Undermining prayer?

[NorrinRadd]

What do you do with these scriptures?

Matthew 18:19
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Amos 3:3
Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
...,

What do I do? I tell you they are yanked out of context and completely misapplied -- just the way I was taught to do things when I was WoF 20 years ago.

The verses from Matthew, IF they are about prayer at all, apply only in the context of applying church discipline.

Amos 3:3 is about cause and effect, like all its surrounding verses. And it's interesting that the culmination is 3:6, where the LORD takes credit for the occasions when "calamity" strikes.

 

[peacechild4]

This verse is often an area of contention between Word of Faith and those who don't agree with the Word of Faith teachings.

Why why why are you bringing up the Word of Faith thing??? I never spoke about what you believe or what you stand for.. but yet you bring this up about me because of my icon???

This immediately tell me you are not considering your answers because of what you have learnt through God or the Word of God.. rather looking at what I said based on what you see that a Word of Faith follower thinks???

What you say is therefore bias and based one what you think rather then what God says..

 

[Strong in Him]

What do I do? I tell you they are yanked out of context and completely misapplied -- just the way I was taught to do things when I was WoF 20 years ago.

The verses from Matthew, IF they are about prayer at all, apply only in the context of applying church discipline.

Amos 3:3 is about cause and effect, like all its surrounding verses. And it's interesting that the culmination is 3:6, where the LORD takes credit for the occasions when "calamity" strikes.

I agree. We can misapply just about anything if we take it out of context.
For example, someone might agree with me that PHIA is not biblical, or that tele-evangelists shouldn't be allowed to talk about planting seeds in the form of financial gifts. When I pray on Sundays for the peace of the world, the entire congregation agrees and says "Amen", and Satanists, spiritualists, atheists etc agree that there is no God, and in some cases are actively teaching that "fact".
Some people in the C of E agree that gay priests should be allowed in the church - and pray to the God who they say made them that way; others agree that they shouldn't and may pray that the Bishops will not allow it. Many used to agree that women shouldn't be ordained - some still do.

All these groups of people may agree together in prayer and believe that God has spoken to them about their particular issue. If the above verse is to be taken literally, God would have to do it all - allow gay priests, and not; allow women clergy, and not.

 

[youthwalk]

I'm subscribing.

My opinion is that someone else's prayer can undermine your own is crap.

I'm deeply disgusted with the attitudes of some I have seen in posts especially since yesterday. I makes me realise why I need "a break" from being around Christians. Where we are supposed to be edifying, we pull each other down. I am very unsettled and I understand the hostility felt by those told "do not pray for me" I remember the first time and only time some one said that to me, he was an atheist, and I was hurt. To pray for someone is to show you love them, to tell God you love them and you want His will to done. To throw that back in someone's face is disgusting. And imagine that was an atheist and it still hurt. I imagine that if someone you consider a brother or sister in Christ tells you that it'll hurt so much more.

I can't stand this. It is discouraging, destructive. God is STILL good and He's still God. That's what matters. We all have trials and if someone prays for God's will to be done in my life how on EARTH or in heaven can I interpret that to be a bad thing, a contrary thing. WHAT?

This is the level we have reached. We can't pray for each other?!. This whole idea brings me so much pain. I don't know or understand why but it hurts to hear these things. My word!!! What is this?

I can see why hostility will develop towards certain people especially of the Word of Faith "belief" (as if "ordinary" Christians are so faithless in their "belief") It's things like this. I see only WoFers saying that they would refuse someone's prayer.

If someone prayed for God to separate my boyfriend and I, I would not want to HEAR that prayer but God can hear it. I don't have to censor what He hears on my behalf. He's God, His will and plan for me will come to pass no matter what.

geez...it bugs me so much.

I need to get away from this place. It's so negative.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I...

I need to get away from this place. It's so negative.

Interjection / observation: I've seen that sentiment -- repeatedly -- on every Christian or faith-oriented (religion-oriented) board I've ever been part of.

 

[youthwalk]

Interjection / observation: I've seen that sentiment -- repeatedly -- on every Christian or faith-oriented (religion-oriented) board I've ever been part of.

What does this say for us?

Why does religion destroy unity? Why do we allow it to?

 

[BenAdam]

What does this say for us?

Why does religion destroy unity? Why do we allow it to?

It is a sad commentary actually. Why don't you come over to the NonWoF subforum, nice people in there. (Not saying there are not nice people here too).

 

[churchlady]

My opinion is that someone else's prayer can undermine your own is crap.

I can see why hostility will develop towards certain people especially of the Word of Faith "belief" (as if "ordinary" Christians are so faithless in their "belief") It's things like this. I see only WoFers saying that they would refuse someone's prayer.

Well actually, if you'd been around a short time ago, you would have seen the non-Wof crowd raise a ruckas over the fact that we were offended that Joni Earickson Tada refused the prayer of those who wanted to ask God to heal her.

You would have thought people wanted to pray leporisy on her or something. But the crowd here was appalled at our offense.

 

[BenAdam]

Well actually, if you'd been around a short time ago, you would have seen the non-Wof crowd raise a ruckas over the fact that we were offended that Joni Earickson Tada refused the prayer of those who wanted to ask God to heal her.

You would have thought people wanted to pray leporisy on her or something. But the crowd here was appalled at our offense.

There is a distinct difference. Someone is saying that they don't want "unbelievers" praying for them for healing that the requestor desired. Joni didn't want prayers stopping something she feels is God's will.

 

[Tamara224]

Well actually, if you'd been around a short time ago, you would have seen the non-Wof crowd raise a ruckas over the fact that we were offended that Joni Earickson Tada refused the prayer of those who wanted to ask God to heal her.

You would have thought people wanted to pray leporisy on her or something. But the crowd here was appalled at our offense.

No. Joni didn't refuse prayer, she asked them to pray for something else instead. And we non-WoFers were not "appalled" at your offense. We were annoyed that you were judging Joni for it. But none of us ever insisted that people not pray for Joni's healing. We never suggested prayer might undermine prayer.

 

[youthwalk]

Well actually, if you'd been around a short time ago, you would have seen the non-Wof crowd raise a ruckas over the fact that we were offended that Joni Earickson Tada refused the prayer of those who wanted to ask God to heal her.

You would have thought people wanted to pray leporisy on her or something. But the crowd here was appalled at our offense.

Hi, I've been a regular, regular poster on this board for almost 2 years. I must have missed that saga. I tend to stay out of the healing threads but I went into that last thread about prayer requests and I just felt so horrible.

How is it now though that it is alright to say 'don't pray for me if you believe such and such as opposed to such and such even though you're a born again Christian..."?

If Joni Tada didn't want to be healed or didn't not believe that that was God's plan for her she can say that but, I could be wrong in saying that, I doubt she said "don't pray for me if you are not of my faith level, my exact belief or if you don't share my image of God. Because if you do, God may hear you and not me and He'll answer your contrary prayer..."

I don't get it really.


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[youthwalk]

There is a distinct difference. Someone is saying that they don't want "unbelievers" praying for them for healing that the requestor desired. Joni didn't want prayers stopping something she feels is God's will.

No. Joni didn't refuse prayer, she asked them to pray for something else instead. And we non-WoFers were not "appalled" at your offense. We were annoyed that you were judging Joni for it. But none of us ever insisted that people not pray for Joni's healing. We never suggested prayer might undermine prayer.

Ok...I spent too much time typing...you guys beat me to it!

 

[JAS4Yeshua]

Why why why are you bringing up the Word of Faith thing??? I never spoke about what you believe or what you stand for.. but yet you bring this up about me because of my icon???

This immediately tell me you are not considering your answers because of what you have learnt through God or the Word of God.. rather looking at what I said based on what you see that a Word of Faith follower thinks???

What you say is therefore bias and based one what you think rather then what God says..

It was brought up for the truth of it. Nothing against Word of Faith, but an honest point of contention between two opposing points of view. It had nothing to do with your icon, but what you stated you believe in your posts. There are verses throughout the Bible that are contentions between two differing view points, whether it deals with pentecostals and non-pentecostals about speaking in tongues as evidence, or verses that pertain to baptism that Baptists and non-Baptists divide over. The list goes on.

What I believe is based on what God says, as my posts are clear indications of. Yes, I have bias, as you do. Anyone who thinks they are without bias is fooling themselves. Ultimately, though, all my statements are grounded on the Rock. If I point out where a point of contention is between two groups of people, it is to show you where we differ in interpretation. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[JAS4Yeshua]

What does this say for us?

Why does religion destroy unity? Why do we allow it to?

Because we're all humans, and we all have pride. For many of us, that pride means we don't listen to others who oppose our points of view. This causes us to divide, which is something Satan loves, because that way he can divide and conquer. How many souls are lost as a result? Only God knows. How many lives are destroyed by these divides? That is one reason I'm so passionate when it comes to unity in the Body of Christ. We don't have to agree on everything, but we do need to be united in Christ's love, so that we can reach out to a lost and dying world.

 

[Br0kenSunshyne]

I might be disqualified from talkin about this since I"m only 4 months old in Jesus, but ya know, my prayers (when they happen) are very simple. I don't use all these big fancy words to "beseech the throne of all grace and majesty". I just talk to JEsus like I do you guys. But I know that I mean my prayers from the bottom of my heart. LIke down to my gut type deep. And even though I don't say a lot of words or use some weird version of king james english or something, I know that JEsus hears me and likes my prayers. And he thinks they are precious. So if people think they are too good for my prayers, then its their losss.

 

[BenAdam]

I might be disqualified from talkin about this since I"m only 4 months old in Jesus, but ya know, my prayers (when they happen) are very simple. I don't use all these big fancy words to "beseech the throne of all grace and majesty". I just talk to JEsus like I do you guys. But I know that I mean my prayers from the bottom of my heart. LIke down to my gut type deep. And even though I don't say a lot of words or use some weird version of king james english or something, I know that JEsus hears me and likes my prayers. And he thinks they are precious. So if people think they are too good for my prayers, then its their losss.

I daresay that your prayers are probably more effective than many.

 

[JAS4Yeshua]

I might be disqualified from talkin about this since I"m only 4 months old in Jesus, but ya know, my prayers (when they happen) are very simple. I don't use all these big fancy words to "beseech the throne of all grace and majesty". I just talk to JEsus like I do you guys. But I know that I mean my prayers from the bottom of my heart. LIke down to my gut type deep. And even though I don't say a lot of words or use some weird version of king james english or something, I know that JEsus hears me and likes my prayers. And he thinks they are precious. So if people think they are too good for my prayers, then its their losss.

I daresay that your prayers are probably more effective than many.

I agree.

 

[franky67]

No where in this passage does it say that:

37He did not let anyone follow him except Peter, James and John the brother of James. 38When they came to the home of the synagogue ruler, Jesus saw a commotion, with people crying and wailing loudly. 39He went in and said to them, "Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep." 40But they laughed at him.
After he put them all out, he took the child's father and mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41He took her by the hand and said to her, "Talitha koum!" (which means, "Little girl, I say to you, get up!" ). 42Immediately the girl stood up and walked around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished. 43He gave strict orders not to let anyone know about this, and told them to give her something to eat.

It does say:

Jesus saw a commotion, with people crying and wailing loudly

(Kinda of hard to do anything in that environment, he had to clear the room)


he took the child's father and mother

(Apparently according to your theory that had more faith then the rest of the disciples, what about their unbelief?)


43 He gave strict orders not to let anyone know about this, and told them to give her something to eat.

(Apparently Jesus did not want this event talked about, One can easily make the argument that this is why he limited the access to it)

John O.

John, however we take this particular passage, the fact that unbelief hinders the work of God is still a fact, which is the truth of Mark 6:5,6 where Jesus could no miracle in Nazareth because of their unbelief.

 

[JAS4Yeshua]

Mark 6 is talking about the fact that they didn't believe Jesus to be the Messiah. This wasn't about people of differing levels of faith. There is no Scriptural support for two people of differing levels of faith being able to undermine each other's prayer, or make them ineffective.

 

[franky67]

Mark 6 is talking about the fact that they didn't believe Jesus to be the Messiah. This wasn't about people of differing levels of faith. There is no Scriptural support for two people of differing levels of faith being able to undermine each other's prayer, or make them ineffective.

No There is not a scripture for every single circumstance we encounter in this life, but regardless of faith levels, if I wanted prayer for healing, I would not ask a person to pray for me who I knew was taught that Healing is sometimes not the will of God.

James said it best, calling it double mindedness.