Understanding Arminians (from a former arminian)

[JackSparrow]

Either you accept God created every sinner or you don't , I see sinners everywhere and I don't guess who created them , I know

Hopefully responsible sinners. Beware of the irresponsible ones.

 

[Keachian]

Hopefully responsible sinners. Beware of the irresponsible ones.

All are responsible for their sin so I don't think that's a problem. What I think is a problem is whether they have purpose, all too often I see God being portrayed as reactionary by Arminians, this is not how I see the Bible portraying it, Sin is not purposeless and then put by God to his own use, God's purpose is worked out in all things.

 

[elman]

All are responsible for their sin so I don't think that's a problem. What I think is a problem is whether they have purpose, all too often I see God being portrayed as reactionary by Arminians, this is not how I see the Bible portraying it, Sin is not purposeless and then put by God to his own use, God's purpose is worked out in all things.

God is not the one who sins when I sin. God did not create that sin, I did. God does not create us as sinners already guilty of having done unloving things.

 

[Shulamite]

God is not the one who sins when I sin. God did not create that sin, I did. God does not create us as sinners already guilty of having done unloving things.

God creates thorn bush. Thorn bush produces thorns. Can a thorn bush produce or BE anything other than a thorn bush or it's "fruit" be other than thorns? No. The thorn bush is producing the thorns, not the Creator who made it!

Can God create something as a tool and use it for His purposes, even if that "tool" in His hand is evil, without Himself being evil? Yes.

ALL things were made by Him and FOR Him. Notice it's not SOME things in creation are made for Him, but all, yes, even the wicked are tools in His hand to accomplish His will.

Yet because God ordains certain tools be used for His glory, does not make Him evil.

Romans 9:19 Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them do?"

This argument sounds vaguely familiar! Paul had the same objections Calvinists have. Hmmmm..... Paul states that there is no injustice with God, yet He does ordain all things for one purpose: His glory. ANd who are WE to tell God He cannot do something because it defies our human wisdom or what WE deem justice? Who does God answer to?

 

[Keachian]

God is not the one who sins when I sin.

I'm not saying that God is the one sinning

God did not create that sin, I did.

So when God wanted to crucify Christ he had to sit around waiting for the pharisees to decide to kill him? That's not the gospel story I know, Christ is methodical and knows exactly when the right time to finish his ministry by coming into Jerusalem and letting himself be caught and then crucified.

God does not create us as sinners already guilty of having done unloving things.

No he doesn't but we are sinful in the womb before we even start breathing.

 

[Arcoe]

God creates thorn bush. Thorn bush produces thorns. Can a thorn bush produce or BE anything other than a thorn bush or it's "fruit" be other than thorns? No. The thorn bush is producing the thorns, not the Creator who made it!

How about a crown?

Can God create something as a tool and use it for His purposes, even if that "tool" in His hand is evil, without Himself being evil? Yes.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

ALL things were made by Him and FOR Him. Notice it's not SOME things in creation are made for Him, but all, yes, even the wicked are tools in His hand to accomplish His will.

I'm going to pull a 'Calvinspeak' on you. ALL does NOT mean ALL. : )

Yet because God ordains certain tools be used for His glory, does not make Him evil.

Romans 9:19 Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them do?"

This argument sounds vaguely familiar! Paul had the same objections Calvinists have. Hmmmm..... Paul states that there is no injustice with God, yet He does ordain all things for one purpose: His glory. ANd who are WE to tell God He cannot do something because it defies our human wisdom or what WE deem justice?

Likewise, who is to tell God, He can't give man free will? Who is to tell God, that salvation is monergistic? Who is to tell God, He must decree and ordain all things according to our feeble minds? Who is to tell God we cannot obey?

Who does God answer to?

Calvinsim?

 

[Keachian]

Likewise, who is to tell God, He can't give man free will? Who is to tell God, that salvation is monergistic? Who is to tell God, He must decree and ordain all things according to our feeble minds? Who is to tell God we cannot obey?

He can totally do so, that's not what he said he did though.

 

[cygnusx1]

Hopefully responsible sinners. Beware of the irresponsible ones.

God created them , I know of no human who wasn't created using two parents , procreation is still creation , the hint is in the word

 

[Shulamite]

How about a crown?



Guns don't kill people, people kill people.



I'm going to pull a 'Calvinspeak' on you. ALL does NOT mean ALL. : )


Likewise, who is to tell God, He can't give man free will? Who is to tell God, that salvation is monergistic? Who is to tell God, He must decree and ordain all things according to our feeble minds? Who is to tell God we cannot obey?



Calvinsim?

1.) The word "ALL" is used differently depending on the translation of the sentence and the implied meaning of the sentence.
Example:

a.) The chief priests of Jesus' day said, "Look! The whole world has gone after Him!"
Does the statement, "Whole world" mean so literally? Yes or no?
Did the whole world really go after Jesus? We both know the answer.

If you are familiar with the original language in which the scriptures are written, you will know that foreign languages that are translated into english can sometimes LOSE their original intent/meaning. I speak Spanish and some Russian and I know from experience that spanish, for instance, some words are definitive and precise when they are used, but when translated into english, lose that definitive, particular meaning and WHEN translated, have a more "broad sense" translation in English.

The scriptures must be read by the Power of the Spirit and using proper language translations.

If Jesus truly had call "ALL" in the world, then the entire world would come and be saved. We know this is not the case.

2.) CAN God give men free will? Nothing is impossible with God. But, He didn't give men free will

3.)As far as the "gun" argument...well, that is a discussion for another day on another thread.... but God can indeed ordain evil for His purposes without Himself being evil. He raised up Pharoah, hardened his heart so that His glory could be seen. Vessels of wrath are used for God's purposes and just because God created vessels of wrath does not make Him evil.

A "tool" is NOT it's maker. The maker may fashion a vessel without Himself BEING the vessel. When God made man (a tool in His hand) did He not say, "God is not a man that He should lie?" God repeatedly separates Himself apart from the creatures He has made and so it is with the "tools" He chooses to use for His purpose.

 

[gmm4j]

1.) The word "ALL" is used differently depending on the translation of the sentence and the implied meaning of the sentence.

Like when in Scripture it says that ALL men are unable to believe. Oh ya, it doesn't say that ALL men are unable to believe , Instead Scripture says,


Luke 2:10-11
But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

John 1:7-8
He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all

John 17:20-21
"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

 

[Arcoe]

1.) The word "ALL" is used differently depending on the translation of the sentence and the implied meaning of the sentence.
Example:

a.) The chief priests of Jesus' day said, "Look! The whole world has gone after Him!"
Does the statement, "Whole world" mean so literally? Yes or no?
Did the whole world really go after Jesus? We both know the answer.

If you are familiar with the original language in which the scriptures are written, you will know that foreign languages that are translated into english can sometimes LOSE their original intent/meaning. I speak Spanish and some Russian and I know from experience that spanish, for instance, some words are definitive and precise when they are used, but when translated into english, lose that definitive, particular meaning and WHEN translated, have a more "broad sense" translation in English.

I am familiar how Calvinists use the word 'all'. They use it in any way they choose which confirms their beliefs. That's okay, man has the free will to believe however he/she desires.

The scriptures must be read by the Power of the Spirit and using proper language translations.

If Jesus truly had call "ALL" in the world, then the entire world would come and be saved. We know this is not the case.

If Jesus had truly elected all believers to be holy and blameless, then every believer would be holy and blameless, and we know this is not the case.

2.) CAN God give men free will? Nothing is impossible with God. But, He didn't give men free will

And every person has the free will to believe this or not.

3.)As far as the "gun" argument...well, that is a discussion for another day on another thread.... but God can indeed ordain evil for His purposes without Himself being evil. He raised up Pharoah, hardened his heart so that His glory could be seen. Vessels of wrath are used for God's purposes and just because God created vessels of wrath does not make Him evil.

And what if He ordained you in the same way He did Pharaoh? Since you have no free will to obey His commands, you just might be in the same boat as Pharaoh. Scary thought, isn't it? And remember, you can't talk back to Him, just accept your decreed destiny.

I'm sure Judas believed he was the elect, being chosen by Jesus Himself, and given spiritual truths from the Master Himself. So, just believing you are the elect, does not ensure your entrance into heaven.

A "tool" is NOT it's maker. The maker may fashion a vessel without Himself BEING the vessel. When God made man (a tool in His hand) did He not say, "God is not a man that He should lie?" God repeatedly separates Himself apart from the creatures He has made and so it is with the "tools" He chooses to use for His purpose.

If He separates Himself from His creation, how is it that man is made in His image and likeness?

 

[vette 10]

I am familiar how Calvinists use the word 'all'. They use it in any way they choose which confirms their beliefs. That's okay, man has the free will to believe however he/she desires.



If Jesus had truly elected all believers to be holy and blameless, then every believer would be holy and blameless, and we know this is not the case.



And every person has the free will to believe this or not.



And what if He ordained you in the same way He did Pharaoh? Since you have no free will to obey His commands, you just might be in the same boat as Pharaoh. Scary thought, isn't it? And remember, you can't talk back to Him, just accept your decreed destiny.

I'm sure Judas believed he was the elect, being chosen by Jesus Himself, and given spiritual truths from the Master Himself. So, just believing you are the elect, does not ensure your entrance into heaven.



If He separates Himself from His creation, how is it that man is made in His image and likeness?

I see nothing in scripture that state or implies that Judas thought he was elect or even cared, he was a thief and was out for him self

 

[Skala]

I am familiar how Calvinists use the word 'all'. They use it in any way they choose which confirms their beliefs. That's okay, man has the free will to believe however he/she desires.

Arcoe, this isn't fair. For the same can be true of Arminians. They use it in any way which supports what they want the text to say, do they not?

When the author uses "pas" and could possibly mean "some of all kinds" which is a viable definition of the word (Check your concordance), the Arminian refuses to believe that is a possibility and insists that the word always means "all without exception", does he not? He (the Arminian) does the same thing with the word "kosmos"

The most you can blame the Calvinist for doing is recognize that the authors of the NT used both definitions of the word(s) - and that's hardly an accusation.

 

[drstevej]

Well said Skala

 

[Jack Terrence]

I am familiar how Calvinists use the word 'all'. They use it in any way they choose which confirms their beliefs. That's okay, man has the free will to believe however he/she desires.

Paul said that the gospel had gone out into "ALL the world" and that it had been preached to "EVERY creature under heaven" (Colossians 1:6; 23). The Greek word "pas" is used in both statements.

Do you believe that the gospel had reached the entire globe and that it had been preached to every human being on the globe? If you say no, then you are using the word "all" (pas) in a way to confirm your beliefs. If you say yes, you have your head in the sand.

If Jesus had truly elected all believers to be holy and blameless, then every believer would be holy and blameless, and we know this is not the case.

Paul said that the church would be presented to Christ "holy and without blemish" and that the body, soul and spirt would be "preserved blameless" until His coming (Eph. 5:17; 1 Thess. 5:23-24).

Why do you deny the truth?

 

[Shulamite]

I am familiar how Calvinists use the word 'all'. They use it in any way they choose which confirms their beliefs. That's okay, man has the free will to believe however he/she desires.



If Jesus had truly elected all believers to be holy and blameless, then every believer would be holy and blameless, and we know this is not the case.



And every person has the free will to believe this or not.



And what if He ordained you in the same way He did Pharaoh? Since you have no free will to obey His commands, you just might be in the same boat as Pharaoh. Scary thought, isn't it? And remember, you can't talk back to Him, just accept your decreed destiny.

I'm sure Judas believed he was the elect, being chosen by Jesus Himself, and given spiritual truths from the Master Himself. So, just believing you are the elect, does not ensure your entrance into heaven.



If He separates Himself from His creation, how is it that man is made in His image and likeness?

We have the freedom to choose with the WILL God gives us.

The point that I have no power over God to make Him choose me is what causes me to fear Him. If God chose for me to be a vessel prepared for destruction, then I have no ability to stop Him. I am totally in His hands. He is worthy and has the
to do with me whatever HE wills and no, I cannot hold God to account! Who does God answer to??? will? Romans9 tells us that "it is NOT up to the man who wills". God's Sovereignty causes my heart to fear Him and also have assurance of salvation because it was not based on me, but Him.

 

[Shulamite]

BTW, my last post/answer was made on my phone, so if there are typos, that's why.