Understanding Arminians (from a former arminian)

[Shulamite]

In all honesty, I totally understand an Arminian's objection to Calvinism. I used to be an arminian "free will" believer. It wasn't until a few years ago that the Lord pulled back the veil for me and revealed to me His Sovereignty and totally took away from me a belief in "I chose" and "free will".

What I am about to say is based on my PAST belief in free will and WHY I believe arminians have such a struggle with Calvinism (the Gospel of God's Sovereignty).

We are taught by our parents, pastors, books and theologians galore (since childhood) that since we are made in God's image, we have the right to choose, FREE WILL. This doctrine appealed to my flesh. Our flesh wants to be in control. The natural man's ways are NOT God's ways and His wisdom is multi-faceted, and therefore this thinking of NOT having free will is appalling to us, it's offensive and defies human logic!

When the Lord began to strip me of doctrines taught by well-meaning-men and loved ones, He pulled back the veil and revealed this fearful, yet wonderful mystery of His Sovereignty. Until He does so, you will object, stomp your feet, resist and battle against Sovereignty. Sovereignty destroys pride, it brings pride into bowing the knee.

Even the scriptures state that one day every angel, demon and fallen angel, WILL BOW before God and confess that Jesus is Lord! Do these evil angels and wicked choose to do this? Nope. They will be MADE to bend the knee and acknowledge that Jesus is God, whether they want to or not.

Having free will means I am master of my own fate, decider of my own destiny and this once appealed to me! It made me feel secure and in control. How wrong I was. God may have let me rest in a "feeling" of control, but I was not, even if He let me think I was.

He subtely put things in my path to show me otherwise. The only way I can describe it is "I was once blind to this and now I see". I didn't have the power or ability to choose to see this.... it's ALL God's work in me and it was His pleasure and will to show me His Sovereignty.

So, honestly, I can see WHY an arminian, free will believer will fight this, rail against it and take offense. I can! I used to feel this way, so I can relate. He's forever changed me and now knowing His Sovereignty has caused me to FEAR Him in ways I never knew possible.

I admit that as an arminian free will thinker, I used to say, "Jesus is Lord" or "God is in control", but did I REALLY mean that? To what EXTENT did I mean that? Was I just saying it? When someone would tell me I didn't choose, I'd get angry and defensive! Why??? Did it offend my fleshly, "old man" nature to be told this? Yes......

In speaking with the Lord about all of this, He has convinced me that my job NOW is NOT to convince people, or think I can. His mandate is to simply "bear witness" to the truth, plant the seeds, and then He brings the harvest.

 

[ananda]

The natural man's ways are NOT God's ways and His wisdom is multi-faceted, and therefore this thinking of NOT having free will is appalling to us, it's offensive and defies human logic!

This statement is antithetical to Calvinism. If Elohim is sovereign over all men's actions, then all of natural man's ways are indeed Elohim's ways, for He has ordained them.

 

[JackSparrow]

Well Shulamite, US arminian is most definitely different to UK arminian. All the mastership and self rights you speak of is an anathema to any church I have ever been in.

James Arminius regarding Free Will:

"... This is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace..." – Works, Vol. I, James Arminius (Sentiments)

Arminius was in fact very close to Calvinism of his time.

 

[Shulamite]

This statement is antithetical to Calvinism. If Elohim is sovereign over all men's actions, then all of natural man's ways are indeed Elohim's ways, for He has ordained them.

Respectfully, my answer is that the Lord ordains that evil be used for His purpose (If He didn't, then it wouldn't happen or be allowed to happen since nothing happens apart from His ordained will, whether good or bad). To ordain to USE something as a tool does not mean those ways are His ways (or pertain to His own divine nature). He uses men's actions, predetermined by Him, to bring about His good pleasure, which He purposed before creation.

To say that satan or any other wicked being, although used by God to accomplish His purpose, are God's ways PERSONALLY is not what Calvinists are saying. What we say is that God preordains and allows men's actions to accomplish His Sovereign will throughout history.

 

[Skala]

This statement is antithetical to Calvinism. If Elohim is sovereign over all men's actions, then all of natural man's ways are indeed Elohim's ways, for He has ordained them.

This is not true. It seems clear that what the OP is getting at is the intentions of man. All of man's "ways" are, indeed, against and opposite to God's "ways".

The Bible is clear on this point. Man's intentions are evil, his heart is evil, even from his youth.

This is quite different from speaking about whether evil actions are ordained/permitted by the God who is sovereign over all things (which He is)

 

[ananda]

He uses men's actions, predetermined by Him, to bring about His good pleasure, which He purposed before creation. To say that satan or any other wicked being, although used by God to accomplish His purpose, are God's ways PERSONALLY is not what Calvinists are saying. What we say is that God preordains and allows men's actions to accomplish His Sovereign will throughout history.

If He preordained satan's & men's actions, then those actions originate from YHWH, and not from satan or man.

 

[Shulamite]

If He preordained satan's & men's actions, then those actions originate from YHWH, and not from satan or man.

Permit me to ask you a question to answer your statement. If a person allows something, in full knowledge of it, and this person does nothing to stop or prevent it, is that person still responsible? Yes or no?

Let me put this another way. If YOU have prior knowledge of something happening or of someone's actions, and you permit it anyway, are you held responsible for NOT stopping it? Why or why not?

God is the author of everything in all of creation. I can fashion a hammer as my tool and the hammer cannot stop being a hammer, which is what I fashioned it to be, yet I choose how to use that hammer, for my purposes. God fashions vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, for His purposes (Romans 9).

 

[Arcoe]

I admit that as an arminian free will thinker, I used to say, "Jesus is Lord" or "God is in control", but did I REALLY mean that? To what EXTENT did I mean that? Was I just saying it? When someone would tell me I didn't choose, I'd get angry and defensive! Why??? Did it offend my fleshly, "old man" nature to be told this? Yes......

No offense Shula, but you said you were formerly a free-will arminian, but somehow you have used your free will to choose to believe Calvinism now. Did you not freely choose Calvinism over Arminianism? If you didn't do this freely, were you coerced? How do you believe Calvinism now if you didn't freely choose to believe it?

In speaking with the Lord about all of this, He has convinced me that my job NOW is NOT to convince people, or think I can. His mandate is to simply "bear witness" to the truth, plant the seeds, and then He brings the harvest.

Do you freely of your will do this 'job' God has given you to do? Or, is a slavemaster at your back forcing you to do this? Either one does something freely or forced, there is no in between. Even if the Lord convinces you, you must still freely decide of yourself to do this 'job', or it will not get done.

The Lord has convinced every believer, through His word, they should abstain from wickedness. How is it some do not heed this? Do they not freely choose from themselves to either obey or not obey the Lord?

 

[Shulamite]

Hello Arco,

With all respect, I did NOT choose Calvinism or to agree with the Lord's Sovereignty. If I was left to myself, I would never have chosen Calvinism or freely decided anything for the Lord.

I give all that I know, understand and have done to the Lord's working and willing IN me. 0% SHULA and 100% GOD.

 

[Skala]

No offense Shula, but you said you used to be a free-will arminian, but somehow you have used your free will to choose to believe Calvinism now. Did you not freely choose Calvinism over Arminianism? If you didn't do this freely, were you coerced? How do you believe Calvinism now if you didn't freely choose to believe it?

Two things:

1) God works through means

2) The faculty of "choice" is not non-existent in the Calvinist worldview.

It seems like understanding those two things could go a long way in your understanding of reformed theology. (even if you disagree, understanding still helps)

 

[ananda]

Permit me to ask you a question to answer your statement. If a person allows something, in full knowledge of it, and this person does nothing to stop or prevent it, is that person still responsible? Yes or no? Let me put this another way. If YOU have prior knowledge of something happening or of someone's actions, and you permit it anyway, are you held responsible for NOT stopping it? Why or why not? God is the author of everything in all of creation. I can fashion a hammer as my tool and the hammer cannot stop being a hammer, which is what I fashioned it to be, yet I choose how to use that hammer, for my purposes. God fashions vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, for His purposes (Romans 9).

Perhaps I did not make myself clear, and I apologize.

You stated: "What we say is that God preordains". The very definition of "ordain" is "to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law" - a very active role.

Now, in your most recent comment which I quoted above, you seem to backtrack from this definition to allow for independent action on the part of the created being, and you seem to suggest that YHWH has a passive role, in approving of but not directly ordering man's actions.

Which is it - is YHWH passive (He allows/permits man's actions to fulfill His purpose) or is YHWH active (He pre-orders man's actions from eternity's past to fulfill His purpose)?

If passive, then this allows for man's freewill & choice. If active, then man has no freewill or choice, and all of man's actions are ultimately YHWH's responsibility.

 

[JackSparrow]

2) The faculty of "choice" is not non-existent in the Calvinist worldview.

I'd be interested to read volumes on this.

 

[seeingeyes]

Having free will means I am master of my own fate, decider of my own destiny and this once appealed to me! It made me feel secure and in control. How wrong I was. God may have let me rest in a "feeling" of control, but I was not, even if He let me think I was.

This is not at all the 'heart' behind free-will theology.

The idea is that if man has no 'choice' but to act as he does, then he cannot justly be held accountable for his actions.

I have yet to hear a viable counter-claim to this point. Man simply is, somehow, magically accountable for his non-choices because God claims to be just, therefore He is just regardless of what he actually does.

Until a Calvinist brother can come up with a non-'mystery' answer to that problem, the debate will go on and on and on.

 

[ananda]

I give all that I know, understand and have done to the Lord's working and willing IN me. 0% SHULA and 100% GOD.

No offense meant, but I've heard Calvinists state this in various ways, and claim that by attributing all things to YHWH's control, they are giving Him the ultimate glory.

I disagree.

I suggest that it magnifies YHWH even more when His creatures glorifies Him as a result their own free will & choice.

It magnifies a husband when his wife freely and willingly works with Him to further their common interests (e.g. Prov 31 woman), and all of creation witnesses her freely loving behavior (Prov 31:23,31).

Calvinism attempts to magnify YHWH's power. Arminiansm (for lack of a better term) magnifies YHWH's love. Which attribute of YHWH is magnified in Scripture?

 

[Arcoe]

Two things:

1) God works through means

Thank you Skala. I understand He works through means. Maybe you can show me how that applies to my questions. Below I give a scenario in which I would say God works through means. Is this what you meant?

2) The faculty of "choice" is not non-existent in the Calvinist worldview.

Exactly, free-will choice is man's only means by which he decides to do anything. That which a man does not will, he will not do, unless coerced by an outside force. If you didn't use your free-will choice, you not only wouldn't believe in Calvinist doctrine, but you wouldn't believe in anything.

It seems like understanding those two things could go a long way in your understanding of reformed theology. (even if you disagree, understanding still helps)

You know Skala, I have been on this board long enough to see Calvinist views. But I can't wrap my mind around it for the contradictions, various meaning of words, and ever-changing views of some Calvinists on here. One believes this, another believes the opposite.

If I ask if God causes evil, thus sin, I can guarantee not all Calvinists would agree with this. So, how am I to know who is presenting me the 'correct' Calvinist doctrine? Should I take your views as the 'correct' beliefs of Calvinism?

 

[Shulamite]

Perhaps I did not make myself clear, and I apologize.

You stated: "What we say is that God preordains". The very definition of "ordain" is "to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law" - a very active role.

Now, in your most recent comment which I quoted above, you seem to backtrack from this definition to allow for independent action on the part of the created being, and you seem to suggest that YHWH has a passive role, in approving of but not directly ordering man's actions.

Which is it - is YHWH passive (He allows man's actions to fulfill His purpose) or is YHWH active (He pre-orders man's actions from eternity's past to fulfill His purpose)?

Interestingly, my question to you was something that is supposed to be an answer "hidden in plain sight" or was to be "understood" without saying. Let me be more plain. With respect, I am not back-tracking on anything. I am trying to use this question as a way of answering you by giving you a picture in your mind of the flow of events, based on absolute Sovereignty.

Yes, I do believe, based on God's Word, revealed by His Spirit, that He preordained (not just knew of) Man's actions to accomplish His will. I will, most likely, be accused of calling God unjust, correct? I am not. I am simply stating that God knows all things before they happen because He wrote them in His book from before the foundation of the world (Psalm 139 and Revelation speak of this). The book of Revelation is written in Past Tense, it's as good as "done" in God's book. How did He foreknow future events unless these events were as good as DONE in His book? You can only allow what has been preordained. God KNOWS that the events of Revelation will take place, but His foreknowledge of these events is based on the fact that He ordained and wrote them.

What DIRECT actions can we see from the hand of God in man's actions that carry out His purpose? Let's use scripture to find out.

----God hardened Pharoah's heart so that His glory could be seen before Israel.
-----in Isaiah 63:17, Isaiah asks God WHY God caused him to err from His ways and cause him to wander from His ways (obviously showing Isaiah's understanding in God's direct dealing with his OWN ways)

Proverbs 21:1...."The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord. he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases." (this seems like a direct action on men's hearts to me).

 

[Arcoe]

Hello Arco,

With all respect, I did NOT choose Calvinism or to agree with the Lord's Sovereignty. If I was left to myself, I would never have chosen Calvinism or freely decided anything for the Lord.

I give all that I know, understand and have done to the Lord's working and willing IN me. 0% SHULA and 100% GOD.

With all respect to you also Shula, but please tell me how you do the job God has given you, if it is 0% Shula.

Also, how do you believe Calvinism now, if you didn't choose to believe it?

 

[Skala]

I'd be interested to read volumes on this.

I can't write you a volume but I can give some Biblical examples

Josephs brothers willingly sold him into slavery (they made a choice) yet "behind the scenes" as it were, it was God's plan all along to "send Joseph to Egypt to save many lives". In fact Joseph's testimony to his brothers is "You did not send me here, but God did". So the brother's choice to send Joseph to Egypt was God's plan all along.

Again we have those that murdered Christ. The "wicked men" as the apostles described them in acts. In acts 4:27-28 we are told that what they did against Christ was simply "God's predestined plan". They willingly chose to murder Christ yet it was God's plan the whole time anyways for Christ to die as a sacrifice for sins.

In Isaiah chapter 10 we are told that God decided to use Assyria as a tool in his hand to punish Israel. From Assyria's perspective, they didn't know they were being used by God. In fact we are told that Assyria was prideful for thinking they had defeated their enemy with their own strength. God punishes them for this. So if you think about it, you could say God punished them for not believing in "compatiblistic free will" and holding to Libertarian Free will. God punished them for thinking they did it on their own with their own choice, strength, and faculties. But the reality is, their choice to attack, and their victory, was all God's predetermined plan.

In 1 Samual 2:25 we are told that Eli's sons were unwilling to repent of their ways. However, we are told that the reason they did not repent is because it was the Lords' will that they be put to death. So Eli's sons made a willing to choice to rebel and remain unrepentant, but the whole thing was God's plan because it was God's desire to punish them. So we see that our sovereign God is even sovereign over unrepentance. Perhaps this is why the NT teaches many times that repentance is a gift from God (The Lord has granted repentance to the Gentiles..etc)

1Sa 2:25 If someone sins against a man, God will mediate for him, but if someone sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?" But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for it was the will of the LORD to put them to death.

 

[Shulamite]

With all respect to you also Shula, but please tell me how you do the job God has given you, if it is 0% Shula.

Also, how do you believe Calvinism now, if you didn't choose to believe it?

*as a side note* I appreciate your willingness to discuss all of this with me in respect**

How do I answer? All I can say is, "I was once blind and now I see" and it wasn't ME who opened my own eyes to see this. I have been taught by God's word that it is "Him that works and wills IN me to accomplish His good pleasure". I don't see MY name in that verse. I didn't choose to believe in Calvinism anymore than I chose Christ. He chose me and He chose to reveal His Sovereignty to me. I just don't know how else to answer I KNOW it had nothing to do with me and everything to do with His ordained work IN me.

 

[ananda]

Yes, I do believe, based on God's Word, revealed by His Spirit, that He preordained (not just knew of) Man's actions to accomplish His will. I will, most likely, be accused of calling God unjust, correct? I am not. I am simply stating that God knows all things before they happen because He wrote them in His book from before the foundation of the world (Psalm 139 and Revelation speak of this). The book of Revelation is written in Past Tense, it's as good as "done" in God's book. How did He foreknow future events unless these events were as good as DONE in His book? You can only allow what has been preordained. God KNOWS that the events of Revelation will take place, but His foreknowledge of these events is based on the fact that He ordained and wrote them.

I believe you are mixing up "preordain" with "foreknowledge".

Yes, YHWH knows all actions from the beginning to the end. This is foreknowledge.

Has YHWH Himself ordered all actions from the beginning to the end? This is preordination.

As an Arminian, I completely agree that YHWH has total foreknowledge. However, I disagree that YHWH preordained everything. I believe He has given mankind free will to work for or against Him, to His ultimate glory. He knows how each man or woman will choose, but He did not preordain those actions.

What DIRECT actions can we see from the hand of God in man's actions that carry out His purpose? Let's use scripture to find out. ----God hardened Pharoah's heart so that His glory could be seen before Israel. in Isaiah 63:17, Isaiah asks God WHY God caused him to err from His ways and cause him to wander from His ways (obviously showing Isaiah's understanding in God's direct dealing with his OWN ways) Proverbs 21:1...."The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord. he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases." (this seems like a direct action on men's hearts to me).

Yes, YHWH hardened Pharaoh's heart, but He did not make Pharaoh choose any particular course of action. Isa 63:7 states that Isaiah is believing that YHWH is leading them astray. It does not state that YHWH is indeed leading them astray, nor does it obligate Isaiah to follow this stray path. Also, even if YHWH was indeed leading them astray, there is a purpose and reason - He tests our love for Him and His Torah (cf Deu 13:1-5). Finally, Prov 21:1 also states that YHWH can move one's heart; what it doesn't say is that He dictates a course of action.

Yes, YHWH can direct one's heart. It's up to our individual spirit to choose or reject the counsel of our hearts, however. For example, my heart can be filled with fear about riding a rollercoaster, but my spirit can overrule and ignore my heart and choose to continue on the ride.