Underground church comming?

[Beautiful Blessings]

Hey there! I have some mixed views on this topic. First, I'm bisexual; so I supposed it gives me a different view of things. However, I do believe in the separation of Church and State. Marriage laws, in the United State, are up to each State individually. It will take a while before they could manage to change that. If the country would ever take marriage into its own hands . . . I'm sure it would create an issue like the Health Care one right now.

I'm sure the only way it would ever pass (to legalize same-sex marriage) would be if there was something written in to it that said if one does not feel comfortable marrying a same-sex couple, they don't have to. Even I, being bisexual, would vote to have the Church keep their right to turn down a couple. Chances are . . . there is someone else out there to marry that couple. I'm a Reverend and can marry people and would be happy to marry a same-sex couple. All the couple has to do is look for someone else. I know I would if I were in their shoes.

I just don't see this happening any time soon. It's up to each state to make marriage laws. I don't think the Government, on a National level, will get involved any time soon. So I don't think you have much to worry about. There are many other things that I'm more worried about at the moment when it comes to our Government.

 

[heron]

The Big one is having a receipt for tax deductions.

I agree. If people can't deduct their tithes, many will cut back on giving. It seems so shallow, but I think that if the government stops offering tax benefits to religious organizations, some people will become flustered and pull away.

Although so far, US speeches have promoted non-profits.

There are many other things that I'm more worried about at the moment when it comes to our Government.

Yeah... and that.

Religion Initiative Home - Council on Foreign Relations

This might be a good site to keep an eye on, for upcoming policies.

 

[Jsam]

If such is the case , it means that there is no work of the holy spirit.

 

[bugkiller]

I see churches running off any who will stand up for the truth. As soon as I have talked the Bbile with some Pastors I was not welcome. I have talked with others who are wondering what to do. They are appealing more and more to the seeker crowd and less and less to those who love God. Most of the ones left are the silent type who will do nothing and are in a rut so deep that you nearly need field glasses to find them.

There have been a few comments about the government interferring in church affairs. They alreaday regulate things such as marriage - a religious rite. I could list other religious rites that the state demands a license to preform.

bugkiller

 

[heron]

There is talk now of people being held accountable for financing terror.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1254685&srvc=rss

Through indirect links, this could eventually put a normal Christian at risk, for donating to an organization that was accused of a crime.

There has always been a protective zone, where donors and even voting members of a church were not legally responsible for its decisions. (To a reasonable point of course.)

Remember the recent arrests of the militant Christian group. What if suddenly that were to apply to anyone connected with a Tea Party movement protest. One event gets out of hand, even with a small scuffle, and it could be formally labeled a dangerous organization.

Or the Vatican is accused of a horrible offense, beyond the existing lawsuits.

Then anyone who is a member of a connected church, gives to a ministry, signed a petition, bought tickets... could be deemed to have just cause for potential criminal activity.

I know I am stretching this beyond real limits, so don't go telling anyone this is about to happen. But the possibilities are in place.

 

[Redneck12]

I expect there would have to be reasonable evidence you had some knowledge of where your donation was going, at least at present.

The government has been trying to cut off church funding for years, mostly by going after medicaid recipients. They wanted any donations to churches or other charitable organizations either returned or counted against receiving medicaid. So far this has failed to pass, but with increasing shortfalls the pressure will be on again.

If you are concerned, you might be better to forgo any tax exemption and just drop cash in the plate, keeping no records.

 

[heron]

I expect there would have to be reasonable evidence you had some knowledge of where your donation was going, at least at present.

Attendance and votes at annual meetings.

you might be better to forgo any tax exemption and just drop cash in the plate, keeping no records.

Started to do that last year, sometimes. Not for that reason.

Medicaid -- can you explain that further?

 

[bugkiller]

I expect there would have to be reasonable evidence you had some knowledge of where your donation was going, at least at present.

The government has been trying to cut off church funding for years, mostly by going after medicaid recipients. They wanted any donations to churches or other charitable organizations either returned or counted against receiving medicaid. So far this has failed to pass, but with increasing shortfalls the pressure will be on again.

If you are concerned, you might be better to forgo any tax exemption and just drop cash in the plate, keeping no records.

Exactly, if you are giving because you can get a better tax deal, you should look at your heart. You would be financially ahead to not give that money to any charity. Do the math.

bugkiller

 

[heron]

Some news updates... clips of Pelosi and Kerry statements. EPA, immigration relating to churches. Social justice, economic justice.

Glenn Beck - Current Events & Politics - Glenn Beck: Merging the EPA With Churches?

 

[bugkiller]

Some news updates... clips of Pelosi and Kerry statements. EPA, immigration relating to churches. Social justice, economic justice.

Glenn Beck - Current Events & Politics - Glenn Beck: Merging the EPA With Churches?

Interesting site. I am like so many others - streched pretty thin. Thanks for the info. I live in the country and could live even with out electricity or gasoline if I had to. You are forever reliant on ultities in the city.

bugkiller

 

[DesertJoe]

Ok, I don't want to make this a political thread. I just want to see how this scenerio plays out.

1 New administration and congress legalized gay marriage,
2 gay couple comes to a church to get married,
3 preacher says "can't unless your a member" (not sure thats a viable reason, some of you out there might beable to correct me on that one)
4 gay couple applies for membership at the church (I know how most of us feel about "applying for membership", just play along with me for now)
5. church will not admit couple because of their homosexual practices
6 couple sues church and wins.

Now if this happens, what becomes of the church? Mainly, what becomes of the Church? I believe His Church will go underground. I don't think I could attend somewhere where God's word cannot be preached or that we allow blatent disregard for It.

So this is what I'm thinking. We are going to have a state ran church, one that will only preach the state's accepted Word.
And we are going to have Christ's Church, who for fear of being sued will be underground, in our homes.

I believe God is in control of all things. I believe this is a purification process. But that is mho.
What are yours?
J.

What a great thing this would be.There may not be in The United States a Divine outpouring of the glory of God (what some would call revival) until the "church" loses all the structure that keeps it tied down.We as the body of Christ are now so involved in trying to reach the lost using the worlds methods that it is almost like fighting a battle with our arms tied behind our backs.When we bow the knee & ask God to do what He wants to do through us,then we will behold His glory in the salvation of (possibly,for all things are possible for our God) millions.Until that time we will remain that "church" that says,"‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing" and God will continue to say "you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked".Should we fear what may happen with governmental persecution?I think we should pray for it.We should ask God to take us away from our comfy lives & bring us out into the sunshine of His glory.God bless you

 

[heron]

Interesting site. I am like so many others - stretched pretty thin.

Well, he is very controversial right now, to the point that people are trying to destroy him. He has a strong bias, but brings up a lot of things that need to be said.

This week's church-n-state hub-bub:

House speaker Nancy Pelosi turns to Jesus for political salvation

 

[John 10:10]

What a great thing this would be.There may not be in The United States a Divine outpouring of the glory of God (what some would call revival) until the "church" loses all the structure that keeps it tied down.We as the body of Christ are now so involved in trying to reach the lost using the worlds methods that it is almost like fighting a battle with our arms tied behind our backs.When we bow the knee & ask God to do what He wants to do through us,then we will behold His glory in the salvation of (possibly,for all things are possible for our God) millions.Until that time we will remain that "church" that says,"‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing" and God will continue to say "you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked".Should we fear what may happen with governmental persecution?I think we should pray for it.We should ask God to take us away from our comfy lives & bring us out into the sunshine of His glory.God bless you

Brother Yun says this about the Church in China. China spewed him out of China in 1997 in a very miraculous way (read "the Heavenly Man" for his story). In his new book "Living Water," brother Yun says this:

"Just a few decades ago there were very Christians in China, and many missionaries found it difficult to reach anyone with the gospel. But the heavenly Father had other ideas, for He wanted His Son to receive the glory of a redeemed bride in China. What started as a spark grew to a small flame, and the Holy Spirit fed the flames with generous doses of flamable oil until the revival became a mighty all-consuming fire! Around 100 million people have given their lives to Jesus and have been overwhelmed by His love and goodness................. There is great power when we suffer for the gospel. Countless believers in China have been brutally tortured, imprisoned and even killed for the gospelm but the church has continued to advance."

The Church in China is growing today by leaps and bounds, not by the government controlled "Three Self Church," but by thousands and thousands of "house churches."

Get ready for persecution here in America, and get ready for growth thru house churches.

Blessings

 

[bugkiller]

This is a legal not political question

Most Churches incorporate to become tax exempt its called 501c3

Being a corp. has benefits legal status and such.

The Big one is having a receipt for tax deductions.

But they have to follow rules set by the government.

The deal is in the US Churches cannot be taxed any way.

They have no legal status –no court action possible – no recourse cant sue or be sued.

It is hard to get bank accounts, own land among other things (these things can be done or overcome)

Also there are no government rules to follow.

These Churches are called Unregistered or Free

This is more common in House and small churches although some larger established Churches are becoming Free Churches.

I pastor a Free Church in TN. We meet in our home.

Harold

So where can one find out more about free churches and thei structure?

bugkiller

 

[Redneck12]

I believe Churches incorporate because accountants tell them they have to to get tax exemptions, own property, etc., but apparently this isn't true because I believe in Virginia it is illegal for churches to incorporate and they seem to do fine.

 

[jeshy03]

I believe the time will come that God's people will be persecuted for the sake of Jesus name . . and I think we should focus on discipleship . . The time is near so don't be shocked of what is happening in our world . . Let's keep running for Jesus Christ Sake. .

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

For the most part, agreed. Although I don't think that USA will have a state-run church, I think that it may well eventually have state persecution of most churches. Or the Lion may come first

 

[rickpaul]

Has anyone read the book * Billy Graham an his Friends * ? It has really opened my eyes as to whats really goin on in the U.S.

 

[heron]

Thanks for the book recommendation. Was there anything of note that you want to bring up?

I just looked up Billy Graham and his Friends, and read an excerpt. It seemed to be written from a narrow religious perspective... the author was not fond of Catholics.

But I'm sure that with the high contacts Graham had with public officials, there were discussions and agreements that could have swayed religion for government's sake. Or other organizations that would profit. It would be interesting to hear if the author included information on collaborations.

The excerpt brought up how Graham invited questionable people to speak. At the time he did that, there were not many born-again Christians in the country. The US did not have TBN, CCM, Christian bookstore chains, Saturday morning kids' programming, and all the popularity of Christianity that exists now.

The country had Davy and Goliath, Bishop Sheen, and Billy Graham. (Okay, yes, there was more.) He could barely afford to be more choosy, other than inviting believer friends and ministers. I see the point of it seeming like bringing in idols and infidels; but at that time, people believed Peale had something to bring to Christianity.