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Understanding Romans 8, why past tense?

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by zoidar, Apr 15, 2021.

  1. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Because God has decreed it, it is certain, as good as done.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  2. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    All that was necessary for our justification--
    declared "not guilty"--given right standing with God's justice, righteousness of Christ imputed to us--
    was effected in the death of Christ. It is applied to us by faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin, when we savingly believe (faith which God knows will persevere).

    We do not wait until we die to be justified and the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to us by faith apart from works (law). (Romans 4:5, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28)
    James is saying that we are justified by a faith that is not alone, it's accompanied by works, but it is only the faith, apart from works, that justifies (Romans 4:5, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28).
    Romans 8:28-30 does not state that.

    However, what is stated in Romans 4:5, Romans 3:21 and Romans 3:28 is that we are justified by faith apart from works.
    That is not what Paul teaches. Paul teaches that we are justified by faith, when we savingly believe,
    justified by that faith apart from works (Romans 4:5), and given the Holy Spirit to empower us to persevere.
    It is conditioned on true faith, which is obedient and perseveres.
    And God knows whether our faith is true or temporary, and those whose faith is true, he justifies by that faith when they believe, imputing to them the righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:18-19).
    Those with true faith, God justifies in the beginning, not the end, and gives his Holy Spirit to indwell them to effect their perseverance.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  3. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    No, as in Romans 11:2, Paul is simply referring to saints of old in former times who loved God and were known by Him.
    They were foreknown (previously known) by God, as in they had an intimate personal relationship with God in the past.
    We tend to look at it as God's knowledge, but it's more than knowledge. He knew them as friends
    Many scholars in the past held to this view, but not so much today
    We know from observation of God’s past dealings with those who love Him that He has a way of working things out for the greatest good.
    He is saying we know what is true of God today by observing what He has done in the past for those who loved Him.

    29 For those whom He foreknew,


    Notice the shift from the present to the past tense.
     
  4. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Well, what I see is that it's all about righteousness:

    1-3 -- no one has it, neither Gentile nor Jew, all are unrighteous, all righteousness is from God only
    3-4 -- righteousness in justification, imputed from Christ by faith apart from works
    5-8 -- righteousness in sanctification, through life in the Holy Spirit
    9-11 -- God's righteousness in rejecting Israel
    12-15--the Christian life, practical righteousness through obedience of sanctification
    16 -- closing
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  5. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Your correct but to be even more precise; Paul is explaining in detail why Israel failed to achieve that righteousness.

    Romans 9:30-32
    What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

    Romans is a narration on the failure of Israel.

    In addition, the last line of your post could be dismissed, '12-15-- our practice of righteousness'.

    Righteousness is not earned by us, it is a free gift, we already have the righteousness of Christ.
     
  6. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Those 'He foreknew' were the Jews.

    We can prove that those God 'foreknew' were the Jews with the following verse.

    Romans 11:2
    God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.
     
  7. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Right, but that's only chps 3, 9-11. That leaves 12 chps for other treatment of righteousness, yes?
    Right, but not the whole book, right?

    Only four of sixteen chapters are on Israel, right?
    Two kinds of righteousness in Romans:
    righteousness of justification - imputed, right standing with God's justice--"not guilty"
    righteousness of sanctification - in obedience through the Holy Spirit
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  8. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nothing, it looks clear to me.
     
  9. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I like this view... but how were these saints of the past conformed to the image of Jesus? How does that fit? It also says Jesus were to be the firstborn among many brethren.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  10. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Like I said to Renniks, I like this view, but what do we do with "conformed to the image of the Son". How were the Jews conformed to the image of Jesus? It also says Jesus were to be the firstborn among many brethren.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  11. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Might be so, but Is there maybe an understanding that fits better?

    Is Paul maybe talking about those Christians that have died, since they have been glorified?
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  12. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Well, weren't they conformed in the same way we are? By the testing of their faith, bringing perseverance? Does Jesus being the firstborn of many brethren change the tense? Paul can be hard to understand I'll grant you that. But he spends a lot of time looking backward at Israel and the saints in order to point forward at how God has reworked election. It's a repeated theme in his writing.
     
  13. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Let's take a look at it.

    "Foreknew" is God's "foreknowledge" here, not knowledge of deceased believers.

    God's foreknowledge, contrary to popular opinion (e.g., post #11), is not God looking down the halls of time and seeing in advance what man is going to do.

    Scripture presents God's foreknowledge as knowing in advance what he is going to do.

    Acts 15:18 - "Known to the Lord for ages is his work."

    Isaiah 48:3 - "I foretold (predestined) the former things long ago,
    my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
    then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass (happened)."

    See Isaiah 37:26; Acts 2:23, 4:28.

    God knows in advance (foreknowledge) what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.

    So those in Romans 8:29-30 are the elect, those whom he foreknew (decreed their predestination) from the beginning of time, all of them, OT and NT.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  14. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    All predestination, including of those future, occurred in conjunction with creation.
     
  15. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, ok John Piper. :)
    There are other interpretations.
    The word for foreknowledge can mean more than knowing beforehand.
     
  16. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    John Piper says the same? News to me. . .interesting.
    Scripture settles its meaning for me in Acts 15:18; Isaiah 48:3; Acts 2:23, 4:28; Isaiah 45:21.
     
  17. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The more I study the Bible the more questions I get. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. ^_^
     
  18. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    You're not, but I can assure you all of them are also answered there in harmony with all Scripture, if you are willing to take it as its word, understood in harmony with all Scripture.
     
  19. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are Reformed, right? How did you become Reformed?
     
  20. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Short abridged form:
    Study of the whole Bible, Genesis to Revelation, including deep dive into Leviticus; came out with my own consistent understanding of it, some of it perplexing to me, but it's what was plainly presented there; discovered a couple of years later to my delight that I wasn't completely off the rails, that I was in agreement with the Westminster Confession, so I decided I was a Reformation Presbyterian, but wouldn't part with my Southern Baptist heart.

    I do love the Reformation!
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
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