Understanding Holiness

[Minister Monardo]

We are not only counted holy, therefore, we ARE holy.

IN Christ. As an active member of His Body. It is only here that we can grow in sanctification and honor.

 

[JAL]

Sanctification is by the word and work of God,
through the working of the Holy Spirit.
2 Thessonians 2:
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,

17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

1 Thessalonians 4:
1 Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God;

2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus. (to obey)

3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;

4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,

5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God.

I already covered obedience. I said:

"This is not to say that you can get away with ignoring obedience. If you are constantly driving the Spirit out of your body by rebellions that grieve Him, you will never accumulate much holiness. But on the flipside, if you ignore Paul's summons to seek outpourings, you will never accumulate much obedience either!"

But regeneration (holiness) is passive. It is an instantaneous outpouring of grace. As such, all we can do to INCREASE our holiness is to wait upon the Lord for more such outpourings. You haven't covered the implications of THAT point.

 

[Minister Monardo]

In Galatians 3, however, Paul isn't dealing principally with conversion but with MATURATION (sanctification) - gravitating us to Pauline standards of maturity. And the Galatian error was to imagine that acts of obedience bring you there. Paul had to remind them that (reviving) sprinklings of the outpoured Spirit constitute the only route to maturity.

Are you sure of your reference? I just re-read Galatians 3 and find nothing to support this sprinkling of outpoured Spirit, negating the need for the obedience of the faith described in Romans 6, as slaves to righteousness by obedience to the Spirit.

 

[JAL]

Are you sure of your reference? I just re-read Galatians 3 and find nothing to support this sprinkling of outpoured Spirit, negating the need for the obedience of the faith described in Romans 6, as slaves to righteousness by obedience to the Spirit.

Ok now you're trying to deliberately misconstrue what I said. At least twice I've stipulated my stance on obedience.

 

[Minister Monardo]

But regeneration (holiness) is passive. It is an instantaneous outpouring of grace. As such, all we can do to INCREASE our holiness is to wait upon the Lord for more such outpourings.

Maybe reference this passage then.
Titus 3:
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

There seems to be a clear necessity to working by obedience to the Spirit. I don't follow this notion of passive regeneration of the Spirit. It is the Spirit that disciplines me to walk in righteousness and true holiness. The relationship must be active and ongoing.

 

[JAL]

Maybe reference this passage then.
Titus 3:
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

There seems to be a clear necessity to working by obedience to the Spirit. I don't follow this notion of passive regeneration of the Spirit. It is the Spirit that disciplines me to walk in righteousness and true holiness. The relationship must be active and ongoing.

Regeneration is not passive? Can you explain to me the technology of regeneration and how you accomplished it?

 

[Minister Monardo]

Ok now you're trying to deliberately misconstrue what I said. At least twice I've stipulated my stance on obedience.

No, I don't find support in Galatians 3 for your stance, or is it Andrew Murray's? Let me be even more direct, 4 decades of ACTIVE relationship with the Spirit of holiness contradicts what I am hearing from you.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Can you explain to me the technology of regeneration and how you accomplished it?

Again, I have no intention of using non Biblical terminology in any discussion of Paul's theology.
Regeneration by the Spirit is accomplished by chastisement, discipline that corrects our behavior as we mature in our relationship with the Lord..
Hebrews 12:
10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.

11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

2 Corinthians 1: 7 And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation.

 

[JAL]

Again, I have no intention of using non Biblical terminology in any discussion of Paul's theology.
Regeneration by the Spirit is accomplished by chastisement, discipline that corrects our behavior as we mature in our relationship with the Lord..
Hebrews 12:
10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.

11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

2 Corinthians 1: 7 And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation.

None of those verses contradict my position. Remember my statements about obedience.

What contradicts YOUR position, however, is your unwillingness to admit that regeneration is passive. When Paul says:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new"

He's not referring to something that YOU accomplished. To be born again doesn't mean, "I tried real hard to set aside my old ways" (even many atheists and JW's do that much). It means that Christ came into your heart and did a work of grace that you could NOT have accomplished. He made you into a new creation.

 

[JAL]

No, I don't find support in Galatians 3 for your stance...

No? Out of curiosity, how many times can a man be justified by faith, in your view?

 

[JAL]

@Minister Monardo,

You've shown contempt for Andrew Murray's opinions (although I never personally asked you to believe in him, contrary to your insinuations), but your statements confirm that he is right on target. Like the rest of the church, you are steeped in the Galatian error. You subscribe to a works-centered sanctification. Here's what Murray saw.

The Reformers recognized that justification is not by works. It is a gift received by faith. The error they made was to fall into the Galatian trap of sanctification by works. Like justification, sanctification is supposed to be a gift (passively) RECEIVED by faith.

What proves this is the passive nature of our initial regeneration/sanctification (minimal as it was).

Sanctification is a work of God, not a work of man. The only thing obedience can accomplish is to avoid driving out the Spirit by grieving Him.

Do you believe in any historic revivals? If so, what do you think happened to those people? What is a revival, if not an outpouring of holiness that is RECEIVED (as opposed to a holiness humanly ACHIEVED or ACCOMPLISHED).

 

[Minister Monardo]

No? Out of curiosity, how many times can a man be justified by faith, in your view?

Every time you open your mouth.
Matthew 12:
36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give an account of it in the day of judgment.

37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

 

[JAL]

@Minister Monardo:

Here's a good verse for the church:

"Will you not revive us again, that your people may rejoice in you?" (Psalm 85:6)

 

[JAL]

Every time you open your mouth.
Matthew 12:
36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give an account of it in the day of judgment.

37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

I'm not following you. In your view, Paul's doctrine of justification by faith is something that recurs every time you open your mouth? And if you happen to utter something bad, are you then unjustified by faith?

 

[Minister Monardo]

If so, what do you think happened to those people? What is a revival, if not an outpouring of holiness that is RECEIVED (as opposed to a holiness humanly ACHIEVED or ACCOMPLISHED).

It is received by actively seeking revival, by an expressed hunger and thirst for a fresh move of the Spirit. They didn't just show up at church one Sunday and surprise, the Holy Ghost poured out.
Acts 4:
24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them...
29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word,
30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”
31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

Jesus by the words of John taught to abide in the Spirit. The Great Revivals occurred when Saints tarried and prayed into a move of the Spirit.

 

[Minister Monardo]

I'm not following you. In your view, Paul's doctrine of justification by faith is something that recurs every time you open your mouth? And if you happen to utter something bad, are you then unjustified by faith?

We walk by faith. We add to our faith into the mature relationship by which we can speak Truth. If you utter something false the Spirit chastises, corrects, disciplines. This is the sure mercies of David, which is the covenant we operate under. The Holy Spirit leads us into a higher faith. We grow in Grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior. 2 Peter 3:18
2 Peter 1:
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,

6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,

7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

 

[JAL]

The Great Revivals occurred when Saints tarried and prayed into a move of the Spirit.

Exactly! Outpourings of holiness in response to prayer! Notice they didn't ACCOMPLISH this holiness. They WAITED in prayer to RECEIVE it. Biblical examples of this principle:

"How much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” (Lk 11:13).

"When Solomon finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple" (2Chr 7).

"Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised...They all joined together constantly in prayer" (Acts 1).

"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint” (Isa. 40:31).

"After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly" (Acts 4).

 

[JAL]

We walk by faith. We add to our faith into the mature relationship by which we can speak Truth. If you utter something false the Spirit chastises, corrects, disciplines. This is the sure mercies of David, which is the covenant we operate under. The Holy Spirit leads us into a higher faith. We grow in Grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior. 2 Peter 3:18
2 Peter 1:
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,

6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,

7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

You seem to be deflecting and dancing around the precise question I asked concerning how many times does the Pauline doctrine of justification by faith recur within the lifetime of a Christian.

 

[Minister Monardo]

@Minister Monardo:

Here's a good verse for the church:

"Will you not revive us again, that your people may rejoice in you?" (Psalm 85:6)

Psalm 63:
1 O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;

2 To see thy power and thy glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary.

3 Because thy lovingkindness is better than life, my lips shall praise thee.

4 Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name.

5 My soul shall be satisfied as with marrow and fatness; and my mouth shall praise thee with joyful lips:

6 When I remember thee upon my bed, and meditate on thee in the night watches.

7 Because thou hast been my help, therefore in the shadow of thy wings will I rejoice.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Exactly! Outpourings of holiness in response to prayer! Notice they didn't ACCOMPLISH this holiness. They WAITED in prayer to RECEIVE it. Biblical examples of this principle:

"How much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” (Lk 11:13).

"When Solomon finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple" (2Chr 7).

"Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised...They all joined together constantly in prayer" (Acts 1).

"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint” (Isa. 40:31).

"After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly" (Acts 4).

And it is by faith that we actively seek Him.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.