Undermining prayer?

[JAS4Yeshua]

As I've said before, who you choose to have in your own prayer circle is your choice. The point has always been this, there is no Scripture support for the belief that another's prayer can undermine your own prayer. It might be ineffectual, but it definately won't hurt yours.

And James referred to a single person being double minded. It has nothing to do with two or more praying about an issue. That isn't appropriate context.

 

[franky67]

Mark 6 is talking about the fact that they didn't believe Jesus to be the Messiah. This wasn't about people of differing levels of faith. There is no Scriptural support for two people of differing levels of faith being able to undermine each other's prayer, or make them ineffective.

And No they didn't believe He was the Messiah, nor did they believe Jesus the carpenter's son could do miracles, however you look at it, they doubted, that is why Jesus was limited by their unbelief.

Think of it, God himself was limited by unbelief, are we not surely limited in the success of our prayers by doubt?

 

[Christina M]

No There is not a scripture for every single circumstance we encounter in this life, but regardless of faith levels, if I wanted prayer for healing, I would not ask a person to pray for me who I knew was taught that Healing is sometimes not the will of God.

James said it best, calling it double mindedness.

This is exactly what I have been saying, Franky, and have been mocked and trashed for it, in two threads now. Glad to know there are those who take the Word seriously! Love ya, brother!

 

[franky67]

As I've said before, who you choose to have in your own prayer circle is your choice. The point has always been this, there is no Scripture support for the belief that another's prayer can undermine your own prayer. It might be ineffectual, but it definately won't hurt yours.

And James referred to a single person being double minded. It has nothing to do with two or more praying about an issue. That isn't appropriate context.

I believe it is, whether one in a prayer circle actually prayes or not, makes no difference, if that person harbors unbelief, it hinders , quenches, the Holy Spirit.

In the case of James, the one who is double minded is the one who is in doubt, unbelief and double mindedness is the same thing.

The prayer offered in faith WILL save the sick.

Doubt says, the prayer of faith MIGHT save the sick.

 

[jeolmstead]

John, however we take this particular passage, the fact that unbelief hinders the work of God is still a fact, which is the truth of Mark 6:5,6 where Jesus could no miracle in Nazareth because of their unbelief.

“God would heal you if you had more faith”

Proof text for this comes from the instances where Jesus rebuked his followers for their lack of faith or when he commends someone for their great faith.

This is problematic however in that in each case Jesus’ response was to heal or deliver. His response for those with little faith and those with great faith was the same.

“Jesus could not do many things in His home town because of their unbelief”

This is presented as proof text that unbelief is so powerful that even Jesus could not overcome it.

I do not believe that scripture makes that case at all. All it really means is they didn’t believe in Him so they didn’t ask of Him They didn’t even consider Him to be more than the carpenter’s son. This is not any different then people now who don’t believe and don’t ask today.

Jesus by the way did do some miracles in His home town:

4 Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor." 5He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6And he was amazed at their lack of faith.

(He did this even though He was amaxed at their lack of faith)

John O.

 

[Christina M]

“God would heal you if you had more faith”

Proof text for this comes from the instances where Jesus rebuked his followers for their lack of faith or when he commends someone for their great faith.

This is problematic however in that in each case Jesus’ response was to heal or deliver. His response for those with little faith and those with great faith was the same.

“Jesus could not do many things in His home town because of their unbelief”

This is presented as proof text that unbelief is so powerful that even Jesus could not overcome it.

I do not believe that scripture makes that case at all. All it really means is they didn’t believe in Him so they didn’t ask of Him They didn’t even consider Him to be more than the carpenter’s son. This is not any different then people now who don’t believe and don’t ask today.

Jesus by the way did do some miracles in His home town:

4 Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor." 5He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6And he was amazed at their lack of faith.

(He did this even though He was amaxed at their lack of faith)

John O.

Be it done unto you, according to your faith.


You will have what you believe for.... that's why I believe for the whole kit and kaboodle!

 

[JAS4Yeshua]

Now there are limits on God? That is reading more into that Scripture than what is being said. The simple fact is, those people didn't believe in who Jesus was. It has nothing to do with believers. Unless you are saying that people of differing opinions aren't believers. Further, none of these "unbelievers" were even praying, so it doesn't even fit in with the model you are trying to promote.

Christina, I haven't seen anyone mocking or trashing anyone in this thread. As has been stated numerous times, you can use whatever criteria you choose for your inner prayer circle. But to say that another's prayer will undermine your own is like the Pharisee who stood in the temple saying "Thank God I'm not like the other man." You are basically saying that other Christian's aren't good enough. Whether you mean it that way or not, this is a false idea that is a deadly poison in the Body of Christ.

I take the Word very seriously. I'm sure you and Franky do as well. I'm sure many others, on both sides of this discussion, do also. But please, don't belittle others by saying or inferring that you are on some greater spiritual level than others, and that our prayers will undermine yours, simply because you and I have a difference of opinion.

I will say again: Use whatever criteria you want for your prayer circle. Those who you choose to have pray for you. Just realize, though, that no one else can undermine your prayer, so don't go around with that attitude. If you don't want someone to pray for you, don't tell them about your prayer requests. It is as simple as that. And if they do pray, you have nothing to worry about, because they cannot undermine your prayers. Nothing in Scripture supports that theory.

 

[franky67]

“Jesus could not do many things in His home town because of their unbelief”

I believe this verse says exactly what it means, nothing was said about them asking.

They were just onlookers with unbelief, and as a result, Jesus could not do.....

Yes by our unbelief, we limit God.

Matt. 9:29 "..........according to your faith, be it done unto you."

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Exactly. If I say "God's will be done" and you believe "it is always God's will to heal" then, aren't we just asking for the same thing?

It can.

If one believes that it is always God's will to heal then the prayer "thy will be done" willl mean "your will to heal all be done."

But if you doubt it is the will of God to heal all, then your prayer "thy will be done" will mean "whatever your will is, whether it be sickness or health, let it be done." The difference it that the second prayer does not know the will of God and so the person praying does not believe it will come to pass (Jersus said to believe that you have received what you pray for)
The one praying will receive what they believe... nothing.

 

[JAS4Yeshua]

Even if I did have unbelief (which I don't), if I were to pray for you, even with unbelief, it won't affect your prayers in a negative way. It will either add to the prayers you already have, or have no impact whatsoever. But thinking that it could somehow harm or undermine your prayer is what is not Scriptural, and hasn't been shown to be Scriptural at any point.

 

[JAS4Yeshua]

It can.

If one believes that it is always God's will to heal then the prayer "thy will be done" willl mean "your will to heal all be done."

But if you doubt it is the will of God to heal all, then your prayer "thy will be done" will mean "whatever your will is, whether it be sickness or health, let it be done." The difference it that the second prayer does not know the will of God and so the person praying does not believe it will come to pass (Jersus said to believe that you have received what you pray for)
The one praying will receive what they believe... nothing.

Even if that were true, it wouldn't undermine another's prayer. If you pray for healing, and I pray for God's Will to be done, how could that even remotely undermine your prayer. At the least, it won't do anything, at the most, it will help your prayer. It won't undermine it or somehow "cancel out" your prayer. That simply is not supportable by Scripture.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If the doubt and unbelief of people prevented Jesus from minstering... then what is their doubt and unbelief going to do to our efforts?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Even if that were true, it wouldn't undermine another's prayer. If you pray for healing, and I pray for God's Will to be done, how could that even remotely undermine your prayer. At the least, it won't do anything, at the most, it will help your prayer. It won't undermine it or somehow "cancel out" your prayer. That simply is not supportable by Scripture.

Sorry.... I was responding to someone elses post.
Peace

 

[JAS4Yeshua]

If the doubt and unbelief of people prevented Jesus from minstering... then what is their doubt and unbelief going to do to our efforts?

That verse was about people in his home region, who couldn't see Him as anything more than a carpenter's son. They didn't believe Him to the the Son of God. How does that even remotely compare to those who have differing interpretations on healing? There is no comparison, because that isn't the purpose of that passage of Scripture.

 

[Tamara224]

Even if that were true, it wouldn't undermine another's prayer. If you pray for healing, and I pray for God's Will to be done, how could that even remotely undermine your prayer. At the least, it won't do anything, at the most, it will help your prayer. It won't undermine it or somehow "cancel out" your prayer. That simply is not supportable by Scripture.

God's will does not depend on whether we believe or know that it is His will.

So, if it is God's will to always heal. Then asking for his will to be done = asking for healing.

Whether I believe or know that it is always God's will to heal doesn't change God's will. It would still be His will, even if I am ignorant of that.

Likewise, if it's not always His will to heal, my believing that it is, won't change the fact that it's not.

God's will is an objective reality. Not a subjective belief.

It's like saying: "I believe that stoplight is always green." Well, either the stoplight is always green or it's not always green. And even though I may blow through it every day without looking to see if it is green or red or yellow...that doesn't make it always green. In fact, if it is red some of the time and I blow through it when a cop is around, he's not going to care whether we believe the stoplight is always green. The stoplight exists independent of us - it's either green, red or yellow even when we're 100 miles away from it. It is an objective fact.

So is God's will. It is not dependent on what we think it is. It is what it is. We may be wrong about it. But our being wrong doesn't change it.

God is true, even though everyone else may be a liar.

 

[jeolmstead]

No There is not a scripture for every single circumstance we encounter in this life, but regardless of faith levels, if I wanted prayer for healing, I would not ask a person to pray for me who I knew was taught that Healing is sometimes not the will of God.

James said it best, calling it double mindedness.

What does one man’s doubt have to do with the faith of another man?

If such a man is indeed full of doubt, and is “double minded” (James 1:8), how does his doubt cancel out your faith? Yes, he can expect to receive nothing. The context here is, “if any man lack wisdom, let him ask.” He is asking for and receiving (or not) for himself. It is not about nullifying someone else’s prayer.

Is the doubt more powerful then faith?

Why would God hold you accountable for his lack of faith?

I agree with Jason. I see no scriptural support for the idea that one should not allow a believer with a different doctrinal viewpoint to pray for them.

John O.

 

[Tamara224]

It can.

If one believes that it is always God's will to heal then the prayer "thy will be done" willl mean "your will to heal all be done."

But if you doubt it is the will of God to heal all, then your prayer "thy will be done" will mean "whatever your will is, whether it be sickness or health, let it be done." The difference it that the second prayer does not know the will of God and so the person praying does not believe it will come to pass (Jersus said to believe that you have received what you pray for)
The one praying will receive what they believe... nothing.

Not so. Because I believe that God's will will be done and I ask for it with full confidence that He will do His will. There's no double mindedness in that. I ask for God's will with 100% assurance that He'll do it.

 

[peacechild4]

It was brought up for the truth of it. Nothing against Word of Faith, but an honest point of contention between two opposing points of view. It had nothing to do with your icon, but what you stated you believe in your posts. There are verses throughout the Bible that are contentions between two differing view points, whether it deals with pentecostals and non-pentecostals about speaking in tongues as evidence, or verses that pertain to baptism that Baptists and non-Baptists divide over. The list goes on.

What I believe is based on what God says, as my posts are clear indications of. Yes, I have bias, as you do. Anyone who thinks they are without bias is fooling themselves. Ultimately, though, all my statements are grounded on the Rock. If I point out where a point of contention is between two groups of people, it is to show you where we differ in interpretation. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sorry but it had everything to do with my icon.. because you can clearly see I am Word of Faith and you mentioned it.. Instead of just talking about what I said.. and what you believe the scriptures to mean..

 

[franky67]

Even if I did have unbelief (which I don't), if I were to pray for you, even with unbelief, it won't affect your prayers in a negative way. It will either add to the prayers you already have, or have no impact whatsoever. But thinking that it could somehow harm or undermine your prayer is what is not Scriptural, and hasn't been shown to be Scriptural at any point.

In James 5:14,15, when the elders anoint with oil and pray for the sick one, it says the prayer of faith (singular) a single prayer prayed by more than one elder, and the prayer, offered in faith will restore the one who is sick.

This prayer must have the faith of all the elders combined, to be effective.

If it doesn't, there is hinderence present.

1 Peter 3:7 indicates our attitudes can hinder prayers, and to doubt, is an attitude.

 

[JAS4Yeshua]

Sorry but it had everything to do with my icon.. because you can clearly see I am Word of Faith and you mentioned it.. Instead of just talking about what I said.. and what you believe the scriptures to mean..

I'm sorry you think I'm lying to you. I can honestly tell you if you had posted that and not had the Word of Faith icon, my answer would still have been the same. It wasn't an attack against you or the Word of Faith. It was simply a discussion of what is a difference in points of view.