Understanding God...

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Kas(who is greatful for your paitence in this matter!)

Now that is imitating "tulc", find something original brother

By the way good questions... I suspect that the answer to Revelations will be that it is a dream, a vision of John, therefore Jesus' words in John's vision will be dismissed, MOST LIKELY!!! But I have an argument ready for that too. Not only the book of Revelations is a "revelation", others are too!

 

[ravenwolf]

Namely that God literally has a body?! Some of the greatest experts in Islamic law claim that God has a face and hands etc, and then we as Christians are ridiculed for teaching doctrines that are not reasonable. These Islamic scholars are claiming things about God that Christinas would never claim. So which doctrine is more unreasonable, that the One and only true God has a literal body, or that the One and only true God who cannot be seen nor ever will because he is so far beyond our ability to know or see etc, sent His Word to become a man to reveal Himself to His creation? Personally I think that the latter is far more reasonable and understandable.

well i only read the first post and i didnt really feel like reading the rest but i did want to make a comment in what was said above. I am not Islamic so I dont really know their point of view on God...but you also failed to point out that the Bible also talkes about the right hand of God, does that mean that it too is literally saying God has a right hand??? All of these holy books were written explaining deep spiritual truths , do you thinkj that its possiblt to explain something that is so beyong human comprehension, human intellect and language that anything written in these holy books are literal???i highley duobt it....these things trying to be explained in human langauge, i personally dont believe, can be literally taken, they are very , very symbolic and until these truths that are symbolized by these books...along with many other things, until they are truely realised for ones self(no matter what path you take to realise it)then these symbolic writings will never be understood. so to argue and say one religon is better because my book says this and yours says something similar but diff., is ridiculas. Because they all say the same things, the same truths, they are just written very differently...mind you that these are completely different cultures that are writing these things...its only common sense their will be differences. Much like a wedding ceremony performed in one culture may call it something it a wedding and have their way of doing it and another cultures wedding ceremony may be called something different and be performed in a totally different way. Different cultures are why we have so many different styles of things...wether it be religion, clothing, food, langauge.....i couldnt imagine a world with only one cultural viewpoint....it would be so boring and un colorful....im so sick of peopel fighting over religion...whos right and whos not when really were all right we just see things through a diifferent color of glass.
~ravenwolf

 

[Mephster]

well i only read the first post and i didnt really feel like reading the rest but i did want to make a comment in what was said above.

im so sick of peopel fighting over religion...whos right and whos not when really were all right we just see things through a diifferent color of glass.
~ravenwolf

There is a vast difference between "fighting," as you say, and arguing. The fact that humans strive toward both knowledge and understanding is actually quite noble. And since, in this case, they are striving for knowledge and understanding of, presumably, the highest being and supreme divinity, then their efforts are that much more important.

The subjective opinion which you state is superficially satisfying, but it does not truly delve into the why's and wherefore's that surround the human enterprise of religion. It is merely hand-waving to say that "we just see things differently." Why do we see things differently? because of our "culture?" What is meant, exactly, by the word "culture"?

 

[Kas]

OK on the first point, so therefore since the Quran is distinct from Allah there is a duality within the oneness of Allah! After all the Quran is not Allah, and Allah is not the Quran!

The only other explanation is that the Quran is not seperate from Allah, thus Allah is one, but is constantly proceeding from Allah and thus constantly distinct!

Which of these two versions is more accurate a discription of Islamic Taweed!

Secondly, could you comment upon the belief that the Quran exists eternally upon stone tablets in heaven: this being called the mother of the book!-clarification please.

Peace,
Kas(who is greatful for your paitence in this matter!)

Also, for further clarification: I believe that Jesus is also a word from Allah (the word Be) does this mean that He is eternal as well?

How does one make the distinction between the word of Allah that is the Quran, which while not being Allah is His word and thus eternal as Allah is eternal and say (as in Islamic deen) the Injeel and Torah; are these eternal as well?

Peace and love,
Kas(immitating tulc is the best form of flattery!)

 

[Arthra]

I think I've posted this before...but maybe it was overlooked... but the issue of "Umuu'l-Kitab" is that of heavenly original of the Scriptures revealed to the prophets and is inscribed on what is called the "Preserved Tablet".. as in Qur'an 13:39 and in 3:5 and 85:21...

So there is an "original Book" with God in heaven from which revelations of the Holy Books have come...and that would include Torah, Psalms, Gospels, Qur'an and as far as Baha'is are concerned the revealed Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Abdul-Baha said:

"Delight our ears with the melody of Thy Word, and shelter us all in the Stronghold of Thy Providence."

From the New Testament, in Luke 4:4, is: "It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."

Christ would be a channel of God's Word so the Word was from the beginning with God returns us I think to the original concept of the Mother Book or "Umuu'l-Kitab" as above.

The writings of the divine philosopher Philo also reflect the following..."But the most universal of all things is God; and in the second place the word of God” (“Allegorical Interpretation, II, 86, Works of Philo).*

- Art

 

[ravenwolf]

And since, in this case, they are striving for knowledge and understanding of, presumably, the highest being and supreme divinity, then their efforts are that much more important.

The subjective opinion which you state is superficially satisfying, but it does not truly delve into the why's and wherefore's that surround the human enterprise of religion. It is merely hand-waving to say that "we just see things differently." Why do we see things differently? because of our "culture?" What is meant, exactly, by the word "culture"?

I dont think anyone will get to any knowledge by looking at what puts peopel apart...i think people should try looking at what commonalities there are. Arguing is the same as fighting only arguing is a verbal term, trying to prove to one another which way is better. i dont delve into those things to try and explain spirituality because the why's and wherefore's are of the intellect and things of a spiritual nature cant be understood by looking at those surface things....so arguing about spirituality in purely looking at the intellect will prove nothing, what does prove is thatr people of all different religions EXPERIENCE spirituality. What else would i mean by the word culture????? culture...every country has one..all religions sprang from a particular CULTURE, or a specific gruop or race of peopel with their own language, beliefe system, heritage etc....there are no two cultures alike meaning the fact that these different religions come from different cultures that of course they will be different....but that doesnt mean ones better than the other there are just different aspect, names , explanations, rituals, etc. Same Spirit , same goal, different vision.

 

[Mephster]

I dont think anyone will get to any knowledge by looking at what puts peopel apart...i think people should try looking at what commonalities there are.

Quite true that often people look directly and exclusively at divisive elements. I agree, and perhaps this is the cause of much stereotyping, anger, and distrust.

Arguing is the same as fighting only arguing is a verbal term, trying to prove to one another which way is better.

Actually, its not the same.

i dont delve into those things to try and explain spirituality because the why's and wherefore's are of the intellect and things of a spiritual nature cant be understood by looking at those surface things....so arguing about spirituality in purely looking at the intellect will prove nothing, what does prove is thatr people of all different religions EXPERIENCE spirituality.

We have only our intellect to guide us, and I would prefer more people used their's to their full capacity, instead of shrugging and just refusing all attempts to reach understanding.

What else would i mean by the word culture????? culture...every country has one..all religions sprang from a particular CULTURE, or a specific gruop or race of peopel with their own language, beliefe system, heritage etc....

For example, how languages developed from Indo-European X language? Hence, why we strive to understand why they developed and began to differ as they did.

there are no two cultures alike meaning the fact that these different religions come from different cultures that of course they will be different....but that doesnt mean ones better than the other there are just different aspect, names , explanations, rituals, etc. Same Spirit , same goal, different vision.

You are correct, based on these facts alone - one cannot ascertain that one culture is necessarily "better" than another. And yes, there are commonalities in religion (e.g. rituals, myths, dogmas, doctrines, texts, etc.) However, it is far better to understand these differences than to hand-wave at the differences and pretend like they all agree. You are a hard-pluralist (something along the lines of John Hick, whom if you have not read, I would advise you to look into). Different does not equal bad, you are correct.

 

[ravenwolf]

well i guees what i was sayinf about the arguing being the same as fighting..i should have said LIKE....when you fight its a physical battle or conflict, when you argue its a mental battle or conflict..thats what i meant to say not that they are the same.

We have only our intellect to guide us, and I would prefer more people used their's to their full capacity, instead of shrugging and just refusing all attempts to reach understanding.

I dont believe our intellect is the only thing to guide us... i thtink thats where there are so many problems , people let there intellect lead them rather then their spirit..intellect is there for a purpose but it is not the only part of us.. i do agree that it shouldnt be shrugged off but i dont think it shpould be the sole basis either.

Quote:

What else would i mean by the word culture????? culture...every country has one..all religions sprang from a particular CULTURE, or a specific gruop or race of peopel with their own language, beliefe system, heritage etc....

For example, how languages developed from Indo-European X language? Hence, why we strive to understand why they developed and began to differ as they did.

religion developes in the same way...thats why many religions have sects that have branched off in many ways.....its much in the same way as the langauges as thay developed from centrtal points and then branch out...many langauges are dead and many are newer, some older, etc.
~ravenwolf

 

[PurelyIslam]

Hey rebazar..

Sorry im late i didnt get the chance to enter the Forum lately..anyways the question you posed is very good...

So, what is the point of living if everything is already predestined for you ? Where does your FREE WILL come into play ?
How can a person SIN if Allah controls and is responsible for everything ??

As a start I can say as Muslims we believe that although God created everything and which would include the good and the bad only good is attributed to Allah and evil is never attributed to Him. Why? God created this world based on laws of goodness and justice...And He created the means for that justice to be held and the means for that justice to be unheld..and then He gave man the ability to choose how he wants to live this life...So if man chooses to lead a life of corruption then he must expect the outcome of that life..not only in the Hereafter but also in this life Why?! cuz the laws of justice that Allah has predetermined are there, and Allah is never unaware of what we do...'And whatever strikes you of disaster - is is for what your hands have earned; but He pardons much.' Quran:42:30

Should we thank him for all the wars, killings, murders and rapes

Calamitities which may fall upon a person need not always be considered a punishment from God or something evil...'But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah knows, while you know not. {Quran 2:215},,Allah may hide for a person thousands of blessings and benefits behind and event that person suffered from the most. Allah is the Friend, the Guardian and the Helper of the faithful...Therefore we should thank Allah in all situations, good or bad...and we should try to be His true humble servants in hardship or ease...none but Him truly deserves our worship and praise..

i hope i answered ur questions ..


urs in Islam...Purely..

 

[rebazar]

Thanx for your reply PurelyIslam But I still don't understand why only good things would be attributed to Allah and not the bad things as well. Is Allah's NATURE both good and bad or is it that he just "created" good and bad?? What is Allah's nature ?? Thanx


Cheers

 

[Cognizant]

allah was a normal person. or how some say a prophet. he died ,and never resurrected. if you pray to him you pray to a wall.

 

[Zoot]

allah was a normal person. or how some say a prophet. he died ,and never resurrected. if you pray to him you pray to a wall.

Cognizant,

You are thinking of Muhammad. Allah is the Arabic word for God. Muhammad was the prophet. And no one prays to Muhammad.

 

[Mephster]

from Kas:.... [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]That is the doctrine of the eternal nature of the Quran! That is the Quran is eternal-always has been-always will be. [/font]So does that mean that the Quran shares in the eternal nature of Allah and has no eternal nature seperate from Allah? could you comment upon the belief that the Quran exists eternally upon stone tablets in heaven: this being called the mother of the book!-clarification please.

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]



[/font][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Historically, t[/font][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]here have certainly been many views. In the present time, people have for the most part ceased thinking about these types of questions (lack of scholarly ambition, I suppose). The significance mainly is that those who say the Qur'an is eternal believe that the Qur'an always was but was simply waiting for people to be ready for its revelation. They tend to read the Qu'ran from less of a contextual perspective but that is a generalization that isn't always true. There's a lot more to it than this but I don't remember, im sorry. Both sides however agree that the Qur'an is the word of God so don't be confused on that point.


[/font]

 

[PurelyIslam]

Thanx for your reply PurelyIslam But I still don't understand why only good things would be attributed to Allah and not the bad things as well. Is Allah's NATURE both good and bad or is it that he just "created" good and bad??

Allah is nature is ONLY Good...and He created everything that ever existed the good and the bad for a wisdom and purpose that only He can fully compensate...

What is Allah's nature ?? Thanx

Say [O Muhammad]: He is God the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone."..(112:1-4)..This is the verse revealed from Allah to the Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings of Allah be upon him when he was asked the same question...

Allah describes Himself to us in the Quran and says...."He is God; there is no god but He, He is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; He is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. He is God, there is no God but He. He is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! He is God the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (59:22-24)...

As Muslims we Believe Allah is Ever-lasting and Eternal..and so are His attributes they are Ever-Lasting and Eternal. He doesnt lose of any His attributes nor does He gain new ones, cuz that would nullify His eternal nature. He is not like anything He created..and there is none similair to Him..

urs in islam..Purely..

 

[rebazar]

Thanx, PurelyIslam, much appreciated !!




Cheers

 

[PurelyIslam]

Thanx, PurelyIslam, much appreciated !!




Cheers

u're most welcome...and it was my pleasure..

God Bless...Purely..

 

[ALL4J3SUS]

.

 

[PurelyIslam]

Just a question for the Muslims in this forum, in Islam is it considered sin/blasphemy to say "God D*** It" or "Oh my God"??

Hello All4J3SUS...

There is no harm in saying "Oh my God"...infact it is considered a good thing..Why? we are remembering Our Lord...and Who is better to remember?!.. the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him said, the one who remembers Allah compared to the one who does not can be parallel to the living compared to the dead.

As 4 "God D*** It" ...That would not be considered blasphemy but sin..cuz a Muslim in Islam must avoid all forms of foul talk and we are told Allah does not like the cursers..and it is from disobedience (against Allah) if we speak by what He hates whether we are serious or kidding .For this reason, the prophet peace be upon him warned us in an authentic hadith, "The believer does not accuse, curse others, disobey Allah, nor bad-mouth others." and in another authentic hadith,"The curse of a Muslim is disobedience."

urs in Islam ... Purely..

 

[Ndimensional]

Thanx for your reply PurelyIslam But I still don't understand why only good things would be attributed to Allah and not the bad things as well. Is Allah's NATURE both good and bad or is it that he just "created" good and bad?? What is Allah's nature ?? Thanx
Cheers

hello sorry for disturbing i 'll just say my thought about his subject
i think "being good or bad" is something relative. it can change w.r.t person and situation.
simple example: if you kill someone you become a criminal but if you kill in a war you become a hero.
we believe that all the good things and bad things are from God.
something bad for us cannot be something bad for God. since God , as the Creator of the order and good and bad, is "outside" of this system. it can be seen bad to us, but it can be due to His Mercy or Justice, or something else we can't know.
peace

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Allah is author of bad?