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Understanding Calvinism

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rturner76

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First>I'm not Arminian, I'm American.

Second>Jesus Christ's sacrifice was for all of humanity. Grace is already given to all It's there for anyone that wishes to claim it and follow Jesus. That is the heart of the gospel.
 
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rturner76

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This is my favorite passage and it brought me to Christ. This is where it explains, grace is a free gift, already given. Halleluja!!!
 
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cygnusx1

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First>I'm not Arminian, I'm American.

Second>Jesus Christ's sacrifice was for all of humanity. Grace is already given to all It's there for anyone that wishes to claim it and follow Jesus. That is the heart of the gospel.


Arminian is not an Armenian , do you subscribe to you Methodist creed ? Is that not what you are by definition , your brief comments align with Arminianism. But I can understand why you would wish to distance yourself from that name.
 
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rturner76

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I am a Christian. I go to a Methodist Church. John Wesley has made many statements that make a lot of sense to me. I'm not a member of any "camp" or "group" other than Christian. I have similar beliefs to many of the people you say but I just don't like the labels. I don't believe something just because Jacobus Arminius said it.
 
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Skala

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First>I'm not Arminian, I'm American.

Second>Jesus Christ's sacrifice was for all of humanity. Grace is already given to all It's there for anyone that wishes to claim it and follow Jesus. That is the heart of the gospel.

Was grace given to all humanity?

Why is not everyone saved then?

You may answer because not everyone believes.

But unbelief is a sin too. Did Jesus die for all the sins of all people? if so, hell will be empty.
 
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rturner76

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I think that God may not be as eager to send people to hell as you seem to want him to be.I think the point is not who is going to hell but how do you live your life. Do you take up your cross or no? I think that is the question. Heaven and Hell will be a mystery until we see it. Do you live for god and neighbor? Do you not? I don't think it's really that complicated
 
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ConsumedByHisCall

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Was grace given to all humanity?

Why is not everyone saved then?

You may answer because not everyone believes.

But unbelief is a sin too. Did Jesus die for all the sins of all people? if so, hell will be empty.

Suppose you have to pay a huge fine you CANT pay so you are about to have to go to jail instead, but the judge's son pays the fine for you, so that NOTHING is owed, its paid in full. The judge looks to you and says, "Your debt has been paid, if you will simply apologize for your crime and thank my son for his provision, you can go." Either you graciously accept the offer and confess, or in rebellion you curse the judge and go to prison.

NOW... Why did you go to prison? Was it because of your debt? NO. The debt was paid in full. It was ONLY because of your refusal to met the provision put in by the judge...to repent.

Heb. 3:19 "They could not enter because of their unbelief."
 
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heymikey80

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A short summary of the depths of falsehood anti-Calvinists have resorted to directly on this thread -- actually a comment about their forebears' same tactics 500 years ago:

those of whom one could hardly expect it have shown no truth, equity, and charity at all in wishing to make the public believe:

--that the teaching of the Reformed churches on predestination and on the points associated with it by its very nature and tendency draws the minds of people away from all godliness and religion, is an opiate of the flesh and the devil, and is a stronghold of Satan where he lies in wait for all people, wounds most of them, and fatally pierces many of them with the arrows of both despair and self-assurance;

--that this teaching makes God the author of sin, unjust, a tyrant, and a hypocrite; and is nothing but a refurbished Stoicism, Manicheism, Libertinism, and Mohammedanism;

--that this teaching makes people carnally self-assured, since it persuades them that nothing endangers the salvation of the chosen, no matter how they live, so that they may commit the most outrageous crimes with self-assurance; and that on the other hand nothing is of use to the reprobate for salvation even if they have truly performed all the works of the saints;

--that this teaching means that God predestined and created, by the bare and unqualified choice of his will, without the least regard or consideration of any sin, the greatest part of the world to eternal condemnation; that in the same manner in which election is the source and cause of faith and good works, reprobation is the cause of unbelief and ungodliness; that many infant children of believers are snatched in their innocence from their mothers' breasts and cruelly cast into hell so that neither the blood of Christ nor their baptism nor the prayers of the church at their baptism can be of any use to them; and very many other slanderous accusations of this kind which the Reformed churches not only disavow but even denounce with their whole heart.

Therefore this Synod of Dordt in the name of the Lord pleads with all who devoutly call on the name of our Savior Jesus Christ to form their judgment about the faith of the Reformed churches, not on the basis of false accusations gathered from here or there, or even on the basis of the personal statements of a number of ancient and modern authorities--statements which are also often either quoted out of context or misquoted and twisted to convey a different meaning--but on the basis of the churches' own official confessions and of the present explanation of the orthodox teaching which has been endorsed by the unanimous consent of the members of the whole Synod, one and all.

Moreover, the Synod earnestly warns the false accusers themselves to consider how heavy a judgment of God awaits those who give false testimony against so many churches and their confessions, trouble the consciences of the weak, and seek to prejudice the minds of many against the fellowship of true believers.
Synod of Dordt, Conclusion

Things have not changed. Anti-Calvinists refuse to properly characterize Calvinistic teaching, and continue to distort, marginalize, and essentially spread false assertions about the theology. Anyone who really wanted to know about a Calvinistic teaching could actually ask. Instead these people simply state items rejected by Calvinism for 500 years.

Meanwhile their own views equivocate and oscillate from view to view, defenseless. The Remonstrant church that emerged from the initial disagreement with Calvinists in the Netherlands is now just a society of acceptance over all viewpoints. All, that is, except the narrow views of Calvinists.

Mmm. I'd rather be outside the camp with Jesus & His Apostles than in open acceptance with the whole world.
 
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rturner76

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Mmm. I'd rather be outside the camp with Jesus & His Apostles than in open acceptance with the whole world.

Inside or outside the camp, Jesus is with all of us my friend
 
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heymikey80

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Hm, Jesus is with every single person in the whole world, in the same way?

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven" Mt 7:20

12So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood. 13Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. Heb 13:12-13
 
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Shulamite

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Very well said. The "whole world" does not mean everyone in the world.
In the book of Revelation, it states, "The whole world marvels after the Beast.." (talking of the man of sin)... well, obviously, the born again elect of God will not be a part of that "whole world scenario" that marvels after the beast. The elect will not be deceived... therefore, the "whole world" does not mean every individual on the planet.

"Father I pray NOT for the World, but for those whom You have given Me."
Again, Jesus is not praying for those who are not His.

"Having loved His OWN who were in the world." Notice, His own are in the world, but this does not include the entire world.
 
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Skala

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This woman knows what she's talking about

She doesn't ignorantly impose a meaning onto the phrase in English that wouldn't have flown in the Greek.

 
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Tzaousios

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A man cannot serve two masters. For he will love one and hate the other.

Give up Calvin and turn to Christ.

Give up Dordt and turn to the Bible.

I don't understand the point of the exercise you have put people through in Soteriology. It would have saved an enormous amount of time and bandwidth if you had been forthcoming at first. Giving the impression that you were having "a change of heart" or coming to some kind of new, progressive revelation concerning Calvinism only tipped people off to the reality behind it.
 
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Pinkman

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Kind Regards

PM

Thank you for being a polite and gracious poster on this forum. Regarding your texts.


John 17:9
Christ died for all man (not just for the elect), but no one except the believer has remission of sin (John 3:16, Acts 17:30, 1 Tim 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, Rev. 22:17)



John 6:43-45 (see also John 7:17; John 12:39-40)
Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.



Calvinist suppose that those given and drawn are the Calvinistically elect. However, in context, those given and drawn by the Father to His Son are the believing remnant who are in covenant relationship with Him, having “heard and learned” from Him. (John 6:45) “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.” (John 8:47) Otherwise, God would have gladly given and drawn them to His Son.

Rather, God gave this grace to those who were of Him. This passage has nothing to do with Calvinism. It’s a dialogue between Jesus and the unbelieving Jews. The Jews insisted that they were right with God, and Jesus declared the opposite: “I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.”[bless and do not curse] (John 5:42) “He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know.” (John 7:28) “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” (John 8:19) “You are from below.” “You are of this world.” (John 8:23) “You will die in your sins.” (John 8:24) “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.” (John 8:39) “You are of your father the devil.” (John 8:44) “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.” (John 8:47) “You have not come to know Him.” (John 8:55) Jesus diagnosed their problem: They rejected Him because they rejected the Father. “I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me.” (John 5:43) That’s the “reason” why they rejected the Son. If they had received the Father, they would have received His Son, and would not have rejected He and all of the prophets before Him: “It cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.” (Luke 13:33) That’s why Jesus repeatedly invoked the Father in His dialogue with them. At John 5:19, He pointed out that His message was exclusively the Father’s, and that if indeed they had heard and learned from the Father, then they would have come to Him. (John 6:45) At John 7:17, Jesus pointed out that if indeed they did really wish to do the Father’s will, then they would know whether His message was from God. At John 8:42, Jesus pointed out that if indeed God was their Father, as they had proclaimed (John 8:41), then they would have loved the Son, whom they instead tried to kill. (John 8:59) At John 10:26, Jesus pointed out that the only reason why they rejected Him, was because they were not of His sheep, and He and the Father were One. (John 10:30) They were not of His sheep, because they were not of the Father’s sheep, either. If they were of the Father’s sheep, then the Father would have gladly given (John 6:37) and drawn them to His Son. (John 6:44) This passage has nothing to do with Calvinism.
 
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Pinkman

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Welcome back.

No - What has got up my nose is the continual changing of direction. First off is the posts that Hyper Calvinism is all wrong. Then later long winded philosophy which when examined is hyper Calvinism.


Why not just state plainly in the beginning.
 
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ConsumedByHisCall

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Who should we ask exactly? If we ask John MacArthur he would say that God loves all of humanity and genuinely desires all to be saved and rebukes others like Pink who suggest otherwise.

As I've quoted before, Calvinists are seriously divided among themselves and always have been. There is Supralapsarianism vs. Sublapsarianism vs. Infralapsarianism. 'The Supralapsarians hold that God decreed the fall of Adam; the Sublapsarians, that he permitted it' (McClintock & Strong). The Calvinists at the Synod of Dort were divided on many issues, including lapsarianism. The Swiss Calvinists who wrote the Helvetic Consensus Formula in 1675 were in conflict with the French Calvinists of the School of Saumur. There are Strict Calvinists and Moderate Calvinists, Hyper and non-Hyper (differing especially on reprobation and the extent of the atonement and whether God loves all men), 5 pointers, 4 pointers, 3 pointers, 2 pointers. In America Calvinists were divided into Old School and the New School. As we have seen, the Calvinists of England were divided in the 19th century.

Whenever, therefore, one tries to state TULIP theology and then refute it, there are Calvinists who will argue with you that you are misrepresenting Calvinism. It is not so much that you are misrepresenting Calvinism, though. You might be quoting directly from various Calvinists or even from Calvin himself. The problem is that you are misrepresenting THEIR Calvinism! There are Calvin Calvinists and Thomas Fuller Calvinists and Arthur W. Pink Calvinists and Presbyterian Calvinists and Baptist Calvinists and many other sorts of Calvinists. Many Calvinists have never read Calvin’s Institutes of Christian Religion for themselves. They are merely following someone who follows someone who allegedly follows Calvin (who, by his own admission, followed Augustine).

Calvinists believe that they have the right to reject or modify some parts of or conclusions of Calvin. I agree with them 100%, and I say, further, that we also have the right to reject the entire thing if we are convinced that it is not supported by Scripture!
 
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Pinkman

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Originally Posted by heymikey80
Things have not changed. Anti-Calvinists refuse to properly characterize Calvinistic teaching, and continue to distort, marginalize, and essentially spread false assertions about the theology. Anyone who really wanted to know about a Calvinistic teaching could actually ask.


Which is exactly what I did !!
 
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Pinkman

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Jesus said;
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him.

Without the Father first drawing a person, it is impossible for a person to make the first move in the direction of salvation. God makes the first move, not man.

Why do those of you who believe as you do, not bother to read the very next verse after John 6:44? It is certainly true as v.44 states, that unless drawn by the Father, no one can come to Jesus. But contrary to Calvinism, the drawing is not selective and irresistible; rather it is universal and resistible. All are drawn to Jesus by the power of the gospel (Rom 1:16). And Romans 10:17 tells us that faith comes from hearing the gospel preached. See also 2 Thess 2:14) We hear from Calvinism about piercing the heart and that is called regeneration. It isn't. But Hebrews 2:14 tells us what is the manner of the piercing. It says,

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

This is all quite in keeping with the very next verse after John 6:44 if you would read it. It says,

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

On the universal nature of the call, Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (John 12:32) And by this He referred to the cross (v,33)

It is unfortunate that not all who are drawn will come. This was the lament of Jesus of His own people, Israel.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. (Mat 23:37)
 
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