Understanding Calvinism

heymikey80 · Oct 2, 2011

rturner76 said:
ALL

SHALL COME

Universal givenness: meet John 6:37. Care to comment on why this would make your view something other than universalism?

heymikey80 · Oct 2, 2011

ConsumedByHisCall said:
Have any of the Calvinists here actually dealt with the claims of a true scholarly view of John 6 from an Arminian perspective? I'm not asking you to agree, but at least engage it and demonstrate an understanding before dismissing it out of hand.

Do you deny that God's means for calling men to salvation is the gospel?
Do you deny that the Gospel is a gracious powerful work of the Spirit in and of itself?
Do you deny that at the time John 6 happened that the Gospel had yet to be sent to "every creature?"
Do you deny that at this time the Jews were being hardened in their rebellion so they could not see, hear, understand and repent, lest they be healed?

How is this not relevant to the author's intent, especially in light that he is speaking to a hardened Jewish audience and the few He hand selected out of Israel to be his apostles?

Do you deny that means are causes?
Do you deny that everyone within earshot of the Gospel is powerfully changed by the Spirit?
Do you deny that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever? That Jesus ever lives to intercede for us?
Do you deny that everyone given to Christ is saved?

ConsumedByHisCall · Oct 3, 2011

heymikey80 said:
Do you deny that means are causes?

No. The means of the gospel is to make an appeal for enemies to be reconciled to God and it accomplishes that purpose. IOW, it causes the appeal to be made.

Do you deny that everyone within earshot of the Gospel is powerfully changed by the Spirit?

Yes and No.

Yes, I deny that everyone who hears the gospel is effectually saved.

No, I don't deny that a change occurs. They now know they are loved and that God wants them. They have been appealed to by God almighty to be reconciled to Him. That may have a profound effect on them, but they still may choose to harden their heart to God's gracious appeal (Heb. 3).

Do you deny that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever?

No, but I recognize that the purpose he was accomplishing while on earth was different from, let's say, Peter who preached in Acts 2 when thousands came to faith. Jesus was keeping the truth hidden in parables, telling followers to keep things quite until the right time, speaking difficult things that provoked his audience (i.e. eat my flesh), and blinding the wise and educated lest they repent and be healed (Mk 4; Matt 13), it was only after he was lifted up that he draws all men to himself by sending the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin and the Gospel to appeal for reconciliation. Until that time no one but a select few could come to Christ....the rest were being temporarily hardened. Calvinists fail to see this historical context, IMO, and thus make the interpretive errors regarding why some can't come to Christ and the overall intent of the biblical authors.

Do you deny that everyone given to Christ is saved?

Nope, not in the way he meant it in that context where some of Israel were given to be his disciples and some were given up to their rebellion so as to accomplish the Passover (like Pharaoh, they were being hardened for a redemptive purpose).

ConsumedByHisCall · Oct 3, 2011

Now, I answered your questions, but you didn't answer mine.

Pinkman · Oct 3, 2011

heymikey80 said:
Still awaiting your answer to numerous questions, among which:

when has God's viewpoint been majority opinion?

Not what I said was it.

In our time 90% of Christians dot not hold to Calvinism. Just like in the 5th century 90% or more did not hold to Augustine view of predestination.

Pinkman · Oct 3, 2011

Originally Posted by nobdysfool
Stirring the pot, are we? What "tiny bunch" would you be referring to? And where was this supposed quote of "win it back" posted? You make the accusations, now back them up. Otherwise, let it go.

Pro_15:18 A wrathful man stirreth up strife: but he that is slow to anger appeaseth strife.

Pro_16:28 A froward man soweth strife: and a whisperer separateth chief friends.

Pro_17:1 Better is a dry morsel, and quietness therewith, than an house full of sacrifices with strife.

Pro_17:14 The beginning of strife is as when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with.

Pro_17:19 He loveth transgression that loveth strife: and he that exalteth his gate seeketh destruction.

Pro_20:3 It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.

Pro_22:10 Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.

Pro_26:17 He that passeth by, and meddleth with strife belonging not to him, is like one that taketh a dog by the ears.

Pro_26:20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.

Pro_26:21 As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife.

Pro_28:25 He that is of a proud heart stirreth up strife: but he that putteth his trust in the LORD shall be made fat.

Pro_29:22 An angry man stirreth up strife, and a furious man aboundeth in transgression.

Pro_30:33 Surely the churning of milk bringeth forth butter, and the wringing of the nose bringeth forth blood: so the forcing of wrath bringeth forth strife.

Not accusations

QUOTE=nobdysfool;44337270]The Soteriology forum has become overrun with anti-Calvinists, and seemingly with the Moderators' blessing. I have been asked by an anonymous source to consider calling for a boycott of that particular forum by Calvinists. I have posted almost exclusively there for several years, and lately, it has become a cesspool of semi-pelagian hogwashh and anti-Calvinist bigotry. t.........

Should we Calvinists abandon the Soteriology Forum for a time, and let the quality of debate fall to the point where even the anti-Calvinists get disgusted? .....
What think ye?[/QUOTE]

nobdysfool said:

Hey bro, I got yer back. ......... Somehow, someway, he needs to be shut down.

Click to expand...

Not pot stiring and not making false accusation either.

Pinkman · Oct 3, 2011

heymikey80 said:
Pinkman, I've actually seen this to be true of you instead from your postings. Once again you've made arrogations of statements as if to commend your position, but it's fallen flat. Your position can't comprehend any other solution than the one you've hit on -- somehow associating the evils you've been through with Calvinism itself, and thus flailing against an international viewpoint that has rarely ever caused the issues you endured.

Well that's an issue with your particular position. It's so filled with hatred that it can't see past its own little world of hatreds.

Apparently not, as you brought it up at first. Healed wounds don't cause such violent words in reaction. The reaction you expressed more than once demonstrates the absence of healing, and indeed a great deal of hurt.

I didn't bring it up. You did.

The thread stands testimony to your preconceptions dictating your hatreds.

Application is here on the thread for all to see. No mind-reading necessary.

I've bothered to read. But no reason now to read about your hatred of the history you called attention to. You've just said it doesn't matter.

Ah, good. Let me take this opportunity to flout your history as well. Your history is irrelevant to the discussion.

A bit of advice for you mike

nobdysfool said:
Two weeks ago today, Soteriology was temporarily closed down. There is a post stating that it will re-open today. No time was specified.

What any of us who choose to participate in that forum need to keep in mind is that the personal attacks must not come from our side. I will admit to having made some, and I intend to avoid that going forward. Stick to the subject, present the Truth, and do not respond in kind to personal attacks, but rather report them. We need to avoid the temptation to nail them with the zingers that we can all too easily come up with. The Truth will prevail.

Pinkman · Oct 3, 2011

Short Summary

The Calvinist view of the human condition is one of complete and utter depravity. They do not deny that man sometimes does things that are good. However, his fallen condition makes it utterly impossible for him to live righteously. He inevitably gives in to his fallen nature inherited from Adam. Because of this, he is utterly incapable of producing what is necessary for salvation — faith. Man's apparent free will is guided by his passions, which are corrupt. Yes, he is free to choose. But, he does not have the capacity to choose what is good because the pressure from his fallen nature overpowers his reasoning abilities. Therefore, if man is to be saved, God must do everything necessary, including giving him the faith to believe, regenerating his nature so that he can believe.

Since Calvinists believe man is incapable of responding to God's offer of salvation, they presume that God enlightens only those who are elect with a supernatural understanding that is withheld from the non-elect. Without this illumination, or infusion of understanding, which God gives or withholds according to His choice, man cannot respond to God. God ultimately decides by His sovereignty whether to provide what is necessary for man to believe the Gospel. He withholds this revelation from all the non-elect, but provides it for the "elect."

Pinkman · Oct 3, 2011

Calvinists usually misrepresent the real Arminian position regarding the human condition. For example, Rev. William MacLean M.A, writes, "Arminians deny the total depravity of man, in that they hold that the will of man is free and has the ability to choose Christ and the salvation that is in Him."2 Yet, the third article of the Arminian Remonstrance states "That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the working of his own free-will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can for himself and by himself think nothing that is good — nothing, that is, truly good, such as saving faith is, above all else. But that it is necessary that by God, in Christ and through His Holy Spirit he be born again and renewed in understanding, affections and will and in all his faculties, that he may be able to understand, think, will, and perform what is truly good, according to the Word of God."

Pinkman · Oct 3, 2011

The issue of "original sin" is an area of some disagreement. We agree that the consequences of Adam's sin is death for all Adam's descendants. That is, all are adversely affected because of Adam's sin. But, Calvinists think it was "spiritual death" that Adam experienced, not physical death. Boettner claimed that Adam, being the federal head of the human race, sinned for the whole race. That is, since all men were potential in Adam, we are all responsible for Adam's "original sin," and are eternally condemned because of Adam's transgression. Therefore, every baby, at the moment of birth, is guilty before God, and is condemned.

Augustine went so far as to claim that all infants who died without "baptism" to remove the stain of "original sin" were damned and went to hell forever. Infants who were baptized were righteous before God until they were able to understand sin. Roman Catholics continued to teach the Augustinian view of "original sin" with infant baptism being the cure. The Reformed churches also continue to practice infant baptism, despite the complete lack of biblical precedent.

Pinkman · Oct 3, 2011

There are many general offers of salvation to all in Scripture. Such offers imply the capacity of people to respond. If all men are capable of responding to the Gospel, God's offers of grace to "whosoever will" are valid offers. If all men are not capable to respond, then God's offers are somewhat of a farce. The capacity to respond to the Gospel might be something inherent in all humans, or else God could grant to all who will hear the Gospel the ability to respond at the time they hear.

The offers of salvation to the unsaved include direct appeals to the reasoning powers of unsaved men, their inherent ability to choose, and their ability to seek after God. For example:

Isaiah 1
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isaiah 45
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isaiah 55
6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Revelation 22
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

These kinds of general offers to all the unsaved strongly imply that all who choose to come can be saved. If not, the offers cannot be genuine and sincere. In today's climate, if Calvinism is true, God could be sued for false advertising.

Pinkman · Oct 3, 2011

Are Men Born Reprobates?

Paul described people who are "reprobates" whom God has given over to a "reprobate mind" because of their constant refusal to acknowledge Him, after repeatedly being enlightened and drawn by Him. "Reprobates" perfectly fit the Calvinist's idea of "total depravity." But, Paul made it abundantly clear in Romans one that a person is not born a "reprobate," but becomes one after continually resisting God's offers of grace and mercy. This is NOT the condition of mankind in general. In other words, he is not born in a state of "total depravity" as defined by Calvinists. He BECOMES totally depraved through resisting God's grace. His condition at birth is innocence. He becomes a sinner when he rebels against God in accord with his fallen nature. He is as described by Paul, being lost and incapable of changing his situation without God's direct intervention.

Rom 1:16-28
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein [in the Gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but BECAME vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
(KJV)

Pinkman · Oct 3, 2011

Does God Draw the Non-Elect?
Calvinism's "Total Depravity" claim lays the logical foundation for the idea that God only enlightens and draws a few "elect" individuals. But, as is plain from Romans 1, the whole premise of "total depravity" is flawed at its very foundation. God draws ALL MEN to repentance, as we will prove as we proceed.

John 1:8-12
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(KJV)

John 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(KJV)

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
(KJV)

Christ enlightens "EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD!" He draws "ALL MEN" unto Himself. Surely He drew those Paul described in Romans 1.

We agree with Calvinists that being "dead in sins" means that one cannot save himself, and without such enlightenment, one cannot choose God. However, we do not agree that God only gives such light to the "elect." It is perfectly clear that God draws and enlightens ALL MEN, by revealing Himself through creation and through the gospel, even those who will become reprobates and go straight to hell.

Skala · Oct 3, 2011

Pelagianism is a nasty heresy.

Pinkman · Oct 3, 2011

Ref PFRS Calvinism - Total Depravity for the above.

Seems a fair Summary of several threads does it not ?

Skala · Oct 3, 2011

Does God Draw the Non-Elect?
Calvinism's "Total Depravity" claim lays the logical foundation for the idea that God only enlightens and draws a few "elect" individuals. But, as is plain from Romans 1, the whole premise of "total depravity" is flawed at its very foundation. God draws ALL MEN to repentance, as we will prove as we proceed.

First, it's not a "few" individuals. It's multitudes, too many to number, that God freely saves. Talk about using pejorative language to cause an emotional response.

Second, there's no need to put "elect" in quotes, as if it's not a Biblical word/concept. "But for the sake of the elect, WHOM HE CHOSE, God shortened the days..." Mark 13:20

John 1:8-12
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(KJV)

And what is the same author, John's description of people? They hate the light. They don't freely and willingly, by default, lovingly embrace the light.

John 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

John 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(KJV)

Both Jews and Greeks? Or every single individual since Adam?

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
(KJV)

And?

Christ enlightens "EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD!" He draws "ALL MEN" unto Himself. Surely He drew those Paul described in Romans 1.

There's no need to put ALL MEN in all capitals, because it could mean one of two things, according to the Greek language. It's funny that you always want to impose the meaning "ALL INDIVIDUALS" onto the phrase "pas anthropos". It's called eisegesis.

We agree with Calvinists that being "dead in sins" means that one cannot save himself, [/B]and without such enlightenment, one cannot choose God. However, we do not agree that God only gives such light to the "elect." It is perfectly clear that God draws and enlightens ALL MEN, by revealing Himself through creation and through the gospel, even those who will become reprobates and go straight to hell.

I'm more worried about whether you agree with Paul who said "you were dead, God made you alive"

Not "you were dead, and you made yourself alive by an act of your will by cooperating with God's resurrecting efforts"

Imagine, going to a graveyard and offering life to any corpse that will just accept it. How many positive responses will you get?

Zero.

You must make someone alive before they can respond.

Pinkman · Oct 3, 2011

You must make someone alive before they can respond.

How then do they keep resisting if they are dead ?

rturner76 · Oct 3, 2011

Skala said:
Not "you were dead, and you made yourself alive by an act of your will by cooperating with God's resurrecting efforts"

Imagine, going to a graveyard and offering life to any corpse that will just accept it. How many positive responses will you get?

Zero.

You must make someone alive before they can respond.

Gods saving grace has been given to all. All are made alive through Christ not just the elect. Once you are made alive, THEN you may respond to the grace having already been given. It is a misconception to say you made yourself alive. No, God made you alive and you decided to remain in that grace and grow in your relationship together. It's more about how you live than how you were predetermined to die. You do have a choice

Skala · Oct 3, 2011

rturner76 said:
Gods saving grace has been given to all. All are made alive through Christ not just the elect. Once you are made alive, THEN you may respond to the grace having already been given. It is a misconception to say you made yourself alive. No, God made you alive and you decided to remain in that grace and grow in your relationship together. It's more about how you live than how you were predetermined to die. You do have a choice

You have some strange ideas that not even your own arminian brethren would agree with brother.

All are made alive by Christ, ie all are regenerate/born again even without believing?

Skala · Oct 3, 2011

Pinkman said:
You must make someone alive before they can respond.

How then do they keep resisting if they are dead ?

This is a dumb question, because the analogy of being dead is the Apostle Paul's, not mine.

By your reasoning in asking how can a dead person resist, the following quesiton could be posed to Paul:

"Paul, how can dead people walk, following the course of the world, following the prince of the power of the air, living int he passions of their flesh and being disobedient, and carrying out the desires of the body and mind? DUH, you silly Apostle Paul, they're dead! They can't do any of that stuff!"

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved

Understanding Calvinism

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I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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