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Under the law??

T

TanteBelle

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Don't you think his meaning is better represented by the description he composed about the tutor (παιδαγωγός) whose job was to lead the people to the Messiah?

ὥστε ὁ νόμος παιδαγωγὸς ἡμῶν γέγονεν εἰς Χριστόν, ἵνα ἐκ πίστεως δικαιωθῶμεν.
That the law became our tutor unto Christ, so that we might be justified from faith. (Gal 3:24)​

The law, according to Paul, was the tutor put into effect to take care of the children, to make sure that they would learn the lessons necessary and finally come into adulthood and reach the goal of their education: the Messiah. Notice what he then says about this tutor (read: the Torah) once they had reached that goal.

ἐλθούσης δὲ τῆς πίστεως οὐκέτι ὑπὸ παιδαγωγόν ἐσμεν.
But once faith has come, we are no longer under the tutor. (Gal 3:25)​

What, again, is the tutor in Paul's analogy? Who, in the analogy, put the tutor into effect? What was the purpose of the tutor? How is this spelled out in the the next chapter of Galatians?

Paul writes so very clearly that I find it hard to believe that people don't understand him. I wonder if it's a willful misunderstanding.

This "no longer under the tutor" is the same as "not under the law" — that is, the law (Torah) is no longer in charge of the life of those who believe in Jesus. Paul stated, again, that he had "died" to the law and was alive only to Christ (Gal 2:19-20).

Yes, I do, but many have interpreted that to mean that now that we've had the tutor, we no longer need the tutor because we have 'Christ'. Well, we need teachers in life but does that mean that we throw away the principles of the teacher? Not at all. Now that we are no longer 'babes in faith' we are the ones who are to uphold those principles even more so. Torah was the tutor to bring us to Messiah, yes, but that doesn't mean that now with Messiah, we have no need of Torah's principles; on the contrary, now that we know the full truth of what torah was leading to, we must uphold torah even more so. If Yeshua came to be the living example of torah .... what? Are we throwing away everything that Yeshua did? It's the difference between being a 'babe in the faith' and a 'teacher in the faith'; between a disciple and an apostle! Paul never at any time either preached or lived against torah.
 
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pat34lee

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Another reason Paul couldn't do away with Torah:

Yeshua is the word of YHWH (John 1). He is the living Torah. You cannot do away with Torah without doing away with Yeshua. Also YHWH does not change, so his word does not change. Israel followed the Torah before Yeshua came, they will follow it when he comes again, so why would we not follow it now?
 
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yonah_mishael

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Yes, I do, but many have interpreted that to mean that now that we've had the tutor, we no longer need the tutor because we have 'Christ'.

In fact, that's exactly what Paul said. To quote it again:
ἐλθούσης δὲ τῆς πίστεως οὐκέτι ὑπὸ παιδαγωγόν ἐσμεν.
But once faith has come, we are no longer under the tutor. (Gal 3:25)
He specifically said "we are no longer under the tutor." Why? He covers that in Galatians 4:1-5.
What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world. But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.
"Elemental spiritual forces of the world" is another way to say the forces operating in the Torah, under which Paul states that the Jewish people were subjected as slaves. The "guardians and trustees" refer also to the Torah and to the leadership of the Jewish religion - which was put into place to keep people from sin. Once faith comes, however, you are considered "mature" and no longer need to be kept like a slave - since you are now a "son" instead.

Well, we need teachers in life but does that mean that we throw away the principles of the teacher? Not at all. Now that we are no longer 'babes in faith' we are the ones who are to uphold those principles even more so. Torah was the tutor to bring us to Messiah, yes, but that doesn't mean that now with Messiah, we have no need of Torah's principles; on the contrary, now that we know the full truth of what torah was leading to, we must uphold torah even more so. If Yeshua came to be the living example of torah .... what? Are we throwing away everything that Yeshua did? It's the difference between being a 'babe in the faith' and a 'teacher in the faith'; between a disciple and an apostle! Paul never at any time either preached or lived against torah.

Your interpretation of the analogy might be fitting in the eyes of many, but it isn't how Paul interpreted it. Alternatively, the παιδαγωγός is only a leader of a παῖς ("child"), upon which the word is built (παῖς + ἄγω). They lead (ἄγω) a child (παῖς), not a mature heir of the kingdom. According to Paul, since Jesus, you are an heir and a son, no longer a child and no longer under the supervision of the tutor (παιδαγωγός).
 
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yonah_mishael

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Another reason Paul couldn't do away with Torah:

Yeshua is the word of YHWH (John 1). He is the living Torah. You cannot do away with Torah without doing away with Yeshua. Also YHWH does not change, so his word does not change. Israel followed the Torah before Yeshua came, they will follow it when he comes again, so why would we not follow it now?

Paul did not see himself as getting rid of law altogether. Don't forget that he taught that "through Christ Jesus the law of the spirit of life" was still in operation, which was liberating and opposed to the law that brings death (because it carries the death sentence for disobedience). Cf. Romans 8:1-4.

You're obfuscating when you say that Paul couldn't set aside the Torah (that is, a set of writings that contained curses for disobedience and death sentences for trespasses) in favor of freedom and what he considered to be a new and overriding law – the law of Christ. It was Christ who fulfilled the requirements of the law to bring those who could not (and would, therefore, be subject to the death penalties as appropriate) into right standing with God. Because these requirements have been met, there is no longer any need for you to be a slave to them.
 
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yonah_mishael

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Why do I feel like I'm preaching the Christian gospel to those who are supposed to be believers in Jesus? These are such basic principles of Christian faith that it seems odd that I should have to lay them as a foundation – given that I don't believe them.
 
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T

TanteBelle

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In fact, that's exactly what Paul said. To quote it again:
ἐλθούσης δὲ τῆς πίστεως οὐκέτι ὑπὸ παιδαγωγόν ἐσμεν.
But once faith has come, we are no longer under the tutor. (Gal 3:25)
He specifically said "we are no longer under the tutor." Why? He covers that in Galatians 4:1-5.
What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world. But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.
"Elemental spiritual forces of the world" is another way to say the forces operating in the Torah, under which Paul states that the Jewish people were subjected as slaves. The "guardians and trustees" refer also to the Torah and to the leadership of the Jewish religion - which was put into place to keep people from sin. Once faith comes, however, you are considered "mature" and no longer need to be kept like a slave - since you are now a "son" instead.
Your interpretation of the analogy might be fitting in the eyes of many, but it isn't how Paul interpreted it. Alternatively, the παιδαγωγός is only a leader of a παῖς ("child"), upon which the word is built (παῖς + ἄγω). They lead (ἄγω) a child (παῖς), not a mature heir of the kingdom. According to Paul, since Jesus, you are an heir and a son, no longer a child and no longer under the supervision of the tutor (παιδαγωγός).

So, I'm curious sir, what was Yeshua if He was the living torah and did torah and preached torah. As Yeshua Himself said, 'A house divided against itself can not stand'. So, if we are now mature in faith and have no need of torah, then Yeshua, who is totally perfect in torah has no need of torah ...... but yet He's preaching and living torah. How can Paul call the torah 'perfect law of liberty' and call it 'good' ... if now that we reach some higher spiritual point, we are now of no need of torah. It makes no sense. Now that I'm a grown adult and know the rules that my father brought me to live by, does that mean that I no longer need those laws? How can we be expected to live by
divine principles during one stage of our lives but suddenly those things that were our 'very life' as Moshe said, are suddenly of no need to us? Where's the sense in that? Yeshua is therefore a respector of persons!

May I also ask respectfully, sir, are you Jewish by faith or Messianic by faith? I'm kinda confused as you have the Jewish symbol up there but you are quoting Paul, so I'm not sure.
 
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yedida

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This thread took off and covered several pages whilst I slept. I've asked this before but I'll bring it up again.

If Paul had quit living as a Jew, observing Torah why did he not just be upfront and tell James so.
When James stated that he knew the rumors he was hearing were untrue, this would have been a most opportune time to let James know the truth of the matter. Why, instead, did Paul follow James' suggestions to quell the "false" rumors?
Was this not entirely dishonest on Paul's part?

When offering his defense in Acts, if Paul had indeed been teaching against obeying Torah law, why did he insist that he had neither done nor said anything against the Law, traditions or customs of his people when indeed he had? This was outright lying, unless he hadn't.

There was a time when Paul had been away and he wanted to return to Jerusalem in time for the "fast." It is generally considered that this "fast" is the fast of Yom Kippur. If he is not observing Torah and God's set times, why would this be important to him, or was he wanting to observe this "fast" as commanded?

Was Paul a liar? Did he go about giving false impressions of himself? He as much as admitted that he'd go to whatever measure was necessary to save some one. Or have we terribly misunderstood what he was trying to teach? Or, was much of what we have of him been rearranged just enough to build "another" religion to separate the Christian from the Jew?
 
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visionary

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Didn't Paul use "under the law" the same way that our government uses it...

By the Fourteenth Amendment the powers of the States in dealing with crime within their borders are not limited, but no State can deprive particular persons or classes of persons of equal and impartial justice under the law.
 
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TanteBelle

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There is a difference between Judaism and the man-made traditions and simply torah. Yeshua came to put right the wrong uses of torah by man. 'by your traditions you make the word of God of none effect'. 'Teaching for commandments the doctrines of men'. 'All that the scribes and pharisees tell you to do, do it! But don't do as they do for they say and do not.' What were they telling the people to do but weren't doing themselves? Torah. Oh, they went overboard and burdened the people with all these traditions. I'M NOT SAYING TRADITION IS BAD; what makes traditions bad is when the traditions become your doctrine. The same problem that Yeshua tackled with was the same that the 'NT' church was dealing with in regards to Peter, Paul, and James. Jews bringing in traditions but still thinking that those traditions are torah. Confusing the line between their traditions and what torah says. Paul and Peter, like Yeshua, came to set the record straight, not to diminish anything that torah says. 'Till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one title shall pass from torah till all be fulfilled.' Last I recall, heaven and earth are still here and not all has been fulfilled!
 
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Heber

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Why do I feel like I'm preaching the Christian gospel to those who are supposed to be believers in Jesus? These are such basic principles of Christian faith that it seems odd that I should have to lay them as a foundation – given that I don't believe them.


That's how we preachers all felt when we started out. That is why my strap line, under the picture, says: Make Bible poverty, history. I'm not talking about the need for Bibles in the world, as such, but, rather, the lack of Biblical knowledge from those who already have a Bible!
 
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Desert Rose

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Wow, a first and second degree studying a second language is going to be a tall order. Most folk would not attempt a first degree in a second language, let alone a Masters. I wish you well, Yonah.

I've just started a second Masters. My thesis will be on aspects of Paul's teaching (hence the Sandmel book). I shall not say which aspect on here, though.

please! i am so curious.. give a hint! :)

Yeh, cant miss a chance to praise our Yonah. He can do it! Actually a person is better equipped to get a Masters in foreign lngge being a non native speaker. Fisrt tongue-ers minds are too polluted by learning the vulgar version of langugage from childhood. Yonah starts from (almost clear, he lives in .il and watched local TV) clear page. :D

Good ol boy Ben Perelman , from russian lubavich hassid's family otherwise known as Ben-Yehuda, is rolling in his grave at what is being done to his baby...

BTW, yonah, while on the subj.Why didnt he choose ashkenazi flavor, being from a white european boy, but went with sephardic when desigining hebrew, do you know ?I dont know, for real
 
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visionary

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314873_2356793037736_1187527772_32443142_806702507_n.jpg
 
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yonah_mishael

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Hello, TB. I'm not too sure how to start, but I'll do my best.

So, I'm curious sir, what was Yeshua if He was the living torah and did torah and preached torah.

I don't really understand the question or if this is a question. Is this similar to "what is a book if it is a group of papers bound together with a front cover, a back cover and a spine of some sort"? I don't get what you're saying.

As Yeshua Himself said, 'A house divided against itself can not stand'. So, if we are now mature in faith and have no need of torah, then Yeshua, who is totally perfect in torah has no need of torah ...... but yet He's preaching and living torah.

We're talking about Paul, not about Jesus. I'd be glad to have a discussion about what Jesus viewed of his own mission, but that would be a little more complex. Either way, it isn't relevant to the current issue, is it?

How can Paul call the torah 'perfect law of liberty' and call it 'good' ... if now that we reach some higher spiritual point, we are now of no need of torah. It makes no sense.

The one who wrote "perfect law of liberty" was James, not Paul. It makes no sense to me to quote James in Paul's mouth, since they had quite differing views of the Torah (IMO).

Cf. James 1:25 (ὁ δὲ παρακύψας εἰς νόμον τέλειον τὸν τῆς ἐλευθερίας καὶ παραμείνας, οὐκ ἀκροατὴς ἐπιλησμονῆς γενόμενος ἀλλὰ ποιητὴς ἔργου, οὗτος μακάριος ἐν τῇ ποιήσει αὐτοῦ ἔσται.).

Now that I'm a grown adult and know the rules that my father brought me to live by, does that mean that I no longer need those laws? How can we be expected to live by divine principles during one stage of our lives but suddenly those things that were our 'very life' as Moshe said, are suddenly of no need to us? Where's the sense in that? Yeshua is therefore a respector of persons!

I'm not sure what the problem is here.

May I also ask respectfully, sir, are you Jewish by faith or Messianic by faith? I'm kinda confused as you have the Jewish symbol up there but you are quoting Paul, so I'm not sure.

I'm not Messianic. I quote Paul because it's relevant and I enjoy Paul's writings. Is that problematic, too? I don't really understand any of the problems you're having in this post. Could you be more clear?

Thanks.
 
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yonah_mishael

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BTW, yonah, while on the subj.Why didnt he choose ashkenazi flavor, being from a white european boy, but went with sephardic when desigining hebrew, do you know ?I dont know, for real

Really no idea!!! I'm glad, though. I much prefer it!
 
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visionary

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We're talking about Paul, not about Jesus. I'd be glad to have a discussion about what Jesus viewed of his own mission, but that would be a little more complex.
I would like to hear your view of Yeshua's mission..
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Wow, a first and second degree studying a second language is going to be a tall order. Most folk would not attempt a first degree in a second language, let alone a Masters. I wish you well, Yonah.

I've just started a second Masters. My thesis will be on aspects of Paul's teaching (hence the Sandmel book). I shall not say which aspect on here, though.
That should be a great thesis! :thumbsup:

Is there anyway you could send me a copy of it?

2 Peter 3:15 and the long-suffering of our Lord count ye salvation, according as also our beloved brother Paul--according to the wisdom given to him--did write to you
16 As also in all the letters, speaking in them about these-things,in which is difficult-to-understand, whoany which the unlearned and unsteadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rests of Writings, toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684
[This form of #684 used in Revelation 17:8]
 
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Heber

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That should be a great thesis! :thumbsup:

Is there anyway you could send me a copy of it?


2 Peter 3:15 and the long-suffering of our Lord count ye salvation, according as also our beloved brother Paul--according to the wisdom given to him--did write to you
16 As also in all the letters, speaking in them about these-things,in which is difficult-to-understand, whoany which the unlearned and unsteadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rests of Writings, toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684
[This form of #684 used in Revelation 17:8]

I am just starting the degree - it will not be ready for a couple of years!
 
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