now when God looks upon them, He chooses to see the righteousness (perfect life) of Jesus instead of their failure. God is then able to look upon us with love and grace and blessing (as opposed to anger and disgust at our sin), and 1 John 3 tells us He adopts us as His own children. He places His Holy Spirit in our hearts so we can be in a true relationship with Him through Jesus. We are then given good works to do, not to earn anything from God, but we do them out of thankfulness for the perfect righteousness God has already given us in Jesus.

So, a Christian who truly understands the gospel will NOT be trying to earn God's good will... they know they already have it.

Hope this helps, sorry so long.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I think the fate of the hearts are clear: heart along the path (demonic interference, never even planted in faith), the rocky heart (accepted word, but withered under pressure, falls away), the thorny heart (accepted word, but choked out by distractions, unfruitful), and the good heart (bearing much fruit) are all clear.
I would like to check with your understanding of this, to see if we have an inconsistency or misunderstanding, since my experience of horticulture has led me to understand the application of this parable slightly different to what you have stated.

A plant growing in shallow or rocky soil has little room for it's root structure to expand. Some plants cannot survive if the soil is too rocky or shallow, because their nutritional needs are not met, or the soil that they do have, cannot sustain moisture between replenishings. So some plants can survive in some such environments while others can't. Paul mentioned above, that rocky ground can be worked on, to produce more fertile soil. I also drew from another parable the shallow ground, which in the same way, can be dug over and cultivated to produce deep, rich loam. The key to consider though, is that every plant has a will to survive, and if the conditions are right, it will thrive. Humans are the masters of changing their surroundings, so bring in the parable of the pearl of great price, we see there is not need to think that someone with rocky or shallow ground is a lost cause.

If you observe plants growing among thorns, you will notice a few things. Thorns are a tough plant, they are prolific and dominant. They deter humans and animals because they know how to hurt them. If a human is determined to deal with thorns, for example if someone wants to eat blackberries, it requires a great deal of care. So if someone is dealing with a Christian who has thorny soil, the person needs to exercise a great deal of care, otherwise they will be hurt. The problem is that people who are not living within their spirit, they are generally going to get hurt, because they are not in fellowship with The Lord. Those who remain in Him have Him within them, and He is greater than whoever is in the world. Thorns can be carefully eradicated too. Yet, just as with a plant that may whither in rocky ground, if the thorns are allowed to overcome the cropping plants, they can smother and steal the resources (sunlight, nutrients, water).

These two states of the land have in common they are useful, but they require cultivation, because they are wild environments, they need to be subdued (Genesis 1:28).

I reckon you will agree with this, but I was not entirely certain as you seemed to say there was no hope for people of this position when they hear The Word. If that is what you believe, I would need to wonder, which Christian can you point to that has not had to move some rocks or cut down some thorns?
As for those who once had faith and no longer practice it (perhaps you are one?), some may have fallen away permanently, some may only be backsliding and will one day return, and some may have never really been known by/known Jesus in a real way...
I am viewing those in context of this parable, as ones who sprang up for a while but have whithered away and died, or have been choked. Either way, The Word is not living within them and they require a new seed to take root that can grow into a crop to become that abundance of life that we can only have in Christ.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The parable of the sower describes four different ways of responding to the gospel message. I am asking about those who are rocky ground, accepting the message but unable to sustain it because they are not rooted, and those who are thorny ground, who also accept the message but lose faith when other things in their life take over.

Both of these people accept the message and become believers, for a while. Then later they are no longer believers. I am trying to understand what happens to them, spiritually.

Are these people saved? They made a commitment to God but are no longer practising their faith. Did they become saved at the moment they first believed, asked for forgiveness and offered their life to God? They and their Christian friends may well have thought that they were saved then. Or were they never really saved in the first place? Might the parable imply that salvation takes time, or that it requires more than simply accepting the gospel message?

Matthew 13:20-21
20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.


It seems pretty clear to me that this sort of hearer of the Gospel is one who responds emotionally to it but does allow the truth of the Gospel to penetrate deeply into their mind and heart. The "stony ground" person is joyful at the kindness, grace and love of God revealed to them in the Gospel, but has not been touched by the whole of the Gospel as the woman in Luke 7:36-48 was. The Gospel will fill the one who truly hears it and understands it with a variety of emotions that range from humiliation and shame to love and joy. To respond only with joy to the Gospel indicates that the hearer has not really comprehended the full message of the Gospel, which condemns and threatens before it offers salvation. And when this is the case, the shallow hold the Gospel has taken on such a person will not endure testing.

This part of Jesus' parable is not suggesting that your salvation rests upon your capacity to preserve it. Such an idea runs totally contrary to the Bible's teaching on justification, and grace, and identification with Christ, and the many places in Scripture which tell us very explicitly that God is both the Author and Completer of our faith.

What this part of the parable seems to be explaining is just what the rest of Scripture teaches: in and of ourselves we are unable to fully receive the Gospel and believe it unto salvation. Our salvation, you see, is God's work, not ours. He saves us; we cannot save ourselves. It is not the strength of our feeling about the Gospel, or the force of our resolve, or our capacity to endure that saves us. Our salvation is God's doing; it is a monergistic work of our Creator. And what God has worked in us, He takes the responsibility to preserve.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Selah.
 
Upvote 0

food4thought

Loving truth
Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I would like to check with your understanding of this, to see if we have an inconsistency or misunderstanding, since my experience of horticulture has led me to understand the application of this parable slightly different to what you have stated.

A plant growing in shallow or rocky soil has little room for it's root structure to expand. Some plants cannot survive if the soil is too rocky or shallow, because their nutritional needs are not met, or the soil that they do have, cannot sustain moisture between replenishings. So some plants can survive in some such environments while others can't. Paul mentioned above, that rocky ground can be worked on, to produce more fertile soil. I also drew from another parable the shallow ground, which in the same way, can be dug over and cultivated to produce deep, rich loam. The key to consider though, is that every plant has a will to survive, and if the conditions are right, it will thrive. Humans are the masters of changing their surroundings, so bring in the parable of the pearl of great price, we see there is not need to think that someone with rocky or shallow ground is a lost cause.

If you observe plants growing among thorns, you will notice a few things. Thorns are a tough plant, they are prolific and dominant. They deter humans and animals because they know how to hurt them. If a human is determined to deal with thorns, for example if someone wants to eat blackberries, it requires a great deal of care. So if someone is dealing with a Christian who has thorny soil, the person needs to exercise a great deal of care, otherwise they will be hurt. The problem is that people who are not living within their spirit, they are generally going to get hurt, because they are not in fellowship with The Lord. Those who remain in Him have Him within them, and He is greater than whoever is in the world. Thorns can be carefully eradicated too. Yet, just as with a plant that may whither in rocky ground, if the thorns are allowed to overcome the cropping plants, they can smother and steal the resources (sunlight, nutrients, water).

These two states of the land have in common they are useful, but they require cultivation, because they are wild environments, they need to be subdued (Genesis 1:28).

I reckon you will agree with this, but I was not entirely certain as you seemed to say there was no hope for people of this position when they hear The Word. If that is what you believe, I would need to wonder, which Christian can you point to that has not had to move some rocks or cut down some thorns?

I am viewing those in context of this parable, as ones who sprang up for a while but have whithered away and died, or have been choked. Either way, The Word is not living within them and they require a new seed to take root that can grow into a crop to become that abundance of life that we can only have in Christ.

Hi oi_antz;

Thanks for your input! I never intended to make someone think that there was no hope for them if they had fallen away. I myself went through a period of time where I lost my faith and abandoned my relationship with Jesus. I apologize to anyone who got the idea from my post that they could not return... I was indicating the current situation should they perish before their hearts changed. Thank you for helping me clarify that.

I think we may have one small point of disagreement, but I'm not sure... I do not think that humans can successfully cultivate/prepare the soil of their own heart apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, although we must cooperate with the Spirit in what He leads us to do (study the Bible, pray, recognize character flaws, etc.). That said, I believe that God is always at work in people's hearts, even well before they are confronted with the gospel. Wesley called that "prevenient grace". So God is working constantly and tirelessly upon all the hearts mentioned in the parable, seeking to prepare it for the gospel and later seeking to increase it's fruitfulness (John 15:1-5).

God bless;
Mike
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

losthope

Regular Member
Dec 18, 2004
340
15
✟18,607.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Thank you to all who have responded so far to my original post. I did not post with a view to discussing the idea of once saved always saved. Instead I wanted to investigate what really has to happen for a person to be saved. What is the difference between the new believers who are rocky ground, thorny ground and good ground? Is it simply a difference in their attitudes? In the way that they respond to God? Or is there a difference in their conversion experience? In the way that God responds to them?

Some of the responses suggest that it is the limited response of the people that led to their problems of rocks or thorns. Other responses suggest that God is involved as well.

Football5680 implies that the rocky and thorny ground represent apostates, people who did not endure in their faith. That may be true, but it does not tell me anything about why they became apostates.

Oi-antz and Paul1149 have written about how rocky ground and thorny ground can be improved by working on it. Agreed, but the ground does not work on itself to improve, it needs the input of the farmer. So in order to improve, does this mean that the person needs God to work on them? Or is this taking the analogy too far?
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hi oi_antz;

Thanks for your input! I never intended to make someone think that there was no hope for them if they had fallen away. I myself went through a period of time where I lost my faith and abandoned my relationship with Jesus. I apologize to anyone who got the idea from my post that they could not return... I was indicating the current situation should they perish before their hearts changed. Thank you for helping me clarify that.
I don't remember indicating that was the issue. But in this, I wonder whether you can reflect on the reconciliation you mentioned here, would you say that a seed was sown that took root, and that has grown into the faith you now have which was not there during that period of time where your faith was gone?
I think we may have one small point of disagreement, but I'm not sure... I do not think that humans can successfully cultivate/prepare the soil of their own heart apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, although we must cooperate with the Spirit in what He leads us to do (study the Bible, pray, recognize character flaws, etc.).
There is no disagreement here. My emphasis is that He wants us to grow, produce abundantly, yet we do have thorns and rocks in the way (you said character flaws, which I think corresponds to that). If we do not cooperate to subdue the land, it will stunt the crop, and in severe cases it can actually die. Yet, there is things that God cannot do that only we can do Genesis 6:3. Indeed, we cannot create faith apart from Him.
That said, I believe that God is always at work in people's hearts, even well before they are confronted with the gospel. Wesley called that "prevenient grace". So God is working constantly and tirelessly upon all the hearts mentioned in the parable, seeking to prepare it for the gospel and later seeking to increase it's fruitfulness (John 15:1-5).
I would describe that preparing as the sowing of seeds on the path. Though, even if the seed finds a crack in the path.. Have you seen what a strong plant will do to it? It will become stony ground. Notice John 15:3.
God bless;
Mike
Thank you Mike, my name is Anthony.
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Thank you to all who have responded so far to my original post. I did not post with a view to discussing the idea of once saved always saved. Instead I wanted to investigate what really has to happen for a person to be saved. What is the difference between the new believers who are rocky ground, thorny ground and good ground? Is it simply a difference in their attitudes? In the way that they respond to God? Or is there a difference in their conversion experience? In the way that God responds to them?

Some of the responses suggest that it is the limited response of the people that led to their problems of rocks or thorns. Other responses suggest that God is involved as well.

Football5680 implies that the rocky and thorny ground represent apostates, people who did not endure in their faith. That may be true, but it does not tell me anything about why they became apostates.

Oi-antz and Paul1149 have written about how rocky ground and thorny ground can be improved by working on it. Agreed, but the ground does not work on itself to improve, it needs the input of the farmer. So in order to improve, does this mean that the person needs God to work on them? Or is this taking the analogy too far?
I think that all of this is provided in post #12, which I wrote before I read this. If it has not given necessary clarification, please just mention the bit that isn't so clear.
 
Upvote 0

losthope

Regular Member
Dec 18, 2004
340
15
✟18,607.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Paul1149 wrote this:

There is no reason to "lose hope" in Jesus, because Jesus is always Faithful and True. Men are going to fail, but Jesus never fails, because His perfect love never fails. Do not give up hope. Jesus paid such a very high price to bring you back to the Father. He is not going to give up on you. Focus on Him, and salvation will come. It cannot do otherwise. The devil is already defeated. If you find yourself hardened, rocky or weedy, get in the Word, start turning to God, and work on it. Jesus specializes in changing the hearts of those that are willing, and He will do this for you.

Paul, thank you for this personal message. I appreciate that you believe these things. You say that if someone will focus on Jesus then salvation will come. That Jesus changes the hearts of those who are willing. I was willing, or at least I thought I was willing, but there was no change in my heart. I tried to focus on Jesus but salvation seemed to have passed me by. That is why I lost hope. Because these promises did not happen for me. Posting this thread is part of my search to find out why.
 
  • Like
Reactions: oi_antz
Upvote 0

losthope

Regular Member
Dec 18, 2004
340
15
✟18,607.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Food4thought and oi-antz have discussed what I think may be important aspects of my attempts to understand the parable of the sower. In particular, they have considered what it means to have soil contaminated by rock or thorns, the effect on plants trying to grow in such soil, and what might need to be done in order to make the soil more fruitful.

Food4thought wrote this:

Matthew 7:13-23 tells us that the gate of salvation is narrow, and that many who thought they were saved were not. Jesus indicates that He must know you for you to be saved. Of course, He knows of everyone who ever has or will live, but He does not have Koinonia (fellowship, communion) with anyone outside of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So, only those who have a real relationship with Jesus through the indwelling Holy Spirit have eternal life.

What you are saying here is that salvation is about what God does. Not only what God did 2000 years ago but what God does here and now. That what is required is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and therefore a real relationship with Jesus. And that there are many people who think they are saved but are not because they lack this indwelling relationship. Sadly, this step of God needing to act in response to a repentance prayer is usually omitted when Christians and evangelists try to explain the gospel message.

Food4thought then wrote:
In the context of the parable of the sower, then, I think we see a gradation from lost and never found (the ground along the path), to lost then found to lost again (the rocky ground), to lost and found yet unfruitful (thorny ground), to lost and found and fruitful (good ground). All of it is based upon the condition of the heart, not just the mind, of the individual... so what is the condition of your heart? I think the fate of the hearts are clear: heart along the path (demonic interference, never even planted in faith), the rocky heart (accepted word, but withered under pressure, falls away), the thorny heart (accepted word, but choked out by distractions, unfruitful), and the good heart (bearing much fruit) are all clear.

Are you saying here that the path never accepts the message, the rocky ground accepts the message but for some reason there is no infilling of the Holy Spirit and so faith cannot be sustained, the thorny heart accepts the message and has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but gets distracted, and the good heart has the indwelling and thrives? If so, then the thorny heart and the good heart are saved, while the path and the rocky heart are not.

oi_antz explained a little more about rocky ground:
A plant growing in shallow or rocky soil has little room for its root structure to expand. Some plants cannot survive if the soil is too rocky or shallow, because their nutritional needs are not met, or the soil that they do have, cannot sustain moisture between replenishings. So some plants can survive in some such environments while others can't.

The implication here is that if a plant is not rooted properly, it will die. This is consistent with food4thought saying that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is needed. Without that indwelling, the person’s faith is not truly rooted and their nutritional needs are not met. As I described my own experience in this situation; my hope died for lack of living water to sustain it.

As oi_antz and food4thought later seem to agree, dealing with this situation requires action from both the person and from God. They need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and this requires the person to be ready to accept the indwelling.

However as oi_antz suggests, there may well be people whose faith can survive in this environment even without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They may appear to be very enthusiastic Christians. But are they really saved?

Aiki also stresses the importance of what God does:
This part of Jesus' parable is not suggesting that your salvation rests upon your capacity to preserve it. Such an idea runs totally contrary to the Bible's teaching on justification, and grace, and identification with Christ, and the many places in Scripture which tell us very explicitly that God is both the Author and Completer of our faith.
What this part of the parable seems to be explaining is just what the rest of Scripture teaches: in and of ourselves we are unable to fully receive the Gospel and believe it unto salvation. Our salvation, you see, is God's work, not ours. He saves us; we cannot save ourselves. It is not the strength of our feeling about the Gospel, or the force of our resolve, or our capacity to endure that saves us. Our salvation is God's doing; it is a monergistic work of our Creator. And what God has worked in us, He takes the responsibility to preserve.


oi_antz also wrote this:
I am viewing those in context of this parable, as ones who sprang up for a while but have withered away and died, or have been choked. Either way, The Word is not living within them and they require a new seed to take root that can grow into a crop to become that abundance of life that we can only have in Christ.

Does this imply that there may be no point urging such a person to persevere with their faith, to pray, read the Bible and so on? If faith is dead, if they do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling, do they need to start again?


Food4thought also wrote this:
Paul tells us in Romans 8 what the life in the Spirit is like, and at the end tells us that those who are in the Spirit cannot be separated from God by "... any other created thing". Many take this as teaching OSAS (once saved, always saved), but in context of the passage, I believe it means that those who are in the Spirit are always secure. In the larger context of the entire NT, other passages such as Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 (and many others) indicate that it is possible for someone to deliberately leave their relationship with Christ, reject the Spirit, and thus become lost again.

It was not my intention to get involved in a debate on OSAS. However, thank you for this paragraph. It makes a lot of sense to me.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

losthope

Regular Member
Dec 18, 2004
340
15
✟18,607.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Food4thought wrote this:
As for those who once had faith and no longer practice it (perhaps you are one?), some may have fallen away permanently, some may only be backsliding and will one day return, and some may have never really been known by/known Jesus in a real way... many people have intellectual assent to certain teachings, yet they never truly give their heart and are never really in relationship with Jesus.

It could be that those who fall away or backslide do this because they have never really been known by/known Jesus in a real way. That I think was my own experience.

Aiki wrote:
It seems pretty clear to me that this sort of hearer of the Gospel is one who responds emotionally to it but does (not) allow the truth of the Gospel to penetrate deeply into their mind and heart. The "stony ground" person is joyful at the kindness, grace and love of God revealed to them in the Gospel, but has not been touched by the whole of the Gospel as the woman in Luke 7:36-48 was. The Gospel will fill the one who truly hears it and understands it with a variety of emotions that range from humiliation and shame to love and joy. To respond only with joy to the Gospel indicates that the hearer has not really comprehended the full message of the Gospel, which condemns and threatens before it offers salvation. And when this is the case, the shallow hold the Gospel has taken on such a person will not endure testing. Food4thought suggests that many people give intellectual assent to gospel teachings but do not give their heart and so do not have the important relationship. Aiki suggests that the stony ground person has responded emotionally to the idea of salvation but again has missed out on something important.

Taking all of the comments so far I wonder if the following explains some of what happens. Or am I still failing to understand?

In the parable of the sower, and in response to the gospel message generally, it seems that God acting and the person responding are both needed so that the person will have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and through this they come to have a relationship with God. This implies that if God has not acted, it does not matter what the person does, they have not found salvation.

In conversation between Jesus and a teacher of the law they agreed that the most important commandment was to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind”.

The person who only gives intellectual assent to the gospel may love with all their mind. But not their heart. They are not rooted in God: rocky ground. They may lose their faith. Alternatively they may or may not also involve their soul by trying to live a good Christian life and their strength with their resolve and persistence in believing, even though they unfortunately do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or a relationship with God.

The person who only has an emotional response to the gospel may love with part of their heart. But not all their heart, and not their mind. They are also not rooted in God: rocky ground. Again they may lose their faith. Or they may also involve their soul by trying to live a good Christian life and their strength with their resolve and persistence in believing, even though they unfortunately do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or a relationship with God.

Some people who are rocky ground will lose their unrooted faith. Other people who are rocky ground, and do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or a relationship with God, may manage to preserve an appearance of faith, an appearance that deceives themselves as well as others. Maybe there are churches with many of them.

This is part of the reason why I asked the original question about what really happens to the people in the parable of the sower. A concern that too many believers do not have a real relationship with God. Perhaps because they have not fully involved their heart, soul, strength and mind. Or perhaps because for them, God has not acted. Or not yet acted.
 
Upvote 0

losthope

Regular Member
Dec 18, 2004
340
15
✟18,607.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Another thought

Since writing my original post about the parable of the sower, another idea has come to me. When the sower scatters the seed, the aim is for all of it to fall on good ground. Not for it to be adversely affected by a path, rocks or thorns. I am asking then, do the three unfruitful sites represent collateral damage? Are they simply unfortunate consequences of spreading the good news of the gospel? Are these the people who will not find what they should in the Christian message? People who find the Christian message a disappointment?

You may respond that God would know who is ready to receive the gospel and who is not, and that God would know exactly how to approach each person. However, the gospel message is spread by people, people who are fallible and who may in their enthusiasm influence people who are not ready, leading them to think they are saved when they are not.
 
Upvote 0

paul1149

that your faith might rest in the power of God
Supporter
Mar 22, 2011
8,460
5,268
NY
✟674,364.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
What I suggest doing is putting aside all you've learned of the doctrines of man. As I said earlier, the Bible gives guidelines regarding these things, but the final determination, the judgment of the deep things of the heart, is with God alone. We hear one thing, then another, and we end up in confusion and unbelief. Take the preconceptions of the natural mind to God and lay them on the altar in faith. Also lay there your judgments about yourself. Make a new start with the Lord.

The bottom line is that the Father is not willing that any should perish. Why would He be, having loved enough to pay so high a price for our redemption? The offer is extended to “whosoever will”. There are no other qualifications. Even way back in Isaiah, under the covenant of the letter, He says “come let us reason together… though your sins be as crimson, I will wash them white as snow”. Would then this not be just as true under the covenant of grace?

Jesus can deal with anything you throw at Him. I have had many ups and downs during my sojourn. There was one period during which I was sure I had lost my salvation. But the Lord used them all for His good purposes. You cannot escape the love of Christ (Rom 8; Ps 139).

The Lord requires sincerity. But there was a man who cried out, “I believe, help Thou my unbelief”, and he was accepted. He requires willingness, but you can pray, “I am willing to be made willing”. If you mean it He will take it. He is meek and lowly, and His burden is light.

But it is necessary to persist and to never give up. Hebrews says we must endure and not shrink back, that only patient enduring secures the soul and the promises of God. The doubleminded receive nothing of the Lord, James tells us. They only lose time and opportunity. There is nothing in the world to go back to. If God is your everything, you will commit yourself to enduring no matter what it feels like. A lot of times those stones in our soil are emotional and mental barriers. But by grace, not mere self will, they can be overcome (Rev 2-3).

The fact is, you're already a believer, you just don't believe you're saved. But does that make any sense? If you with all your heart ask God for salvation, the whole enterprise becomes His responsibility. To doubt He will do so is, at some point, actually to judge Him. Sometimes we simply need to take God at His word (and He has indeed sworn to our blessing with a solemn oath), and put aside other opinions - including our own.
 
Upvote 0

Job8

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2014
4,634
1,801
✟21,583.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Maybe the parable isn't about salvation. Maybe it is about the response to the word.
That's the primary thrust of this parable. At the same time, if there is no fruit, that is evidence of no salvation. Genuine salvation must lead to genuine good works (Eph 2:8-10).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What you are saying here is that salvation is about what God does. Not only what God did 2000 years ago but what God does here and now. That what is required is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and therefore a real relationship with Jesus. And that there are many people who think they are saved but are not because they lack this indwelling relationship. Sadly, this step of God needing to act in response to a repentance prayer is usually omitted when Christians and evangelists try to explain the gospel message.
Wow, you have grasped it better than the very Christians who preach this way! Yes, to be saved (redeemed from sin), we must actively repent (that means, to acknowledge our sin as sin, and choose to do right instead), in order to have an innocent standing with God. An adjacent thread about sin in Genesis describes how Adam and Eve hid from God as soon as they did wrong, and as soon as Cain became jealous of Abel, his countenance fell. This falling of the countenance, and hiding from God is what we describe as the wages of sin: death. Jesus says "There is no condemnation for those that are in Christ", and also "those who do not produce fruit are cut off, therefore remain in me". St. Paul describes that "if we continue to sin deliberately after coming to know the truth, then there is no longer any forgiveness for sin but only a fearful expectation of judgement". This fearful expectation of judgement is what makes us hide from God, it is why we do not have the confidence to know that we abide in Christ, and this is what costs us our fellowship with Him: "if we claim to have fellowship with Him, yet walk in darkness, we deceive ourselves and do not live out the truth".
oi_antz explained a little more about rocky ground:
A plant growing in shallow or rocky soil has little room for its root structure to expand. Some plants cannot survive if the soil is too rocky or shallow, because their nutritional needs are not met, or the soil that they do have, cannot sustain moisture between replenishings. So some plants can survive in some such environments while others can't.

The implication here is that if a plant is not rooted properly, it will die. This is consistent with food4thought saying that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is needed. Without that indwelling, the person’s faith is not truly rooted and their nutritional needs are not met. As I described my own experience in this situation; my hope died for lack of living water to sustain it.
Matthew 13:45-46. If it grows again, nurture it, cherish it, treat it as the most valuable thing in the world. A lot of people need to do this more than once, since we learn as we live, by analyzing what went wrong.
As oi_antz and food4thought later seem to agree, dealing with this situation requires action from both the person and from God. They need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and this requires the person to be ready to accept the indwelling.

However as oi_antz suggests, there may well be people whose faith can survive in this environment even without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They may appear to be very enthusiastic Christians. But are they really saved?
I do not know if it is faith that survives. Of my own reflection, I can see that some belief has remained during those times, and hope, but there definitely was that fearful expectation of judgement too. The faith I have now is just as strong as it was when I first reconciled to Him, but I have more experience too, I have relaxed a bit (notice people who first off learn how real God is, are very enthusiastic and energized). I have a greater understanding now of how to preserve the faith, I have learned that I must follow His instruction to move those rocks and cut those thorns when He tells me it has to be done.
Aiki also stresses the importance of what God does:
This part of Jesus' parable is not suggesting that your salvation rests upon your capacity to preserve it. Such an idea runs totally contrary to the Bible's teaching on justification, and grace, and identification with Christ, and the many places in Scripture which tell us very explicitly that God is both the Author and Completer of our faith.
What this part of the parable seems to be explaining is just what the rest of Scripture teaches: in and of ourselves we are unable to fully receive the Gospel and believe it unto salvation. Our salvation, you see, is God's work, not ours. He saves us; we cannot save ourselves. It is not the strength of our feeling about the Gospel, or the force of our resolve, or our capacity to endure that saves us. Our salvation is God's doing; it is a monergistic work of our Creator. And what God has worked in us, He takes the responsibility to preserve.

oi_antz also wrote this:
I am viewing those in context of this parable, as ones who sprang up for a while but have withered away and died, or have been choked. Either way, The Word is not living within them and they require a new seed to take root that can grow into a crop to become that abundance of life that we can only have in Christ.

Does this imply that there may be no point urging such a person to persevere with their faith, to pray, read the Bible and so on? If faith is dead, if they do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling, do they need to start again?
Certainly not, but rather as Galatians 6 describes: restore them gently. It does not require a formula such as you have described here "read the bible, pray etc". Rather, it is sin that kills our faith. Galatians 6 is saying that if someone is living in sin (observable as their countenance has fallen), the ones who are of good spiritual standing with God should restore them gently, and be careful not to let the prides of the self/ego tempt them into sin as they do it. Look again at what I wrote, I do remember suggesting strongly that we should also pitch in to help move those rocks and thorns, by "sharing each other's burden", which is stated in Galatians 6:2.
 
Upvote 0