Understanding double predestination

[RileyG]

Can someone explain it to me in plain language? do most of the reformed and presbyterian churches accept it?

thanks

 

[Hammster]

In simple terms, if God predestines some to salvation, then by default those who are not predestined are destined to hell. It’s not an equal ultimacy, though. God doesn’t actively not save someone in the same way He saves someone else.

 

[disciple Clint]

In simple terms, if God predestines some to salvation, then by default those who are not predestined are destined to hell. It’s not an equal ultimacy, though. God doesn’t actively not save someone in the same way He saves someone else.

My understanding is that double predestination means that God specifically selected some people to be saved and some to go to hell regardless of anything they might do, they were saved or damned from before day one. I do not agree with it but I believe that I provided an accurate explanation.

 

[Hammster]

My understanding is that double predestination means that God specifically selected some people to be saved and some to go to hell regardless of anything they might do, they were saved or damned from before day one. I do not agree with it but I believe that I provided an accurate explanation.

Mine’s more accurate. God doesn’t need to select anyone to go to hell.

 

[disciple Clint]

Mine’s more accurate. God doesn’t need to select anyone to go to hell.

how do you get double predestination if God is not selecting both the saved and the unsaved?

 

[Hammster]

how do you get double predestination if God is not selecting both the saved and the unsaved?

Man isn’t born neutral. Man’s default is hell. There’s no predestination necessary for that.

 

[com7fy8]

Romans 8:29 says >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, from this I see how predestination is not mainly about who goes where, but how we become if we are predestined to spend eternity with Jesus as His "brethren".

So, if we are predestined to be with Jesus, what matters is not only what label and beliefs we have, but how we are becoming in our character. But it seems to me that a number of people only talk about who makes the choice, who is in control. They do not talk about how we now are becoming and need to become because we are predestined.

To me, it seems how certain ones can make a major thing out of their free wills making their choice . . . of Heaven or hell . . . yet, they are not choosing to be and to love like Jesus. Meanwhile, others can say they are the "elect", but they are not being and loving like Jesus.

In any case, I am satisfied that God is in control of what becomes of each person. And each person does not control . . . much, to say the least. And in case anyone does claim to have choice . . . what really do they choose? Where are they choosing to give their attention, if they have so much control??

We need to submit to God, so He is guiding our attention, in His peace ruling us. Or else, we are not choosing what is His will >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

I would say I have known people who are free will people and others who are predestination people, and both are not doing this . . . right while they can argue themselves right about which belief is correct.

 

[Petros2015]

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[TedT]

My understanding is that double predestination means that God specifically selected some people to be saved and some to go to hell regardless of anything they might do, they were saved or damned from before day one. I do not agree with it but I believe that I provided an accurate explanation.

The phrase "regardless of anything they might do" refers to the concept of UNconditional election and UNconditional non-election...and is anathema in light of HIS loving righteousness and justice.

An acceptable definition of election and reprobation includes MERIT based election and DISMERIT based reprobation. In such a case double predestination is quite acceptable in that it is based upon the free will desires and choices of both the elect and non-elect folk.

Election (being chosen to salvation and the heavenly marriage) and reprobation (being passed over as eternally outside of HIS grace and mercy for salvation and the heavenly marriage due to sinning the unforgivable sin) are both HIS response to our faith based choices made by our free will, not by HIS will.

 

[TedT]

Mine’s more accurate. God doesn’t need to select anyone to go to hell.

If you are referring to the doctrine of our reprobation from conception then HE in fact CHOSE ALL to go to hell BY THEIR CONCEPTION and them saves some from hell - a doctrine solidly contrary to HIS revealed nature as loving, just and unable to create evil by any means whatsoever.

 

[TedT]

how do you get double predestination if God is not selecting both the saved and the unsaved?

ImCo,
Predestination is NOT ELECTION and is predictive of the end state of election or non-election, not the cause of election or non-election.

We chose our eternal FATES by our free will then GOD predestined our LIVES to conform to that choice.

 

[Skye1300]

Romans 8:29 says >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

The keyword is foreknew. There's another verse that says some will say Lord, Lord, and God will say I never knew you. So that verse is saying the ones who God already knew would give themselves to Him, they are the ones He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. The ones that never gave their heart to God, He never knew them, therefore did not need to predestine them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

It's mankind's choice to choose God or not, then God just works with those who chose Him to make them conform to His image. God lives outside time, so He already knows the ones who will choose Him, those are the ones He predestines to conform to his image.

 

[Hammster]

If you are referring to the doctrine of our reprobation from conception then HE in fact CHOSE ALL to go to hell BY THEIR CONCEPTION and them saves some from hell - a doctrine solidly contrary to HIS revealed nature as loving, just and unable to create evil by any means whatsoever.

He doesn’t force anyone to sin.

 

[Skye1300]

If you are referring to the doctrine of our reprobation from conception then HE in fact CHOSE ALL to go to hell BY THEIR CONCEPTION and them saves some from hell - a doctrine solidly contrary to HIS revealed nature as loving, just and unable to create evil by any means whatsoever.

God didn't choose all to go to hell, the fall of Adam in the garden put humanity into an automatic sinful fallen state destined to hell. So still it was man's choice or action that caused this.

 

[disciple Clint]

Man isn’t born neutral. Man’s default is hell. There’s no predestination necessary for that.

Lets see what the experts have to say:
Double Predestination
This is the view that God sovereignly and freely chose to predestine some to Heaven (the elect) and some to Hell (the reprobate). This predestination is not based on anything in the person, nor is it based on what the foreseen actions and/or beliefs of that person would have been.
Double Predestination

 

[disciple Clint]

The phrase "regardless of anything they might do" refers to the concept of UNconditional election and UNconditional non-election...and is anathema in light of HIS loving righteousness and justice.

An acceptable definition of election and reprobation includes MERIT based election and DISMERIT based reprobation. In such a case double predestination is quite acceptable in that it is based upon the free will desires and choices of both the elect and non-elect folk.

Election (being chosen to salvation and the heavenly marriage) and reprobation (being passed over as eternally outside of HIS grace and mercy for salvation and the heavenly marriage due to sinning the unforgivable sin) are both HIS response to our faith based choices made by our free will, not by HIS will.

See post #15

 

[disciple Clint]

ImCo,
Predestination is NOT ELECTION and is predictive of the end state of election or non-election, not the cause of election or non-election.

We chose our eternal FATES by our free will then GOD predestined our LIVES to conform to that choice.

See post #15

 

[Hammster]

Lets see what the experts have to say:
Double Predestination
This is the view that God sovereignly and freely chose to predestine some to Heaven (the elect) and some to Hell (the reprobate). This predestination is not based on anything in the person, nor is it based on what the foreseen actions and/or beliefs of that person would have been.
Double Predestination

I disagree with that expert. It’s a very simplistic understanding.

 

[disciple Clint]

I disagree with that expert. It’s a very simplistic understanding.

I think that you are going to find a bunch of experts that agree with that expert, can they all be wrong? maybe?

 

[Hammster]

I think that you are going to find a bunch of experts that agree with that expert, can they all be wrong? maybe?

This isn’t the debate section.