Understanding praying to saints

bbbbbbb said:

One tangential that has puzzled me for a long time is the apparent earthly location where certain saints are most apt to hear prayers, especially if one ignites a match and burns a candle in front of the statue representing that saint. Why is it that these individuals cannot hear prayers and answer them best in other places? Why do some believers make long and costly pilgrimages to their sites?

As for myself, I have yet to be disappointed by the unfailing intercession of my great high priest, Jesus Christ. I have yet to find a single need that He Himself is unwilling or unable to meet.

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So you never ask others to pray for you?

MrPolo said:

I have to agree with the others. Everyone who says such as you have espoused here do not offer explanation as to why Paul specifically asked others to pray for him. As my chart in the OP and explanation state, no one is going to another member of the Body of Christ INSTEAD of Christ.

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Yes. Where is that verse about praying in numbers? About where three or more are gathered....?

I go directly to God when I pray, but other times, I would like extra prayers in certain tough times, and it doesn't hurt to have extra prayers....especially from those who have finished the race and are up there right by Christ, praying continuously for the people of the world.

Dorothea said:

When I decided to ask some wonderful Saints to pray to our God for the healing of my son, a weight was lifted from my shoulders within an hour of my petitioning them. Their prayers are very powerful and wonderful.

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I was once bemoaning the fact that my parents had not given me a name that already had a saint (especially since my mother had badly wanted to name me Elizabeth, and my father vetoed it). My priest told me that I have a very powerful saint in the one that I have. I was having a hard time choosing between St. Katherine and St. Photini (the woman at the well)as my patron saint, but I woke up one day sensing that St. Katherine was praying for me, so I chose her, and am thankful I did, even though there are other women saints that I admire as well and ask for their prayers (as well as a lot of wonderful male saints). To me, asking the saints to pray for me is no different than asking my fellow parishioners and Christian friends to pray for me. We are all alive in Christ. Asking the saints for my prayers is done on top of praying to all the members of the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit).

I find praying to all the members of the Trinity, the Theotokos and the saints (especially my favorite ones that I admire most) really comforting when I am afraid or in tough times. It reminds me that I am not alone, because the Trinity is with me, as well as the Theotokos and the saints. They are cheering me on through all of it, and interceding for me when I fall. We truly are surrounded by a "great cloud of witnesses".

katherine2001 said:

I was once bemoaning the fact that my parents had not given me a name that already had a saint (especially since my mother had badly wanted to name me Elizabeth, and my father vetoed it). My priest told me that I have a very powerful saint in the one that I have. I was having a hard time choosing between St. Katherine and St. Photini (the woman at the well)as my patron saint, but I woke up one day sensing that St. Katherine was praying for me, so I chose her, and am thankful I did, even though there are other women saints that I admire as well and ask for their prayers (as well as a lot of wonderful male saints). To me, asking the saints to pray for me is no different than asking my fellow parishioners and Christian friends to pray for me. We are all alive in Christ. Asking the saints for my prayers is done on top of praying to all the members of the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit).

I find praying to all the members of the Trinity, the Theotokos and the saints (especially my favorite ones that I admire most) really comforting when I am afraid or in tough times. It reminds me that I am not alone, because the Trinity is with me, as well as the Theotokos and the saints. They are cheering me on through all of it, and interceding for me when I fall. We truly are surrounded by a "great cloud of witnesses".

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That's wonderful, Katherine, and exactly right! When I'm at the Divine Liturgy, I sometimes imagine seeing all the angels there, along with all the Saints in Heaven, who've gone before us, along with the Trinity and the Theotokos and St. John the Baptist, and everyone there worshipping with me.

Dorothea said:

That's wonderful, Katherine, and exactly right! When I'm at the Divine Liturgy, I sometimes imagine seeing all the angels there, along with all the Saints in Heaven, who've gone before us, along with the Trinity and the Theotokos and St. John the Baptist, and everyone there worshipping with me.

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I do that, too. Wishing I had the eyes to see.

Mary

I found a couple of wonderful quotes to share:


With these words of St. Justin before us, we might well ask ourselves if Orthodox spiritual life is even possible without the testimony of the Lives of the Saints. The answer to this, I believe, must be "no." True spiritual life begins when we live in Christ and Christ lives in us, right here on this earth. And the Lives of the Saints bear witness to us that the Life of Christ on earth did not end with His Ascension into Heaven, nor with the martyrdom of His Apostles. His Life continues to this day in His Church, and is seen most brilliantly in His Saints. And we, too, in our own spiritual lives, are to enter into that continuing, never-ending Life.

—The Place of Lives of Saints in the Spiritual Life, by Hieromonk Damascene.

If we live with all the saints (Eph. 3:18) by attentively reading their lives each day as we walk in the spiritual garden of the Synaxarion, we shall discover little by little those whom our heart especially goes out to. They will become our close friends in whom we love to confide our joys and sorrows; whose lives we love to read time and again, as well as to chant their troparia and to venerate their icons. These close friends will be the guides of our choice and a great comfort to us along the strait and narrow way that leads to Christ (Matt. 7:14).
Introduction to The Synaxarion: The Lives of the Saints of the Orthodox Church,
by Hieromonk Makarios of Simonos Petra, Mount Athos

St. John (Maximovitch - The Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco) himself wrote beautiful words about the Saints. These words well express what he saw as the essence of sanctity, as well as the blueprint of his own life. "Holiness is not simply righteousness," St. John wrote, "for which the righteous merit the enjoyment of blessedness in the Kingdom of God, but rather it is such a height of righteousness that men are filled with the Grace of God to the extent that it flows from them upon those who associate with them. Great is their blessedness; it proceeds from personal experience of the Glory of God. Being filled also with love for men, which proceeds from the love of God, they are responsive to men's needs, and upon their supplication they appear also as intercessors and defenders for them before God." [13]


General Information: Lives of Saints

to add:

I asked the elder, "Many times, elder, I hear people interpreting the same passage of the Gospel in a different manner. How can we know which is the correct interpretation? Is there a measure, a certain criterion we can use to judge?" He answered, "The Saints interpret the Gospel with their life."

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- Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain

Thekla said:

Ah, you must have mistaken your limited observations for the actual.
Candles etc. are not required when asking another for prayers !

As for Christ, He is all.
And even then, He used Apostles when He didn't even need to.

Even Paul exhorts us to pray for others. God knows what we need. Why would Paul make such an exhortation

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None of us deny such an exhortation and none of us can find any instance in the Bible where anyone consulted or implored the intercession of a deceased individual. The closest instance that comes to my mind was the incident in which Saul hired the witch of Endor to consult Samuel, who was quite dead. That incident was condemned as witchcraft, Technically, it was necromancy, which God has also condemned.

narnia59 said:

So you never ask others to pray for you?

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I rarely do, although when I do, I ask people, not with the belief that their intercession is somehow more effective than my own or any other person, but in the belief that if two or three of us agree on something God will answer (Matthew 18:19.20). Given the number of Christians I know personally, I have seen no purpose to ask an individual I do not know nor have ever met, much less a person who has died.

MrPolo said:

I have to agree with the others. Everyone who says such as you have espoused here do not offer explanation as to why Paul specifically asked others to pray for him. As my chart in the OP and explanation state, no one is going to another member of the Body of Christ INSTEAD of Christ.

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As I stated in my previous post, none of us disagree about Paul's injunction and none of us has yet to offer any biblical proof or endorsement of the practice of seeking the intercession of deceased people. I really think your thread has come down to these two primary conclusions.

Dorothea said:

Yes. Where is that verse about praying in numbers? About where three or more are gathered....?

I go directly to God when I pray, but other times, I would like extra prayers in certain tough times, and it doesn't hurt to have extra prayers....especially from those who have finished the race and are up there right by Christ, praying continuously for the people of the world.

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The verse you have in mind is probably Matthew 18:19,20. The difficulty with applying that verse to disembodied individuals is that it is impossible to determine whether or not they agree with you in prayer. At the very least, a living person can express that opinion and, if they agree with you, you can have that confidence.

It seems, imo, to center on the understanding of "dead"; a difference in understanding of the efficacy of Christ's work and what is His body.

Hey there Simonthezealot! You state this:

simonthezealot said:

oremus Bible Browser

Hebrews 4:16,

16Let us therefore approach the throne of grace with boldness, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

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among a few other things......I looked it up in my Bible and sure enough that's what it says! But the passage is not saying that the throne of grace isn't surrounded by angels and saints........see the Book of Revelation for this Scriptural proof! Ummmm...........

"Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." I few words different than the one you use, but I'll try to explain.....Let's see, God is asking us to draw near to His throne, where He is eternally.......that would be in Heaven and He is King there, and Mary is Queen! and the allusion to this fact is in one of the titles we use for her mentioned in the above Scripture, Mary, "with confidence." Now who else could I pray with but God's own Mother if I feel my prayers might not be quite what they need to be as I approach that throne with CONFIDENCE! My CONFIDENCE IS IN HER! So, "WITH CONFIDENCE" I give my words to Him through her. Does that make sense? Hope so. I'll go on, taking liberites here.......so fearing God as I should, I hope to obtain MERCY from that Throne where God is seated judging me as I approach through prayer.... Ummmmm should I fear God? He says I should! I am just a sinner and since there is help needed for me, at least in approaching His throne of Mercy, perhaps asking a few of His Saints to help me ask......oooooops......there I've gone and done it now...admitted I'm just a sinner and need lots and lots of help in obtaining the goal of my approach through prayer, the intercession of His Saints............so I think I'll ask with CONFIDENCE as the Scripture says, but my cnfidence is Mary's graces and I don't even mind asking through the intercession of a few more of His Holy folks, errrr Saints that is.............After all they are there as Scripture says surrounding His throne (please see the Book of Revelations for this proof) Now I don't know how you feel about God, but for me Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom! Does this make any sense? Maybe I could talk myself out of fearing Him, but that sounds reeeeeeally stupid to this gal, as in a dull conscience. oops I think I got off track and dinner's ready. Gotta go!

May God bless you and your household with love for all His Holy ones and may the peace of Christ remain with you.

Peace and all good,

Gail

P.S. I really don't understand why some folks throw away the help of His Holy Ones. They are there after all in Heaven.....the ultimate goal of our salvation........if I don't believe they're there, will it be long before I despair of much of Christianity in other regards? It's a package deal! Giving up praying to the Saints as well as God seems like I'd be throwing away a great big gift God gave me - the Church in Heaven!

simonthezealot said:

Necromancy

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Praying to saints is not necromancy. What makes you think that it is?

Ave Maria said:

Praying to saints is not necromancy. What makes you think that it is?

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To a Catholic and Orthodox it is just veneration no big deal. To a Protestant veneration is due to Christ alone so to venerate a supposed(because no one knows for sure where someone ends up) Saint is equal to worship. Just as a Protestant should not go into a Catholic or Orthodox church and tear down it's statues and Icons so too should Orthodox and Catholics should humbly not wear any Saint Medals and not pray to Saints if visiting a Protestant church(denominations vary but this is a good rule of thumb).

Ave Maria said:

Praying to saints is not necromancy. What makes you think that it is?

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Because the translators use the word necromancer to describe 3 hebrew words...to seek motion unto dead deceased.

H1875
דּרשׁ
dârash
daw-rash'
A primitive root; properly to tread or frequent; usually to follow (for pursuit or search); by implication to seek or ask; specifically to worship: - ask, X at all, care for, X diligently, inquire, make inquisition, [necro-] mancer, question, require, search, seek [for, out], X surely.

H413
אל אל
'êl 'el
ale, el
(Used only in the shortened constructive form (the second form)); a primitive particle, properly denoting motion towards, but occasionally used of a quiescent position, that is, near, with or among; often in general, to: - about, according to, after, against, among, as for, at, because (-fore, -side), both . . . and, by, concerning, for, from, X hath, in (-to), near, (out) of, over, through,to (-ward), under, unto, upon, whether, with(-in).

H4191
מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be)dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

Are those who are with Christ dead ?

Thekla said:

Are those who are with Christ dead ?

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did they die? yes