Undecided in eschatology

parousia70 · Jan 12, 2023

5thKingdom said:
After the Jewish Kingdom there was a (3rd) Christian Kingdom which continued
until the Great Commission was completed at the "End of the Age" and the Last Saint
had been "sealed" (saved)... then (and only then) could the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom begin

What scripture(s) teach this theory of the "Last Saint" being sealed (saved)?

From what I read, Scripture testifies Jesus' Government INCREASES forever:
Isaiah 9:7
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

You can't simultaneously have a never ending INCREASE in His government while you have an end to the increase of people under His governorship.

5thKingdom · Jan 12, 2023

parousia70 said:
Well, isn't the goal that everyone Love God with all their heart and love their neighbor as themselves?
Isn't that the point of Jesus' command to "Make disciples of all nations"?

Yes, Jesus taught we are to fulfill the Great Commission and He would be with us....
UNTIL the period called the "End of the Age".

However, Jesus also taught that AFTER the Great Commission of the Church Age
there would be a (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven". [Mat 25:1]

The (3rd) Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission = the THIRD BEAST
The (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" = the FOURTH BEAST

How in the world can you expect to understand the MEANING of Scripture
when you cannot discern the CONTEXT (the Second or Third or Fourth "Beast")?

Of course the answer is you CANNOT understand meaning without the context.

.

5thKingdom · Jan 12, 2023

parousia70 said:
What scripture(s) teach this theory of the "Last Saint" being sealed (saved)?

Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 9:4
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;
but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The Last Saints being "sealed" BEFORE the Fourth Beast (Revelation Beast and Great Tribulation) can BEGIN
is NOT some "theory"... it is the Gospel of Christ.

Why is this "news" to you?

/

Wayne Gabler · Jan 14, 2023

Study each version as much as possible. I settled for the people alive for the 1,000 years as being the first ones taken to New Jerusalem in a wide awake state.

Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

5thKingdom · Jan 15, 2023

Wayne Gabler said:
Study each version as much as possible. I settled for the people alive for the 1,000 years as being the first ones taken to New Jerusalem in a wide awake state.
.

The church has always understood the 1000 years represents the Great Commission of the Church Age
which continues until the "End of the Age" [Mat 28:18-20]... until the Last Saint is "sealed" [Rev 7:1]
JUST BEFORE the Great Tribulation BEGINS.

Your theory contradicts what the church has always taught and what SCRIPTURE demands.
The Great Tribulation (or Revelation Beast) BEGINS immediately AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"
And THAT (the saving of the Last Saint) happens DURING the Great Commission of the Chruch.

(1) Great Commission of the Church (1000 years is not literal0
(2) Last Saint is "sealed" (saved) during the Great Commission
(3) AFTER the last Saint is "sealed" Satan is released
(4) When Satan is released the Great Tribulation begins

This is not hard.. the Bible is clear about this chronology

/

RoadoftheGypsy · Jan 16, 2023

5thKingdom said:
The church has always understood the 1000 years represents the Great Commission of the Church Age
which continues until the "End of the Age" [Mat 28:18-20]... until the Last Saint is "sealed" [Rev 7:1]
JUST BEFORE the Great Tribulation BEGINS.

Your theory contradicts what the church has always taught and what SCRIPTURE demands.
The Great Tribulation (or Revelation Beast) BEGINS immediately AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"
And THAT (the saving of the Last Saint) happens DURING the Great Commission of the Chruch.

(1) Great Commission of the Church (1000 years is not literal0
(2) Last Saint is "sealed" (saved) during the Great Commission
(3) AFTER the last Saint is "sealed" Satan is released
(4) When Satan is released the Great Tribulation begins

This is not hard.. the Bible is clear about this chronology

/

Thats just not true. The church has NOT always believed the 1000 years represents the great commission... Irenaeus, Ignatius, Papias, Justin Martyr etc. all were premillennial. They were actually the majority for the first few centuries, its not until Augustine that amillennialism has been "THE" teaching of "THE" church. (IF by the church we mean the government one, who knows what the persecuted groups believed)

Wayne Gabler · Jan 16, 2023

5thKingdom said:
The church has always understood the 1000 years represents the Great Commission of the Church Age
which continues until the "End of the Age" [Mat 28:18-20]... until the Last Saint is "sealed" [Rev 7:1]
JUST BEFORE the Great Tribulation BEGINS.

Zec:14 is about the 1,000 year reign, the 12 Tribes are whole and do not leave Israel, the Gentile Church wanders around the rest of the world and come to Israel for a yearly feast that is based on the Psaaover date. Neither group is given in marriage so their numbers never increase, they are immortal in that era so their numbers never decrease either.

DavidPT · Jan 16, 2023

5thKingdom said:
The church has always understood the 1000 years represents the Great Commission of the Church Age
which continues until the "End of the Age" [Mat 28:18-20]... until the Last Saint is "sealed" [Rev 7:1]
JUST BEFORE the Great Tribulation BEGINS.

Your theory contradicts what the church has always taught and what SCRIPTURE demands.
The Great Tribulation (or Revelation Beast) BEGINS immediately AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"
And THAT (the saving of the Last Saint) happens DURING the Great Commission of the Chruch.

(1) Great Commission of the Church (1000 years is not literal0
(2) Last Saint is "sealed" (saved) during the Great Commission
(3) AFTER the last Saint is "sealed" Satan is released
(4) When Satan is released the Great Tribulation begins

This is not hard.. the Bible is clear about this chronology

/

Why don't you then prove, that in both testaments, when a cardinal number is followed by years, that it is always taken in a literal sense, that this is not true in some cases? Which then would prove that a thousand years might be one of those cases. In order to prove this though, you can't prove it via the thousand years since that is the number in question, you need to prove it via other cardinal numbers, such as 7 years, for example, that in some cases it doesn't literally mean 7 years. Otherwise your view is contradicting Scripture if, when a cardinal number is followed by years, it is meaning in the literal sense, that this applies to any cardinal number exept for a thousand.

And no, I don't need any examples of the number 1000 not involving years. It's obvious that a thousand, depending on the context, is not always meaning a literal thousand every single time. Except, for example, a thousand hills and a thousand years are not the same concept. The former means every hill in existence. The latter does not mean every year in existence since the beginning of time. Therefore, nothing to compare here.

Wayne Gabler · Jan 16, 2023

The 1,000 years is equal to 1 day if the law in place is the Re:21 set:
2Pe:3:8:
But,
beloved,
be not ignorant of this one thing,
that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years,
and a thousand years as one day.

The 70 weeks of years in Daniel can be thought of as solar years or lunar years, with the leap months left in place. 7 lunar years, with 2 leap months left in and 7 solar years use almost same number of days in 7 years. (rather than it is 7 lunar years with no leap months which is 360 days per year) They are the same number over 20 years.

The Jewish or Hebrew Leap Year

The Jewish leap year has 13 months and occurs 7 times in a 19-year cycle.

www.timeanddate.com

A leap year in the Jewish calendar has 13 months and occurs 7 times in a 19-year cycle. In Hebrew, a leap year is referred to as Shanah Me'uberet, or pregnant year.

Leap Year Rules

A leap year occurs 7 times in the 19-year Metonic cycle, namely, in years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 19 of the cycle. This means that a leap month is added every 2 to 3 years.

Did Adam live 930 years, which is 70 years short of him being alive for 1 day. God's prophecy was he would die in the same day that he ate from the tree of knowledge.

DavidPT · Jan 16, 2023

Wayne Gabler said:
The 1,000 years is equal to 1 day if the law in place is the Re:21 set:
2Pe:3:8:
But,
beloved,
be not ignorant of this one thing,
that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years,
and a thousand years as one day.

You lost me, I have no clue what this is supposed to mean. Mainly meaning what you stated in the first sentence then how that is applicable to 2 Peter 3:8.

Wayne Gabler · Jan 16, 2023

DavidPT said:
You lost me, I have no clue what this is supposed to mean. Mainly meaning what you stated in the first sentence then how that is applicable to 2 Peter 3:8.

I'm pointing out time under the 10 Commandments is 360 days per year when using 12 months, when each month is 30 days long. In the new earth verses in Isa:65 if you were to visit New Jerusalem, a month-long visit would be 30,000 of our years.
When David killed Goliath that change the law from the Re:21 set to the 10 Commandments. When the immortal Beast kills the two witnesses, the Re:21 set of laws returns.
Keep prodding me until it is clear what I am promoting.

5thKingdom · Jan 16, 2023

5thKingdom said:
The church has always understood the 1000 years represents the Great Commission of the Church Age
which continues until the "End of the Age" [Mat 28:18-20]... until the Last Saint is "sealed" [Rev 7:1]
JUST BEFORE the Great Tribulation BEGINS.

DavidPT said:
Why don't you then prove, that in both testaments, when a cardinal number is followed by years, that it is always taken in a literal sense, that this is not true in some cases?

I am sorry but your criteria DOES NOT MATCH the Biblical criteria for finding Biblical Truth
... which is the complete harmony of Scripture - doctrine that does NOT contradict ANY Scripture
(not cardinal numbers... you ADDED that to the Biblical criteria.

There can be no doubt about the FIRST PART of my comment:
The Church has always understood the 1000 years represents the Great Commission of the Christian "Kingdom".
The A-Millennial position is the "traditional" position of the early Churches and the Reformed Churches.

And there can be no doubt that Great Commission continues until the "End of the Age"

Mat 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always,
even unto the End-of-the-Age. Amen.

5thKingdom said:
The church has always understood the 1000 years represents the Great Commission of the Church Age
which continues until the "End of the Age" [Mat 28:18-20]... until the Last Saint is "sealed" [Rev 7:1]
JUST BEFORE the Great Tribulation BEGINS.

And there can be no doubt the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom... Daniel's Fourth Beast... the Revelation Beast
the RULE of the Anti-Christ DURING Satan's "Little Season" CAN NOT BEGIN until the Great Commission is complete
and the LAST SAINT has been "sealed" (saved).

Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

5thKingdom said:
The church has always understood the 1000 years represents the Great Commission of the Church Age
which continues until the "End of the Age" [Mat 28:18-20]... until the Last Saint is "sealed" [Rev 7:1]
JUST BEFORE the Great Tribulation BEGINS.

(1) There can be no (Biblical) doubt that I have PROVEN my comments with Scripture

(2) There can be no doubt the Great Commission continues to the "End-of-the-Age"
and when the LAST SAINT is "sealed" the Revelation Beast / Daniel's Fourth Beast
the Great Tribulation BEGINS

(3) There can be no doubt that Salvation ENDS when the Last Saint is "sealed"...
there is NO SALVATION during Daniel's Fourth Beast / the Revelation Beast / the Great Tribulation / Satan's "Little Season"

The ONLY DOUBT that is possible is not understanding
Daniel's 4th Beast = the Revelation Beast = the Great Tribulation = The rule of the Anti-Christ = Satan's "Little Season"

Some people will not (or can not) understand the "Little Season" is the Great Tribulation.
But that is "willful ignorance" of the Scriptures - nothing more.
The Scriptures are clear enough.
It is the Fourth Beast.

/

5thKingdom · Jan 16, 2023

RoadoftheGypsy said:
Thats just not true. The church has NOT always believed the 1000 years represents the great commission... Irenaeus, Ignatius, Papias, Justin Martyr etc. all were premillennial. They were actually the majority for the first few centuries, its not until Augustine that amillennialism has been "THE" teaching of "THE" church. (IF by the church we mean the government one, who knows what the persecuted groups believed)

Sir, you do not harmonize ALL RELATED passages about the Return of Christ
The early church and the Apostles definitely taught the Return of Christ was the NEXT event.
They did NOT teach a 1000 year period AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed" and the Revelation Beast BEGINS.

The A-Millennial position (that the 1000 years represented the Church Age)
did not begin with Augustine... it was ACCEPTED by Augustine.
Read what the Apostles taught:

2Th 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the COMING OF OUIR LORD Lord Jesus Christ,
AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTI HIM. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the DAY OF CHRIST IS AT HAND. [during the FIRST century]
Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY [of Christ] SHALL NOT COME, except [until]
there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Remember, the "Man of Sin" is "revealed" to the Last Saints during the FOURTH Beast.
the FOURTH Beast is at the END of the Great Commission of the Church Age...
when the LAST SAINT has been "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]

2Th 2:4-5
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he
as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you,
I told you these things? [the Apostolic teaching of the A-Millennial doctrine]

2Th 2:6-8
And now ye know what withholdeth [restrains] that he [the Man of Sin] might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [the Holy Spirit] will let [will restrain],
UNTIL HE [THE HOLY SPIRIT] BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. [after the Last Saint is "sealed" and BEFORE the Revelation Beast BEGINS]
And THEN [after the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" so Satan can RULE the Fourth Kingdom]
THEN shall that Wicked be revealed [to the Last Saints], whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit
of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The BIBLE IS CLEAR...
The Great Commission of the Church Age continues until the "End of the Age"
at that time, AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed" the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way"
so Satan (and his "Man of Sin") can RULE Daniel's Fourth Beast / the Revelation Beast /
the Great Tribulation and the Rule of the Anit-Christ DURING Satan's "Little Season"

THE APOSTLES did not teach there is a 1000 year period AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed'
and BEFORE the Revelation Beast / the Great Tribulation Kingdom BEGINS.
That notion is NOT FOUND in any Scripture...
it's a false doctrine of man.

THE APOSTLES taught the Revelation Beast / Great Tribulation
BEGINS immediately AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"
That is what the early church taught.
That is what the Bible teaches.

Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

You may not LIKE the fact that the Apostles taught the Great Tribulation / Revelation Beast BEGINS
immediately AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed"... but THAT is what they taught.
And THAT is what the text teaches.

There is no 1000 year period AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed'
and BEFORE Satan is released.

That notion is the fantasy of men.

/

parousia70 · Jan 16, 2023

5thKingdom said:
2Th 2:6-8
And now ye know what withholdeth [restrains] that he [the Man of Sin] might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [the Holy Spirit] will let [will restrain],
UNTIL HE [THE HOLY SPIRIT] BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. [after the Last Saint is "sealed" and BEFORE the Revelation Beast BEGINS]
And THEN [after the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" so Satan can RULE the Fourth Kingdom]
THEN shall that Wicked be revealed [to the Last Saints], whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit
of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

There sure are a lot of speculative presumptions you have added [in brackets] to that passage.

In my experience, whenever someone needs to add words to scriptures that aren't actually in those scriptures in order to support their view, it's concrete proof that their view is what actually needs adjusting, not the scriptures.

5thKingdom · Jan 16, 2023

5thKingdom said:
2Th 2:6-8
And now ye know what withholdeth [restrains] that he [the Man of Sin] might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [the Holy Spirit] will let [will restrain],
UNTIL HE [THE HOLY SPIRIT] BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. [after the Last Saint is "sealed" and BEFORE the Revelation Beast BEGINS]
And THEN [after the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" so Satan can RULE the Fourth Kingdom]
THEN shall that Wicked be revealed [to the Last Saints], whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit
of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

parousia70 said:
There sure are a lot of speculative presumptions you have added [in brackets] to that passage.

In my experience, whenever someone needs to add words to scriptures that aren't actually in those scriptures in order to support their view, it's concrete proof that their view is what actually needs adjusting, not the scriptures.

(1) First... you did not cite the REST OF SCRIPTURES I provided that harmonize with the passage you cited.
The Scriptures I quoted SHOW the Revelation Beast/Great Tribulation begins immediately AFTER
the Last Saint has been "sealed" at the END of the Great Commission...
at the "End of the Age".

The Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" when the Last Saint has been "sealed"
because SATAN RULES during the Revelation Beast/Great Tribulation

The Saints cannot "live and reign with Christ" while SATAN RULES
One is the Great Commission the other is the Great Tribulation
the NATURE of the Great Tribulation is SATAN RULES

(2) Secondly... you did not REFUTE anything I said (because you cannot - it harmonizes with ALL RELATED passages)
you only express a DENIAL based on your lack of understanding. Your understanding does NOT establish Truth,
ONLY the harmony of Scripture (which I provided) establishes Biblical Truth.

If you think inserting the MEANING of word or phrases is ADDING to Scripture (instead of explaining it)
Then you FIRST need to show where those inserted words CONTRADICT (instead of explain) the passage...
You did not DO that because you cannot.

(3) Finally.... I have shown how the Great Tribulation / Revelation Beast begins immediately AFTER
the Last Saint has been "sealed". This means SALVATION ENDS when the Great Commission is complete
and the Last Saint has been saved. THAT is when the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way"...
if you DENY this understanding then you are obligated to REFUTE it from Scirpture.

So say you DOUBT it is LESS than meaningless.
The process of Bible Study was established 2000 years ago.
One man offers a doctrine... the other Saints are COMMANDED to search the Scriptures
and either CONFIRM that doctrine harmonizes with ALL RELATED passages...
or else REFUTE that doctrine with contradicting Scripture.
You have FAILED to follow that process.

/

Wayne Gabler · Jan 16, 2023

RoadoftheGypsy said:
Thats just not true. The church has NOT always believed the 1000 years represents the great commission... Irenaeus, Ignatius, Papias, Justin Martyr etc. all were premillennial. They were actually the majority for the first few centuries, its not until Augustine that amillennialism has been "THE" teaching of "THE" church. (IF by the church we mean the government one, who knows what the persecuted groups believed)

Wasn't the mission of the Church to publish the Bible so every house had one? That would allow them to me judged based on what they did with the book. Reading and talking about God would show you were a believer, closing in and putting it in a corner would mean you would be part of the Re:20:5 group rather than the Re:20:4 group.
That has to be done before all Gentiles can be judged. This verse includes every gentile that is alive at nay given moment.

Re:1:7:
Behold,
he cometh with clouds;
and every eye shall see him,
and they also which pierced him:
and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
Even so,
Amen.

The first 6 trumps are tribulation for all Gentiles, the 7th trumps is the 7 vials that kill the 2/3 of Gentiles that are sinners, the 1/3 that survive do so because they understand what the Bible promotes. That would include what the abomination is:

M't:24:14-15:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;
and then shall the end come.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
stand in the holy place,
(whoso readeth,
let him understand
Da:11:31:
And arms shall stand on his part,
and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,
and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Ac:13:49:
And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

In the 1,000 years, the 12 Tribes and Gentile Church are being taught about life in a sinless earth where people do not die from old age or any other reason. The 24 Elders will be the teachers, everybody else is at the same level of knowledge about the Kingdom of God.
Jer:31:33-34:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days,
saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour,
and every man his brother,
saying,
Know the LORD:
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them unto the greatest of them,
saith the LORD;
for I will forgive their iniquity,
and I will remember their sin no more.

parousia70 · Jan 16, 2023

5thKingdom said:
5thKingdom said:
2Th 2:6-8
And now ye know what withholdeth [restrains] that he [the Man of Sin] might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [the Holy Spirit] will let [will restrain],
UNTIL HE [THE HOLY SPIRIT] BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. [after the Last Saint is "sealed" and BEFORE the Revelation Beast BEGINS]
And THEN [after the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" so Satan can RULE the Fourth Kingdom]
THEN shall that Wicked be revealed [to the Last Saints], whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit
of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

(1) First... you did not cite the REST OF SCRIPTURES I provided that harmonize with the passage you cited.
The Scriptures I quoted SHOW the Revelation Beast/Great Tribulation begins immediately AFTER
the Last Saint has been "sealed" at the END of the Great Commission...
at the "End of the Age".

The Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" when the Last Saint has been "sealed"
because SATAN RULES during the Revelation Beast/Great Tribulation

The Saints cannot "live and reign with Christ" while SATAN RULES
One is the Great Commission the other is the Great Tribulation
the NATURE of the Great Tribulation is SATAN RULES

(2) Secondly... you did not REFUTE anything I said (because you cannot - it harmonizes with ALL RELATED passages)
you only express a DENIAL based on your lack of understanding. Your understanding does NOT establish Truth,
ONLY the harmony of Scripture (which I provided) establishes Biblical Truth.

If you think inserting the MEANING of word or phrases is ADDING to Scripture (instead of explaining it)
Then you FIRST need to show where those inserted words CONTRADICT (instead of explain) the passage...
You did not DO that because you cannot.

(3) Finally.... I have shown how the Great Tribulation / Revelation Beast begins immediately AFTER
the Last Saint has been "sealed". This means SALVATION ENDS when the Great Commission is complete
and the Last Saint has been saved. THAT is when the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way"...
if you DENY this understanding then you are obligated to REFUTE it from Scirpture.

So say you DOUBT it is LESS than meaningless.
The process of Bible Study was established 2000 years ago.
One man offers a doctrine... the other Saints are COMMANDED to search the Scriptures
and either CONFIRM that doctrine harmonizes with ALL RELATED passages...
or else REFUTE that doctrine with contradicting Scripture.
You have FAILED to follow that process.

/

Then you should be able to demonstrate from scripture ANY teaching that supports your presumption that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.

Take all the time you need. I'll wait.

Wayne Gabler · Jan 16, 2023

5thKingdom said:
5thKingdom said:
2Th 2:6-8
And now ye know what withholdeth [restrains] that he [the Man of Sin] might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [the Holy Spirit] will let [will restrain],
UNTIL HE [THE HOLY SPIRIT] BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. [after the Last Saint is "sealed" and BEFORE the Revelation Beast BEGINS]
And THEN [after the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" so Satan can RULE the Fourth Kingdom]
THEN shall that Wicked be revealed [to the Last Saints], whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit
of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The meaning changes to two prophecies not being fulfilled as the thing that is holding back the return if you use these verses? The throne prophecy can only happen during the 4 days the two witnesses are dead
The letter is the Book of revelation:
2Th:2:1-6:
Now we beseech you,
brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled,
neither by spirit,
nor by word,
nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not,
that,
when I was yet with you,
I told you these things?
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

5thKingdom · Jan 16, 2023

parousia70 said:
Then you should be able to demonstrate from scripture ANY teaching that supports your presumption that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.

Take all the time you need. I'll wait.

You are not aware it is the Holy Spirit that restrains?

/

5thKingdom · Jan 16, 2023

parousia70 said:
Then you should be able to demonstrate from scripture ANY teaching that supports your presumption that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.

Take all the time you need. I'll wait.

Do you not understand WHO it is that "withhodeth" during the Church Age?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Do you not understand WHO it is that "letteth" during the Church Age?
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

/

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