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Understanding Calvinism

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heymikey80

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I'm saying that your man-made finite logic regarding an infinite's God's dealing with man is meaningless.
Okay, now you have no cause to post:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7595258/

... for God's logic is higher than yours, so your position is vanquished.

or http://www.christianforums.com/t7596902/

... for God's logic is higher than yours, so your position is vanquished.

or http://www.christianforums.com/t7596135/

... for God's logic is higher than yours, so your position is vanquished.

In short, you have no reason to answer anyone with anything, because the words don't mean anything to an infinite God.

Baby -- meet the bathwater.

Once again, the opposition's "logic" is hog-tied by its own fallacies. They've lost meaning in the words they've used to try to communicate their position. So the theology itself has become meaningless to humans.

And lack of meaning is not attributable to God. So the study of God -- Theo-logy -- is no longer the name for this viewpoint of God. It's not study any more. It's opinion unhinged from consistency.
 
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heymikey80

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I have never knowingly seen any kind of vampirism or undead creatures myself but I won't say it's not possible.

What does this have to do with Calvinism?
If the dead don't walk, then the dead are lost.

No? Why not?
 
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Pinkman

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Hi Nobdysfool

I can back it up by trawling back through a load of posts. I did not imagine them. Then we can argue some more.

No I am not trying to stir up strife. In fact the opposite. You said in a recent post "C'mon - lets get past the calvinist vs Arminian..." paraphrased but I am sure you know what I mean.

Amen to that. Absolutely right.

In another thread you are alluding to what I am thinking- no I cannot express it well at the moment. Here is a crass go.

Depravity and Inability 101 post 68
Perhaps I'm just not succeeding at expressing my thoughts
No worries. we all do the same.

Put it this way: I don't believe that God decrees individually every breath I take......
I am thinking along the same lines. We are NOT puppets. I will fight that until my last breathe.


An analogy
Consider the Calvinism vs Arminiam debate along a 1 dimensional line.
Traditionally we place ourselves some where on that line and slag off anyone who is on a different position. Boring stuff that fills many threads,

My conviction is this. The one dimension is nuts. Maybe its two or even three dimensions. Mr well balanced grey says we have to keep free will vs Gods sovereignty in tension. I say no we have to sort it out and get to the foundation.

Very hard I know. In that post you said "especially if there is also a glass of wine, or a good beer to go with it."

If I have to buy you a crate of wine I will do that, and pay for the P&P to ship it half way around the world. Seriously. Humanity can get passed this 'whatever it is' and figure it out. Maybe an updated canon of 'who cares where'.

Just unity.
 
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rturner76

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I just ran across this list of things that Jesus said. None of which tell me that there are people he will refuse to save. We are all called we all have a chance. Who will answer the call. It is here,
Matthew 11:15 (Matthew 11)

He who has ears to hear,1 let him hear.



Even the hairs of your head are numbered. Matthew 10:30

Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps My word, he will never see death. John 8:51

This is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast send. John 17:3

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the son of man be lifted up, and whoever believes in him may have eternal life. John 3:14-15

I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. John 11:25-26

For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

Whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life. John 3:14

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The cup that I drink you will drink; and with the baptism with which I am baptized; but to sit at My right hand or at My left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared. Mark 10:39-40

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for My name's sake, will receive a hundred-fold, and inherit eternal life. But many will that are first will be last, and the last first. Matthew 19:29-30
 
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rturner76

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Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been given to him by My Father. John 6:65

Agreed, and it is an invitation given to all. God has called, died for your sins and made a way for you....All who respond will be saved

John 3:17 (John 3)

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
 
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ConsumedByHisCall

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Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been given to him by My Father. John 6:65

And who would have been given to him by the Father at that point in history?

ANSWER: The remnant of Israel: Those reserved from the hardening process and chosen to carry the message of redemption to the rest of the world.

The gospel was sent to the world AFTER Christ was raised up, thereby "drawing all men to himself." Until that point the message was hidden in parables and God was blinding them from seeing the truth. (John 12:39-40)

John 6 is true for us today as well because no one can come unless invited. "How will the hear unless someone tell them." But you must understand that no one was really openly telling them the gospel in its fulness at this point, so they were not enabled to come. The GOSPEL is the means God has chosen to draw all men to himself and that Gospel was not sent into the world when John 6 took place.
 
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heymikey80

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That's not what the passage says:

The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe. This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is given him by the Father. John 6:63-65

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me John 6:39
 
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rturner76

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I am in agreement. ALL are given to believe, believe and you have fulfilled the covenant. We are all invited to believe.
 
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Pinkman

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Good Post.

Am I biased ?

Oh yes.

God is the God of love.

If you disagree, google 'the girl in the picture' You will see Kim Phuc -napalmed. Do you conclude "reprobate - foreigner and so forth"

Or do you feel some pain.

I assert God did not predestine this. Just man doing what man does. And it is here I think Calvinist c0ck things up big time. Not saying the opposition don't makes the same mistakes.

My contention is to get past 16th century medieval dogma.

My call is for unity in the Christian faith. can someone help me out
 
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heymikey80

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I am in agreement. ALL are given to believe, believe and you have fulfilled the covenant. We are all invited to believe.
All that the Father gives me shall come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37
 
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ConsumedByHisCall

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Have any of the Calvinists here actually dealt with the claims of a true scholarly view of John 6 from an Arminian perspective? I'm not asking you to agree, but at least engage it and demonstrate an understanding before dismissing it out of hand.

Do you deny that God's means for calling men to salvation is the gospel?
Do you deny that the Gospel is a gracious powerful work of the Spirit in and of itself?
Do you deny that at the time John 6 happened that the Gospel had yet to be sent to "every creature?"
Do you deny that at this time the Jews were being hardened in their rebellion so they could not see, hear, understand and repent, lest they be healed?

How is this not relevant to the author's intent, especially in light that he is speaking to a hardened Jewish audience and the few He hand selected out of Israel to be his apostles?
 
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