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Understanding God...

ALL4J3SUS

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The idea of understanding God, whether it be trinitarian monotheism or unitarian montheism is no different. Either way God is beyond our comprehension.

I am regularly surprised at the Islamic attempts to deride the true teaching of God when the best that they usually offer in return is, "Say He is Allah, there is none like Him...."

Ironically, it is the Islamic teaching of the incomprehensability of God that makes the tri-unity of God all the more reasonable...

In other words, if God is as big and otherly as Islam claims (which Christianity agrees with) then he is also not beyond the limitations that Islam then tries to place on Him. (ie. the incarnation is impossible, because it is beyond God's ability to do such a thing......or God cannot be everywhere at once---he's not in your toilet too is he???!!..and other such nonsense...)

Interestingly enough, it is the Islamic scholars that make comments about God that are actually far more unreasonable than anything that Christians have ever suggested.
Check out what Abu Hanifah had to say about God:
The most high has a hand and a face and soul
Q. 5:116) without asking (or knowing ) how (bela kayf)
Imam Abi Hanifah, Al-Fiqh al-Akbar, Dar al-Kutub al-'Elmeyah, Beirut, 1979, p. 33.

This is not an uncommon teaching in Islam.

Dr. Yousel Al-Qaradawi insisted that Allah has hands when commenting on the verse `Said He [Allah], `Iblis [the devil], what prevented thee to bow thyself before that which I created with My own hands?' (Q. 38:75) :
Since the hands in the above verse can not be interpreted as Allah's power, because all things were created by Allah's power, even Iblis himself being created by Allah's power, then nothing remains to distinguish the creation of Adam from the rest of Allah's creation. And in the Hadith `Allah created three things by His hand; He created Adam by his hand; He wrote the Torah by His hand; and He planted Paradise by His hand.' The distinguishing of those three by mentioning that they were created by Allah's hand, (although they share with the rest of creation that they all exist by the power of Allah), proves that there is something extra that distinguishes them (Adam, the Torah, and Paradise).

Besides, the expression, `pair of hands' is not known except when the hands are real, and was never used to indicate power or grace ... and how can the hand be interpreted as power when the palm of Allah, and the fingers of Allah, and Allah's left and right, the folding and the unfolding of Allah's hand [Q. 5:64], has been established. All of which can only be ascribed to a real hand.

Yousef Al-Qaradawi, 'Elewah Mostafa and 'Ali Gammar, Al-Twahid, Qatar, 1968, p. 118, 119.

Ahmad Ibn Taymiya the famous exponent of the school of Ibn Hanbal said:


"Allah will step down from His throne in the same manner as I am stepping down from this pulpit."

23 Years, Ali Dashti, George Allen & Unwin, London, 1985, p. 157

Notice the contrast; While Muslims continualy accuse Christians of absurdity by believing in the incarnation (God's Word became a man in Jesus), it is Islam (at least some the most Orthodox Ulema) that support what we as Christians would never support. Namely that God literally has a body?! Some of the greatest experts in Islamic law claim that God has a face and hands etc, and then we as Christians are ridiculed for teaching doctrines that are not reasonable. These Islamic scholars are claiming things about God that Christinas would never claim. So which doctrine is more unreasonable, that the One and only true God has a literal body, or that the One and only true God who cannot be seen nor ever will because he is so far beyond our ability to know or see etc, sent His Word to become a man to reveal Himself to His creation? Personally I think that the latter is far more reasonable and understandable.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to oversimplify the incarnation - the mystery of mysteries. It is surely a wild thought with many mind-blowing aspects to it, but personally after dwelling on this awesome truth, I am personally always inspired to worship the One true God with all of my being!
 

ALL4J3SUS

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The Spirit...
Allah is also said to have a spirit.

Quran 15:29 "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

But the Qu'ran admittedly says very little about Allahs spirit:

Quran 17:85 They ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you"

Al-Ghazali said:

Too close inquiry, however, into the essence of the Spirit is forbidden by Law. - Alchemy of Happiness.

But to Christians it is not forbidden, it is taught in our Holy Injeel. But rather God's Spirit lives inside of us and teaches us all things.

So Christians believe that God has a Spirit. Just as the Quran teaches. We believe that God's Spirit fills the universe yet is not limited by the universe. God's Spirit is not part of the universe. The universe is created, but His Spirit sustains all of creation.

So in a sense God's Spirit is one with the God, yet can be viewed separately in another sense. They are inseparable, yet can be viewed separately based on the description given them from Qu'ran.
 
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ALL4J3SUS

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A Mighty and Exalted King

Let's say that there was a mighty king that we all admired. Let's just say Sala'adin. Let's say that someone told us that the Mighty King Sala'adin played with little girl's dolls. Would this be befitting for Sala'adin? Would such an awesome king ever do such a thing? Or would it be below his diginity and majesty? Wouldn't it be horrible to suggest such a thing?

If we truly revered, honored and looked up to Sala'adin, we would say that to play with dolls is far below the dignity of such a king. Wouldn't we?

But.......... if we found out that Saladdin had a daughter that was well pleased when her father played dolls with her, then we would see that because of his love for his little daughter, to play with dolls is not below his diginity. Because the motivation of the King was love for his child, we see this "lowering" of the Mighty King as understandable, acceptable and even admirable.
Rather than belittling the mighty King in our eyes, we see a fuller picture of the mighty King. He is a Mighty King that has a tender heart for his daughter whom he loves. Instead of causing us to think less of this mighty king, we now think more highly of him. Even among the mighty, humility and tender love are both virtues.

Many Muslims cannot bear the fact that God chose to became a man. They assume that to become a man and to undergo the suffering and humiliation of the cross is far below the dignity of the Awesome King and Creator of the Universe. But because the mission of the King was to save the children he loves and bring them back to himself, we see that the motivation of God was the purest of Loves for us. And thus in the incarnation of Jesus (the Word of God becoming a human) we see a God who is both Mighty in his Majestic Greatness and Mighty in his Passionate Love as well This is the God who is worthy of our worship and worthy of our love! Amen!


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The options are clear. Choose this day, what will you choose? Life or death, truth or error... Would you like to know the One true God? Would you like God's spirit to live inside you? Would you like to know the peace that surpasses all understanding?
 
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JCBeliever

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ALL4J3SUS said:
The Spirit...
Allah is also said to have a spirit.

Quran 15:29 "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

But the Qu'ran admittedly says very little about Allahs spirit:

Quran 17:85 They ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you"

Al-Ghazali said:

Too close inquiry, however, into the essence of the Spirit is forbidden by Law. - Alchemy of Happiness.

But to Christians it is not forbidden, it is taught in our Holy Injeel. But rather God's Spirit lives inside of us and teaches us all things.

So Christians believe that God has a Spirit. Just as the Quran teaches. We believe that God's Spirit fills the universe yet is not limited by the universe. God's Spirit is not part of the universe. The universe is created, but His Spirit sustains all of creation.

So in a sense God's Spirit is one with the God, yet can be viewed separately in another sense. They are inseparable, yet can be viewed separately based on the description given them from Qu'ran.
I have two points to make:
1.) So many Muslims believe the Spirit is Jibreel, which belief is correct?

2.) If what you say is true about the Spirit in Islam, well that's not much different than in Christianity. Why would the Trinity be considered "shirk" if you have a similar belief as us?
Since God has a Spirit, that doesn't mean that God is disunited, right? God is united and in power! There is no god but God and He is One, isn't that what matters?
 
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crystalpc

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JCBeliever said:
I have two points to make:
1.) So many Muslims believe the Spirit is Jibreel, which belief is correct?

2.) If what you say is true about the Spirit in Islam, well that's not much different than in Christianity. Why would the Trinity be considered "shirk" if you have a similar belief as us?
Since God has a Spirit, that doesn't mean that God is disunited, right? God is united and in power! There is no god but God and He is One, isn't that what matters?
Jibreel as meaning Gabriel the Angel???? he was a messenger not the comforter that Jesus spoke about.
 
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Lavis Knight

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Tell me what is the point of this post? If you say God is beyond our comprehension then any religions attempts would be therefore futile, why then do you only focus on Islam?

Ya know it would also affect Christianity too, but i don't think that this post is about the fact that God is incomprehensible, i think it is just another (and i have been here briefly and there has been countless already) thread that is bashing Islam.

I'm not so sure if i were Christian if i would want the Christian legacy to be that of debunking other worldviews. I believe that Christianity stands for higher ideals than that.

However i am not most concerned about that, what concerns me the most is this consuming preoccupation and ambivalence that some Christians on this board seem to have with Islam.
 
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peaceful soul

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Lavis Knight said:
Tell me what is the point of this post? If you say God is beyond our comprehension then any religions attempts would be therefore futile, why then do you only focus on Islam?

Ya know it would also affect Christianity too, but i don't think that this post is about the fact that God is incomprehensible, i think it is just another (and i have been here briefly and there has been countless already) thread that is bashing Islam.

I'm not so sure if i were Christian if i would want the Christian legacy to be that of debunking other worldviews. I believe that Christianity stands for higher ideals than that.

However i am not most concerned about that, what concerns me the most is this consuming preoccupation and ambivalence that some Christians on this board seem to have with Islam.

What you are saying has a lot of merit to it. Some of these issues are very important to discuss and to understand, though. Islam holds a very significant postion with respect to Christianity. It is a complex structure (social, political, religious) that attempts to undermine the salvation we have in Christ. It is an anthesis to Christianity. I can not think of any other religion that has a rivalry as such. In every significant way, Islam attempts to undo what Christ has done for us.

Some of us are just trying to expose the flaws that Muslims find in our doctrine while others are doing as you say: that is going out on a mission to trash it. I must say that the objective also applies to Muslims. Muslims are just as gulity for the actions you are pointing out.
 
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Zoot

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The problem is people wanting to have their cake and eat it too. Either God's infinite and unknowable and you don't know anything about it, or you know things about God and God is thus not unknowable.

What we have instead is people saying, "God's totally beyond comprehension. You can't say anything about Him. Yes, that's right. Him. Male. And let me tell you some more about Him and His plan for you..."
 
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Mephster

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Zoot said:
The problem is people wanting to have their cake and eat it too. Either God's infinite and unknowable and you don't know anything about it, or you know things about God and God is thus not unknowable.

What we have instead is people saying, "God's totally beyond comprehension. You can't say anything about Him. Yes, that's right. Him. Male. And let me tell you some more about Him and His plan for you..."
Actually, no.

Cp. Aquinas' pseudo-theory on Analogy.
 
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Lavis Knight

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peaceful soul said:
What you are saying has a lot of merit to it. Some of these issues are very important to discuss and to understand, though. Islam holds a very significant postion with respect to Christianity. It is a complex structure (social, political, religious) that attempts to undermine the salvation we have in Christ. It is an anthesis to Christianity. I can not think of any other religion that has a rivalry as such. In every significant way, Islam attempts to undo what Christ has done for us.

Some of us are just trying to expose the flaws that Muslims find in our doctrine while others are doing as you say: that is going out on a mission to trash it. I must say that the objective also applies to Muslims. Muslims are just as gulity for the actions you are pointing out.
It is not Christianity's legacy to justify it's doings based on the actions of others, but to rather set an example for those others to follow.

Trashing the worldview of those you wish to reach is not the answer... no matter how much you may dislike it.
 
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crystalpc

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Lavis Knight said:
It is not Christianity's legacy to justify it's doings based on the actions of others, but to rather set an example for those others to follow.

Trashing the worldview of those you wish to reach is not the answer... no matter how much you may dislike it.
Lavis as a youngster I had to have my world view trashed before I could see clearly. But we are not trying to trash world views, we are asking people to reexamine themselves.
Some on these forums have said they have "lost faith" because of these forums. I on the other hand have had to do some deep studying in order to answer some of the people on these forums, that has not caused me to lose faith but to deepen my faith, not because of what I heard someone say, but by formulating my own opinion, and reasoning. Do you think this may happen to those of other faiths? It is possible, but at least they were exposed to the questions.
 
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peaceful soul

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Zoot said:
The problem is people wanting to have their cake and eat it too. Either God's infinite and unknowable and you don't know anything about it, or you know things about God and God is thus not unknowable.

What we have instead is people saying, "God's totally beyond comprehension. You can't say anything about Him. Yes, that's right. Him. Male. And let me tell you some more about Him and His plan for you..."

God is not totally either. We have to accept God in the way that He has revealed Himself to us. That should be as far as we take it. If you want to imagine other things, that is OK just as long as you do not make it into a gospel.
 
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peaceful soul

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Lavis Knight said:
It is not Christianity's legacy to justify it's doings based on the actions of others, but to rather set an example for those others to follow.

Trashing the worldview of those you wish to reach is not the answer... no matter how much you may dislike it.

Your are correct.

Christianity stands upon its own merits. The term trashing can be misleading. Some take offense to things that are genuine discussions. It becomes trashing because it hits a nerve in them or they misunderstand the intentions set forth.

I was only trying to bring about understanding of what was being discussed. I am not here to defend anyone for anything that brings about malice, understand.
 
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peaceful soul

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Zoot said:
Well, come on, then.

What can you tell me about God? What can be said about God?

Your best bet is to read scriptures about God and His attributes. I see it as futile trying t to explain anything at this point. The best that I can do for you at this time is perhaps point you to some scriptures that will give you some understanding. Perhaps I could point to to some websites that may be able to summarize some essences of God. IMO, the best thing to do is read scripture.
 
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Zoot

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Your best bet is to read scriptures about God and His attributes. I see it as futile trying t to explain anything at this point. The best that I can do for you at this time is perhaps point you to some scriptures that will give you some understanding. Perhaps I could point to to some websites that may be able to summarize some essences of God. IMO, the best thing to do is read scripture.

Assume I've read plenty of scriptures from a number of different religions.
 
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Alexei

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If you just knew the basics of Arabic language and vocabulary, you won't post such a thread:
In Arabic language lot of metaphoric expressions are used for rhetorical issues.
In the Noble Qur'an we can read this:
But those who were blind in this world, will be blind in the hereafter, and most astray from the Path. [The Noble Qur'an 17:72]
So does this mean that all blind people who have problems in their eyes will not go to heaven?????????
In Arabic, when someone want to marry a girl, he asked for her hand, so does this mean that the guy want to marry the girl' hand?
When someone want to thank someone, he thanks his eyes, so does mean that his eyes did the favor for the other?

But will abide (for ever) the Face of thy Lord,- full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour.[The Noble Qur'an 55:27]
So all will abide, God hands, feet, abdomen, kness, legs, fingers, neck... But what remain is the face????????????
Similar aspects of Allah, such as His "hand" or His "face," are meant allegorically. The Hand of God refers to His power and might, and His Face refers to his Holy Essence.

You have to learn the Arabic language, vocabulary, grammar, idioms, science of speech and words.... before you can go and attack the Noble Qur'an.


In other words, if God is as big and otherly as Islam claims (which Christianity agrees with) then he is also not beyond the limitations that Islam then tries to place on Him. (ie. the incarnation is impossible, because it is beyond God's ability to do such a thing......or God cannot be everywhere at once---he's not in your toilet too is he???!!..and other such nonsense...)
God can do everything, He is The Al Mighty.
But the deficit and the problem is in us.
In the Noble Qur'an we read:
When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." [The Noble Qur'an 7:143]

Moses wanted to see God, but this was impossible because the problem is in us the humans in our bodies and not with God Al Mighty.



And about the rubbish you quoted from those the naive Sunna scholars:
Here's a refutation and don't be deceived by the others about the false propaganda they have spread about Islam:
http://www.al-islam.org/shiism/11.htm
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8635&hl=seeing+allah
 
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peaceful soul

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Zoot said:
Your best bet is to read scriptures about God and His attributes. I see it as futile trying t to explain anything at this point. The best that I can do for you at this time is perhaps point you to some scriptures that will give you some understanding. Perhaps I could point to to some websites that may be able to summarize some essences of God. IMO, the best thing to do is read scripture.

Assume I've read plenty of scriptures from a number of different religions.

Zoot, that is what is required to get to the bottom of issues: a lot of research. I know that we like to be lazy at times; but if you really want to understand, you will have to do the work. I will try to organize something to perhaps help to consolidate some things. It is always better to read it for yourself. Then you can get a better feeling of what is being told.

Perhaps others cancontribute too.

peace..........................ful!!
 
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