Undecided in eschatology

parousia70 said:

Any translation that renders the Greek word Aion (Age) as "World", as the KJV does, is a demosntrably poor translation.

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That is correct.
Matthew 28:18-20 should read "End of the Age".
not "End of the World"

I did not say the KJV was perfect
I said it's the best translation we have.


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5thKingdom said:

First, let's remember the CONTEXT
We are talking about events happening during the Fourth Beast
The Bible PROMISES the Truth about Daniel's Fourth Beast remains "closed-up" and "sealed"
to all the Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand" during the "Time-of-the-End"


Therefore, any "interpretation" made BEFORE the Last Saints "shall understand"
MUST BE WRONG because it was developed during a time when the Bible PROMISES
the Truth remained "closed-up" and "sealed".


That is WHY we already KNOW the "interpretations" about Babylon/Persia/Greece/Rome being the Four Kingdoms
MUST BE WRONG... the same applies here


It doe NO GOOD to reference an "interpretation" made while the Truth remained "sealed"...
I don't know WHY you continue to do such a thing. Unless you REJECT the Word of God in Dan 12?


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I'm not arguing against any of this that you submitted in this post. This I basically agree with you about. I'm only arguing against your interpretation of verse 7, the fact, according to the Greek no one is being taken out of the way. And that you are arguing that someone is being taken out of the way, the Holy Spirit in this case.

My view is basically this. The revealing of the man of sin and the falling away connected with that is preventing the gathering per verse 1 from occurring. IOW, until those events are fulfilled first, and I'm certain you agree, the gathering in verse 1 can't happen in the meantime. Which then means we also need to factor in this---that he might be revealed in his time(2 Thessalonians 2:6)---obviously, meaning there is an appointed time set aside for this, which then involves the time of the end per the book of Daniel.

BTW, I have as of now edited that post you were initially responding to, since what I was arguing against didn't show up in quotes per your post I was quoting. Now it should be clearer anyway, what I'm basically arguing against. Therefore, my bad for initially failing to quote exactly what I was taking issue with in your post.

DavidPT said:

My view basically is this. The revealing of the man of sin and the falling away connected with that is preventing the gathering per verse 1 from occurring. IOW, until those events are fulfilled first, and I'm certain you agree, the gathering in verse 1 can't happen in the meantime.

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David it is beginning of the Day of Christ that is subject to the fulfillemnt of the falling away and the man of sin revealed - not the gathering unto the Lord.

parousia70 said:

The accusaton that I add to the text is humorous coming from someone such as yourself who plainly has added "the Holy Spirit" to this text where it does not exist at all.

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Sir, explaining the CONTEXT of the Holy Spirit that "restrains" during the Great Commission
BEFORE he is "taken out of the way" AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]...


Is not ADDING to the text... it is showing the HARMONY OF SCRIPTURE that "reveals" the difference
between the (3rd) Christian Kingdom (when the Saints "lived and reigned with Christ")
and the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom when SATAN RULES.


BTW... Daniel 12:4 and 12:8-10 PROMISES the Truth of Daniel's Beasts remains "closed-up" and "sealed"
to all Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End".
So we expect this is NEW INFORMATION to you.


Since 2 Thess 2 is talking about BOTH the (3rd) Christian Kingdom when the Holy Spirit restrains...
AND the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom when the "Man of Sin" is "revealed" to the Last Saints..
you cannot HOPE to understand the MEANING of 2 Thess 2 until you understand Daniel's Beasts


There is a DIFFERENCE between the Third Beast of the Great Commission SAVING Saints
and the Fourth Beast that CAN NOT BEGIN until the Last Saint has ben "sealed" (saved)
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES that reality.


You cannot POSSIBLY understand 2 Thess 2 unless/until you understand the TWO separate Beasts
being referenced in the passage... the (3rd) Christian Kingdom and the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom
That is the CONTEXT that you have not been able to discern.



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DavidPT said:

I'm not arguing against any of this that you submitted in this post. This I basically agree with you about. I'm only arguing against your interpretation of verse 7, the fact, according to the Greek no one is being taken out of the way. And that you are arguing that someone is being taken out of the way, the Holy Spirit in this case.

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It is very clear that SOMEONE is being "taken out of the way"


(KJV) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

(LITV) For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.

(YLT) for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now will hinder —till he may be out of the way,


WHO is "taken out of the way"...
the previous verse tells us WHO


2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth [the Holy Spirit during the Third Beast]
that he [the Man of Sin] might be revealed in his time [during the Fourth Beast]


You see the PROBLEM is 2 Thess 2 refers to TWO separate Beasts


The (3rd) Christian Beast of the Church Age, existing in the first century and
The (4th) Great Tribulation Beast that DOES NOT ARISE until the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved)
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES this fact.

DavidPT said:

My view is basically this. The revealing of the man of sin and the falling away connected with that is preventing the gathering per verse 1 from occurring. IOW, until those events are fulfilled first, and I'm certain you agree, the gathering in verse 1 can't happen in the meantime. Which then means we also need to factor in this---that he might be revealed in his time(2 Thessalonians 2:6)---obviously, meaning there is an appointed time set aside for this, which then involves the time of the end per the book of Daniel.

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Yes, and the appointed time is during the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom (after the Last Saint is "sealed")
and NOT during the (3rd) Christian Kingdom (while the Saints are being "sealed")

I do not mean to imply you disagree with this...
I only mention it because it is critical to understanding the CONTEXT of 2 Thess 2

DavidPT said:

BTW, I have as of now edited that post you were initially responding to, since what I was arguing against didn't show up in quotes per your post I was quoting. Now it should be clearer anyway, what I'm basically arguing against. Therefore, my bad for initially failing to quote exactly what I was taking issue with in your post.

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Thank you... where is the "edited" version?

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Douggg said:

David it is beginning of the Day of Christ that is subject to the fulfillemnt of the falling away and the man of sin revealed - not the gathering unto the Lord.

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The "Day of the Lord" and the great "falling away" BOTH HAPPEN
AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved) DURING the Fourth Beast on earth.
Not during the Great Commission of the (3rd) Christian Kingdom.
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES this Biblical fact.


The "gathering" to the Lord HAPPENS at His Return


Th 4:15-17
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


1Co 15:50-53
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

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parousia70 said:

Any translation that renders the Greek word Aion (Age) as "World", as the KJV does, is a demosntrably poor translation.

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Sir... NO translation is perfect. I never implied otherwise.
The KJV is the BEST translation we have.
But it is not perfect.

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Douggg said:

David it is beginning of the Day of Christ that is subject to the fulfillemnt of the falling away and the man of sin revealed - not the gathering unto the Lord.

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Douggg, that's only a problemo if one is arguing that the day of the Lord is involving great tribulation, and that the gathering in verse 1 is meaning before great tribulation rather than after, and that these arguments are true. Except neither argument is true to begin with. Great tribulation does not involve the day of the Lord nor does the gathering in verse 1 mean prior to great tribulation.

My view is that the day of the Lord involves the 2nd coming. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean that the 2nd coming occurs the moment the day of the Lord begins. One reason I tend to conclude that would be because of the following, for example, where I take this to be involving the day of the Lord.

Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


Even though they don't repent, it still has to mean repenting is still an option except they refuse to repent. And that I don't see it being reasonable that once Christ bodily returns in the end of this age that repenting could still be an option.

5thKingdom said:

Thank you... where is the "edited" version?

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Post #186 I think. I edited what I initially quoted per your post to reflect what I specifically was arguing against.

parousia70 said:

Exactly.
Also important to note that in the first century, at the very time Paul was writing g to the Thessalonians, an actual MAN was at that time being restrained from his imminent takeover of the temple. "And you know what is restraining him now" And within a few short years of Paul’s letter, the temple was indeed taken over.

The notion that a sperm with an XY chromosome was somehow being restrained from entering an egg, and would continue to be restrained from entering that egg for thousands of years, is nowhere in the text.

The text is clear. There was a MAN, at that time, being restrained.

This is all first century stuff, fulfilled within a few short years after Paul wrote the letter.

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No, it was not a man being restrained. Sorry. Do you even know who that "actual man" was at that time being restrained? What few short years did it start before the temple was taken over? Let's see if you can prove it with Scripture instead of the book of Josephus.

parousia70 said:

No, they do not teach anything of the sort. You are presupposing your persinal bias onto the text.

That much is clear. Everyone here can see it.

There is absolutely NOTHING in those texts that even remotely suggests the Holy Spirit is the restrainer.
Not even one word.

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Yes, The mystery of lawlessness was at work in the days of the first century and it continues to be manifested today. However, then as now, evil and lawlessness are currently being held back and suppressed, by the One WHO restrains evil - the Holy Spirit. The lawlessness was restrained so that God can build his church through the testimony of Two Witnesses. After the testimony of Two Witnesses is finished (Rev 11:7), when all Elect has been sealed and secured, the Restrainer of evil will then be removed and unrestrained lawlessness will be loosed upon the earth as a judgment upon the unfaithful church, especially those men without the seal of God in the congregation.

Nothing to do with Titus, the physical city of Jerusalem, or 70AD.

DavidPT said:

Douggg, that's only a problemo if one is arguing that the day of the Lord is involving great tribulation, and that the gathering in verse 1 is meaning before great tribulation rather than after, and that these arguments are true. Except neither argument is true to begin with. Great tribulation does not involve the day of the Lord nor does the gathering in verse 1 mean prior to great tribulation.

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Exactly...
The Great Tribulation or Revelation Beast happens AFTER the Great Commission has finished
and AFTER the Last Saint has been "sealed"... Rev 7:1-3 PROVES that fact.

The Lord does not Return at the BEGINNING of the Great Tribulation / Revelation Beast...
He Returns at the END.


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DavidPT said:

Post #186 I think. I edited what I initially quoted per your post to reflect what I specifically was arguing against.

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thank you, I will look at #186

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DavidPT said:

Granted, not everyone likes to check out links to articles that a member has a posted a link to. Which then tells me since you are still arguing this, either you didn't notice the link I submitted in post #173, thus didn't read the entire post. Or, that you did notice it but are one that doesn't care to check out links to articles. Or, that you did read that article or at least attempted to, but simply found the article unconvincing, since, in your mind, you have a far better understanding of these things than that author does. Assuming it might be the latter, how then can any serious Bible student read that article and find it unconvincing makes no sense unless that person simply is unable to comprehend what that article is arguing over all. But, since that person was very clear about things, I can't imagine anyone reading that article then failing to comprehend what the author is arguing over all. Unless one thinks exegesis is not important, that eisegesis trumps exegesis.

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I already replied to this in post #186


When someone does not understand the CONTEXT of 2 Thess 2 includes BOTH
the (3rd) Christian Kingdom of the Great Commission and the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom...
then they cannot pretend to offer an "informed opinion" on the MEANING of the passage.


The "Man of Sin" is "revealed" during the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.
He is destroyed by the "brightness" of the Lord's Return.


2Th 2:8
And THEN shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Remember, the Bible PROMISES that the Truth of Daniel's Beasts would remain "closed-up" and "sealed"
from all the Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End".
That includes the "revealing" of the "Man of Sin"


Any OLD INTERPRETATIONS of 2 Thess 2 MUST BE WRONG
because they were developed during a time when the Bible PROMISES the Truth
remains "closed-up" and "sealed".

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5thKingdom said:

The KJV is the BEST translation we have.

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I understand this is your personal opinion.
I happen to disagree.

5thKingdom said:

I already replied to this in post #186

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I only edited per that post what I quoted from your post in order to better reflect what I was arguing against. I never edited anything in that post in regards to anything I said.

5thKingdom said:

Any OLD INTERPRETATIONS of 2 Thess 2 MUST BE WRONG
because they were developed during a time when the Bible PROMISES the Truth
remains "closed-up" and "sealed".

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What old interpretations of 2 Thessalonians 2 are you referring to? Preterist interpretations maybe? If so, I don't agree with Preterism about anything when it comes to 2 Thessalonians 2 to begin with. Never have never will. And I'm sure they don't agree with me in return. Clearly, 2 Thessalonians 2 is involving the 4th beast and the end of this age, not something 2000 years ago. Though, I guess it's possible that the falling away started beginning 2000 years ago, except it gets worse in the end of this age.

The only thing I'm mainly in disagreement with you about is verse 7.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

We have to interpret this according to what the words mean in the Greek.

Let's start with the last word in verse 7, way. The Greek word is mesos
mes'-os
from meta - meta 3326; middle (as an adjective or (neuter) noun):--among, X before them, between, + forth, mid(-day, -night), midst, way.


Here are all the passages that same Greek word is used. Can you find in any of these passages where it is being used in the sense you are taking it to mean in verse 7?


Rev 7:17


Matt 25:6, Acts 26:13


John 1:26, Acts 1:18


Matt 10:16, Matt 14:6, Matt 18:2, Matt 18:20, Mark 6:47, Mark 9:36, Luke 2:46, Luke 8:7, Luke 10:3, Luke 21:21, Luke 22:27, Luke 22:55, Luke 22:55, Luke 24:36, John 8:3, John 8:9, Acts 1:15, Acts 2:22, Acts 4:7, Acts 17:22, Acts 27:21, Php 2:15, 1 Th 2:7, Heb 2:12, Rev 1:13, Rev 2:1, Rev 2:7, Rev 4:6, Rev 5:6, Rev 5:6, Rev 6:6, Rev 22:2

Unfortunately, as pertaining to taken in verse 7, the Greek word being ginomai, that same Greek word is used in hundreds of passages, therefore, not as easy to determine how it's used elsewhere, while mesos wouldn't be as difficult to determine since that Greek word is only involving a handful of verses compared to ginomai.

And if we factor in verse 6 first, what should we be concluding, in regards to--now they know what witholdeth? Something Paul already addressed earlier? Or something he never addressed earlier?

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


We also have to keep in mind that 'withholdeth' in verse 6 and 'letteth' in verse 7, these are the same Greek word. And that before we even get to verse 7 Paul already tells them-- And now ye know what withholdeth.

parousia70 said:

I understand this is your personal opinion.
I happen to disagree.

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Really?

In fact, what has any of the additional versions brought except more confusion, constant arguing about Hebrew and Greek, and more doubts with every passing debate?

Besides, the fact is, the KJV Bible translation we had for the last 400 years was completely sufficient to the task, and no new version was either necessary or desirable. And almost all new versions use inferior texts, so exactly how could it bring more clarity? We didn't need a new translation or new version of the Bible anymore than we needed a hole in the head! What we needed was to teach people that the knowledge of the Bible is spiritually discerned by careful and sound exegesis. We are never going to get any deeper understanding of what God is saying by "modernizing" or changing words, but by a change of mind and a change of spirit. Selah!

Some of the main reasons given for needing new translations are:

1. The KJV has some errors in translation.
2. The KJV rests on an inferior and inadequate textual base.
3. The KJV uses many poetic and archaic words
4. Newer versions bring a greater understanding of God's word.

The response to these nonsenses are:

1. The KJV does have some errors in translation. The fact is, ALL of the new versions have some errors of translations. ALL of them! What did that fix? We have Greek and Hebrew, so no new translation was necessary. Scratch reason number one! Move on!

2. The KJV rests on an inferior and inadequate textual base. Blatantly False! The KJV is translated from the superior Hebrew and Greek text, not from the text of Latin translation as most all newer versions use. And any real expert in these languages will tell you that oldest does not mean the best or most accurate.

3. The KJV uses many poetic and archaic words that we don't understand. Many? No. Some, Yes. It has some old English words which may not be readily understood. However, these are all very easily understood with "MINIMAL" effort. and besides, How is anyone to even "BEGIN" to study the deeper meanings of scriptures carefully if they are so confused by a few old words? For crying out loud, get a dictionary! But it's just an excuse anyway, and the PROOF is that there are words equally hard to understand in the NIV. Here are just some of the words found in the so-called "easy to read" NIV: "parapet, rue, odious, abashed, gecko, goiim, abutted, siegeworks, rend, algum, awl, bier, carnelian, cistern, debauchery, ephod, epicurean, gadfly, gauntness, myrtles, oracles, parchments, pinions, portent, poultice, Praetorium, ramparts, rawboned, sinews, etc., etc., etc."

LOL ..nuff said!

Like I said, the excuses are all smoke and mirrors to get you to buy the new versions. No... go get a dictionary, and stop with the lame excuses about hard-to-understand words. As for poetic, that's a non-issue. I like how the KJV sounds. And at any rate, it accounts for nothing in understanding.

4. Newer versions bring a greater understanding of God's word. BIBLICALLY FALSE! Not one of these versions has brought a greater understanding of God's word. Because understanding doesn't come from words, it comes from the Spirit. It doesn't matter how many people parrot the line about the NIV, ESV, and it's so-called clearer language, that is nonsense. It is adulterated language, but not clearer. The Bible was not divinely inspired to be clear. God could have had it written so that even a 6 year old could understand it, but He didn't. But a man in his egotistical vanity thinks he can help people understand what God cannot by changing words or omit words and verses. All is vanity saith the Preacher. OOPS, there goes ye ole English again! I guess "All is vanity the preacher says" will make people understand better. Nonsense! But let me get off my soap box before I set off a storm of Greek and Hebrew experts denouncing my ignorance of the issue and how the NIV/ESV is a blessing.

5thKingdom said:

Mat 24:33-34
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, [all the signs He just prophesied]
know that it [His Return] is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation [of the Last Saints]
shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

You only need to ask yourself WHO "shall see ALL these things"?

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I guess James didn't get that memo then?

James 5:8-9
8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

As you agree, Jesus said His coming would only be "near and at the door" AFTER all the signs were seen. NOT BEFORE.

Surely James was aware of this fact, however James, writing under the infallible inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the late 50's AD, Infallibly claims that Jesus' coming was, at that time, "near and at the doors". Which is a reality that you agree, and James must have known, could not be true UNTIL AFTER all the signs were seen.

Was James mistaken?
Was James lying?

How could James have gotten it so wrong?

TribulationSigns said:

Hello, @sovereigngrace and @Spiritual Jew,

Just wanted you guys to know that I am back!

TribulationSigns.

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Yeaaahhhh! Welcome back!!!!

5thKingdom said:

Mat 24:33-34
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, [all the signs He just prophesied]
know that it [His Return] is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation [of the Last Saints]
shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

You only need to ask yourself WHO "shall see ALL these things"?

parousia70 said:

I guess James didn't get that memo then?

James 5:8-9
8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

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Sir, if you think James 5:8-9 is talking about the Great Tribulation AFTER the Last Saints is "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]
then you are mistaken because it is talking Great Commission which ENDS when the Last Saint is "sealed"

You do not understand the CONTEXT at all.
When you do not understand the context of a passage
you have no hope of understanding the MEANING of that passage.


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