unconditional love

[Jesus4Life777]

I'm a non-christian.
It would be great to have unconditional love from god. Alas I will never believe in him unless he speaks to me himself (and I know it's not just a human claiming to be god or a speaker in behalf of god).

As an agnostic I do not have unconditional love from a savior.
I do not have a god to "save me".

But this is not bad news because I can still find pretty close to unconditional love from other people (even if people are not perfect... heck they can even die on you). In the great big experience of life, I can find love powerful enough to make me motivated to write my own book. I am 26 years old and I have never had a girlfriend. I believe that just having someone I love by my side would allow me to channel that loving power into me creating things I have always wanted.

I believe that in love and marriage I am in debt to my lover. In debt to returning the love. Giving back that "unconditional love" that my lover gives to me.

Some people don't need as much motivation.. they are born more inclined and capable of creating great things. Some people are born with busy-beaver traits (so-to-speak), and find it much easier to work on writing a book (for instance) than other people.

Finally, I also believe in redemption.

there is a zen quote... I'll try my best to write it as I remember

apprentice: "the earth owes me since I was born to it"
master: "I owe the earth since I was born to it"

okay - what sort of conversation can we start about unconditional love? or do you have any questions about things I mentioned in the post like "why don't you....?"

 

[2 King]

Interesting, I remember hearing you aren't well versed in the Gospels, so I suppose it would be wrong of me to post the story of the Prodigal Son.

In case you haven't read it, here is is:

Luke 15:11-32
11Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.

13"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.
17"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
21"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.[a]'
22"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. 24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.
25"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'
28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!' 31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "

 

[Jesus4Life777]

I'm sure I would like to have a debate with you or even let you try to convert me, but I don't know how to relate those verses to unconditional love.

 

[wlajoie74]

Have you read The Third Jesus by Deepak Chopra?

 

[psalms 91]

Unconditional love is hard for any of us to grasp but the fact that by His word we know that God created and loved us enough to want to make a way for us to spend eternity with Him is awesome! We have the law that by knowing it says that we all si9n and deserve death but because God is a loving and caring God He provided a sacrifice for us through Jesus who came to earth and was born a man. He showed us the love of God in all that He did while here through healing and providing, deliverance, mercy and grace, all these things Jesus showed while here and then He died for us sinless not deserving of death just so we could be reconciled with God, what a perfect example of unconditional love. You ask that God speak to you and I tell you that God speaks all the time, we just are not in tune with Him most times but He does speak and if you pray and concentrate you will hear Him. Remember that spiritual things miust be discerned spiritually as worldly things by flesh so dont look in the flesh but rather open up to the spiritual side of yourself. God also speaks through nature and creatures, the wonder and complexity of our own bodies, so many things that are wonderous and even unexplainable in this world. Do you really think thta all this complexity in life is just chance? I think not. The miracle of birth, the beauty of a sunset, the balance of the earth with the rest of the universe.

 

[psalms 91]

I'm sure I would like to have a debate with you or even let you try to convert me, but I don't know how to relate those verses to unconditional love.

In this story or parable if you will God is represented by the father and the sinner by the prodigal son. Think about this father waiting and waitingh allowing his sons free will to run its course and then greeting and welcoming back this son who deserved nothing but was given everything. By the way the elder son reminds me much of the church that sits back and says look what they have done, how can they be saved. Thank Gd for a loving forgiving God that rains mercy and grace upion us with unconditional love

 

[Jesus4Life777]

"Do you really think that all this complexity in life is just chance? I think not. The miracle of birth, the beauty of a sunset, the balance of the earth with the rest of the universe."

Do I think a god could have created the universe? - yes I believe a god could have done this. I also believe the universe could largely be just a long chain of scientific events and randomness.

Do I think god is doing things everyday, helping people or giving them signs? I don't know. I don't even know if he exists.

Do I believe that the god that I think may supposedly exist may actually be the Christian God? Well this is much less likely for me since I don't believe in tons of stuff in the Christian books like the resurrection of Jesus, talking snakes, etc.

My god would be much more mysterious than the Christian God since I know nothing about him and there is nothing written about him (if he exists).

Does that answer your question?

 

[psalms 91]

To some extent, as I am sure that these are true doubts and feelings. Does God help people everyday, of course. Is it as they want helped, not usually. He can be your provider, your healer, all the things that people say He doesnt do and all that He requires is your love and faith, obedience. I ask you if this is all chance what would be the odds of this happening so perfectly? I bet its some number that you would laugh at if it was anything other than challenging your beliefs. I see purpose and direction and I havent even mentioned the pprophecies that predict so many things that have come true. Jesus fulfilled hundreds of prophecies in ecactly the mnanner they said and the odds of that? I wont even get into the Jewishness of the temple and the timingh of His crucifixtion and all the rest in terms of what He did and the order in which it all came about. It is hard to trust and I know this but you wont be disappointed if you trust God. Ju8st read the manualk, the bible, so that you will understand how He operates and what to be guided by when you ask for things. To many get mad when they ask and dont recieve because they dont understand how God works or they pray through their own desires for things that would either take them away from God or hurt them. God is all that He claims to be and more but we must get to know Himas a bride gets to know her husband and how to talk, and ask, and respind to him.

 

[2 King]

I'm sure I would like to have a debate with you or even let you try to convert me, but I don't know how to relate those verses to unconditional love.

Bill pretty much gave you an accurate inerpretation of the verses.

By the way, I can't convert you, I can only tell you things, ultimately it's Holy Ghost's job to convict you.

 

[freeport]

I'm a non-christian.
It would be great to have unconditional love from god. Alas I will never believe in him unless he speaks to me himself (and I know it's not just a human claiming to be god or a speaker in behalf of god).

As an agnostic I do not have unconditional love from a savior.
I do not have a god to "save me".

But this is not bad news because I can still find pretty close to unconditional love from other people (even if people are not perfect... heck they can even die on you). In the great big experience of life, I can find love powerful enough to make me motivated to write my own book. I am 26 years old and I have never had a girlfriend. I believe that just having someone I love by my side would allow me to channel that loving power into me creating things I have always wanted.

I believe that in love and marriage I am in debt to my lover. In debt to returning the love. Giving back that "unconditional love" that my lover gives to me.

Some people don't need as much motivation.. they are born more inclined and capable of creating great things. Some people are born with busy-beaver traits (so-to-speak), and find it much easier to work on writing a book (for instance) than other people.

Finally, I also believe in redemption.

there is a zen quote... I'll try my best to write it as I remember

apprentice: "the earth owes me since I was born to it"
master: "I owe the earth since I was born to it"

okay - what sort of conversation can we start about unconditional love? or do you have any questions about things I mentioned in the post like "why don't you....?"

Most people in America are Christians, so I am not surprised you find unconditional love here.

That said, do they really? There is a lot of strife here. People ask you to play roles and play by their rules and if you just be yourself and get out of the game of their little groups they will persecute you severely for it.

You have to tow the line with the little groups... be they even some massive religion, be they some small church, be they some subculture, be they members of a political party. It doesn't matter. You want to join them, you better get ready to learn their rules, their beliefs, and wear their clothes. And if you have an independent idea: look out! You get stoned and told to 'get back in line'.

Some who are not Christian see Christians as doing this. A lot who are very religious do this worse of all. But, "religious" is just a word and I see people on all corners doing this.

As for me, I think what Jesus said and did is right and awesome and completely agree with all of it.

He is the One who exposed these hypocrisies. He is the One who said "do not judge" and "love your enemies". He is the One who showed us Love is the way and God is Love. He is the one who explained why bad things happen to us.

He is the one who taught us forgiveness.

I wouldn't say Buddhism (as it was, anyway) or Zen and such are far off. Many Christian churches are far off moreso then those philosophies. But, then, they did really know or hear Christianity and did not hear Jesus literally speak.

Christianity is not to be judged because of some representatives of it, it is to be taken by what Scripture says.

I can't say how many people teach a Pharisee "Jesus" that is not Jesus at all. The opposite, obviously. Or who claim "What Would Jesus Do", and then act like a Pharisee.

Obviously, Jesus is not like that. But, did He speak so many words or do so many things that people have some excuse for being confused? No.

That the world knows Jesus is the Son of God and does not follow Him, that is condemnation. But, what of it to you? Do you expect everyone to be perfect and absolutely pure?

As for unconditional love: my door is always open. I am just myself. I hang out with people from all areas of life. I let them make their own decisions if they want to hang out with me. And I feel sorry for them when they close that door, but that is just temporary. It is what people do. They are cold hearted and love to close out people forever.

I never fail to forgive my friends. I don't care what they have said about me or done to me. And anyone is my friend if they count me as a friend. True friends accept each other for who they are.

We do not all have the same taste in music or television or clothes or politics or anything else. But, what a boring world that would be if everyone was the same!

This does not mean the world is without impurity right now. Far from it. But, so are children not as their parents. They play their games and have their illusions. They throw temper tantrums. Teenagers can get very bad. But, when they grow up and see they can stand on their own two feet: then they reconcile with their parents, if those parents were always good.

God is our true Parent, and He is always good. He is Love.

Any other "god" is a lie.

True love is beyond romantic love, love of friends, love of children and parents, of people... of things... yet these things do speak of that true, spiritual love -- just as all of creation is but full of metaphors speaking of the Truth about the Eternal Being, Our Heavenly Father... who is from Everlasting to Everlasting.

 

[hlaltimus]

You seem to prefer to believe more in a conditional love, as you may find little if any basis for an unconditional love in your experience, and that is not surprising in an age where "...because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold" Matt. 24:12 Well, if you were to insist in adhering to a position of conditional love only, then you may yet believe in the God of the bible as His love is quite conditional, but the conditions of that love were paid for by Christ and not by us, so it may be considered to be conditional upon the part of Christ for the purchase of redemption. For the application of that redemption though, it is both unconditional and conditional, and this claim isn't nearly as confusing as it appears to be at first.

Unconditional love:
1- There aren't any babies or little children in hell, as they are all universally and involuntarily covered by the children's atonement of Christ, so this act of pardoning love is conditional only upon the Redeemer, but entirely unconditional upon the infant or little child. Some make this infant's salvation conditional upon the baptism of the child by the parents, but I personally don't buy it for a moment, and there are reasons why that position can't possibly be true that we won't get into.

2- Regeneration of adults. Jesus said that we had to be "born again" or "born from above", as the NAB translates it in John ch. 3. This is the best rendering of the two I think as He then compared this rebirth to "the wind", and who ever tells the wind when to blow??? Atmospheric wind is unconditional generally speaking, and really so is natural conception for that matter as who ever willed themselves to be conceived? The wind that sails down upon us from the heavenlies, and the conception of an infant are both alike unconditonal in one sense, and this Christ uses to illustrate the miracle of regeneration or the renewing of the spiritual capacity to receive a saving work of the Holy Spirit. Without this sovereign act of regenertion by God, a person will unfortunately be receiving any future work of conviction by the Holy Spirit, as new wine into an old wineskin, and that mis-match is doomed to failure. Regeneration is sovereign and unconditional and "no man can come to me unless it is given him of the Father", but there are those who disagree.

Conditional:
The reception of the salvation of pardon and justification is indeed conditional, the conditions for both being saving faith, and that saving faith itself waiting upon the condition of repentance. Repentance is then the condition for saving faith, and saving faith is the condition for both pardon and justification. Now both saving faith and repentance are declared to be "gifts" of God, but even so, the exercise of the gift of repentance and the gift of faith is still a condition that an applicant must meet, even though the author or source of those gracious gifts was God. The sinner must repent and he/she must believe, and those are certainly conditions to be met or they will never personally know the filial love of God as His restored children. However, these redeemed sinners are still only receiving access to both the penal and preceptive righteousness of Christ, which redemptive and substitutionary righteousness was purchased solely by Him for the salvation of sinners, entirely independant of our agency. So even then, salvation for us adults is unconditional as far as the purchase of redemption was concerned, and conditional as far as the application of redemption is concerned.

God has so arranged for loving reconciliation into His heavenly family in such a way that is unconditional enough so that we can never view ourselves as being our own saviors, yet still conditional enough to qualify us as being the kind of people whom He would wish to embrace into His eternal love. A person who is truly willing to repent and believe is the very kind of person who would be suitable for restoration into the love of God's family, and yet they could never boast of this reconciliation themselves as they still know that all of the groundwork for their salvation was paid for by another graciously and unconditional upon their own agency. It all works out in balance.