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Unchristian

Byfaithalone1

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I've been reading a book titled Unchristian by David Kinnaman. I'm not really recommending it. It's a book written by the president of The Barna Group and it includes lots of statistics. The stats can be a dry read.

Even so, I was fascinated by some of the ways non-Christians perceive Christians. According to the author, Non-Christians perceive that Christians are hypocritical, insensitive, judgmental, anti-homosexual and predatory (among other things). These perceptions are made even more interesting by the fact that the majority of those surveyed indicated a history of church attendance.

Q: Are any of these criticisms valid?

BFA
 

Restin

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I've been reading a book titled Unchristian by David Kinnaman. I'm not really recommending it. It's a book written by the president of The Barna Group and it includes lots of statistics. The stats can be a dry read.

Even so, I was fascinated by some of the ways non-Christians perceive Christians. According to the author, Non-Christians perceive that Christians are hypocritical, insensitive, judgmental, anti-homosexual and predatory (among other things). These perceptions are made even more interesting by the fact that the majority of those surveyed indicated a history of church attendance.

Q: Are any of these criticisms valid?

BFA

Criticisms valid
....? Yes, Christians (including myself) tend to live with a 'holier than thou' attitude. Once that disposition is revealed to us, we try to correct like the person who cleaned and swept the house...later to find that 7 other demons have come to take the place of the first demon that was cast out.

Restin
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Criticisms valid....? Yes, Christians (including myself) tend to live with a 'holier than thou' attitude. Once that disposition is revealed to us, we try to correct like the person who cleaned and swept the house...later to find that 7 other demons have come to take the place of the first demon that was cast out.

Restin

Sad, but true. The book has been rather enlightening for me. For example, I had never before seen myself as "predatory." This is a challenging concept to chew on.

BFA
 
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Restin

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The book has been rather enlightening for me. For example, I had never before seen myself as "predatory." This is a challenging concept to chew on.

BFA

Beyond statistics, does this 'book' give any reason as to 'why' professed Christians (especially church goers) appear this way...?

The scripture says 'Knowledge puffs up' (makes arrogant). Think about all the knowledge given to the people of God....from art and craftsmanship, to government and war - in Moses time. Can you imagine the ability to make a candlestick with 7 candles all from one wedge of gold? Not to mention the orderliness with which camped in the desert for 40 years.

God gave Solomon much knowledge, more than all his contemporaries, to the point that all the world sought his advice. Even today the world's greatest controversy centers around the temple mount, and ownership of the piece of real estate God gave to Israel.

Yes...Something to 'chew on'...Restin
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Beyond statistics, does this 'book' give any reason as to 'why' professed Christians (especially church goers) appear this way...?

The theory--as I understand it--is that Christians are not really interested in people. Rather, they are interested in numbers. The goal of individual Christians is to meet as many unbelievers as possible and hand them a Get Out of Jail Free card. Once this transaction occurs, the Christian moves on to stalk another unbeliever.

The book gets into differences between generations. It indicates that mosaics are very relational and loyal. It implies that mosaics are wary of people with an agenda.

BFA
 
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StormyOne

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The theory--as I understand it--is that Christians are not really interested in people. Rather, they are interested in numbers. The goal of individual Christians is to meet as many unbelievers as possible and hand them a Get Out of Jail Free card. Once this transaction occurs, the Christian moves on to stalk another unbeliever.

The book gets into differences between generations. It indicates that mosaics are very relational and loyal. It implies that mosaics are wary of people with an agenda.

BFA

right, many christians, especially in those denominations who are strong advocates of proselytizing, see other people who either need to accept the message being preached, or prepare to burn in hell... while I think the directive is to make disciples, most christians do not have that mindset....
 
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BigRedBus

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.....I was fascinated by some of the ways non-Christians perceive Christians. According to the author, Non-Christians perceive that Christians are hypocritical, insensitive, judgmental, anti-homosexual and predatory (among other things). These perceptions are made even more interesting by the fact that the majority of those surveyed indicated a history of church attendance.

Q: Are any of these criticisms valid?

BFA

I am sorry to say that I have noticed these traits more within the SDA Church than I did in other denominations. And yes, I would regard these criticisms as valid in a more general sense. It's a mindset we really have to work on as SDAs -- my initial impressions were that (?the more vocal?) SDAs were a dreadfully smug, self righteous, falsely pious group. I still have this opinion, after several years within the church.

Predatory -- yes, certainly. Think about it. What gave 18th and 19th century Europeans the right to travel the world, imposing their religion on people who already had a perfectly good one of their own? It was religious imperialism on a huge scale. And Christians still do it now, often without much regard for the well being or safety of their new followers.
 
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SevenStars

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Perhaps we're focusing too heavily on the Christians who behave in this way. I know A LOT of Christians that are none of those things. They are every bit the genuine, sensitive, non-judgmental, tolerant and compassionate Christian, among other things...AND they attend church. But you have to open your eyes to them. They're there but they won't be the ones hitting you over the head with a picket sign as you pass them on the sidewalk. They won't be the ones, often times, posting on forums or arguing the point, possibly because they are busy being genuine, sensitive, non-judgmental, tolerant and compassionate in their day-to-day life.

If we choose to look for UN-christians, we'll find them. If we choose to read about them and dwell on them we will find them.


But what we should remain aware of is Christ as our example, perfect example, of Christianity. If someone is not behaving as Christ would then you can simply put them aside as misrepresentives and move on. No need to dwell on them and miss our own opportunity to be a Great Christian because we were too busy pinpointing the faults of those that may be misguided but trying just the same.

The real question may be which version of Christian are we? And then not worry about the rest.

The unfortunate reason as to why NON-christians view Christians as largely UN-Christian is an explanation that would make non-christians uncomfortable.

No one likes to have their flaws or shortcomings brought to their attention either subconsciously or consciously. what's the best way to avoid that? maybe call the person judgmental or predatory and move on.

But maybe it's the lens we're choosing to look at those people through.

Judgmental can simply be someone living with high standards, who isn't afraid to do so (and I challenge any one to claim we shouldn't live with high, if not the highest, standards we can.)

Predatory can also be someone who cares a lot...perhaps to a fault... to the point where they are willing to "stalk" someone's salvation (but if time is short that may not be the worst trait to have.)

Just one person's thoughts...
 
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BigRedBus

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Just one person's thoughts...

...and thank you for these thoughts. Welcome to the forum, by the way.

Yes, you are right. There is a silent majority that just gets on with quietly living a Christian life, you'd probably never even spot them.

But the vocal minority is bigger and louder in some denominations than it is in others. SDA culture accommodates this minority far too well in my view, and it does too little to acknowledge the others.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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No one likes to have their flaws or shortcomings brought to their attention either subconsciously or consciously. what's the best way to avoid that? maybe call the person judgmental or predatory and move on. Judgmental can simply be someone living with high standards, who isn't afraid to do so (and I challenge any one to claim we shouldn't live with high, if not the highest, standards we can.)

Is that our job? To point out the flaws and shortcomings of others--either subconsciously or consciously?

Perhaps we're focusing too heavily on the Christians who behave in this way. I know A LOT of Christians that are none of those things. They are every bit the genuine, sensitive, non-judgmental, tolerant and compassionate Christian, among other things...AND they attend church.

Of course, we're talking in generalities. I could never begin to pigeon hole the slice of the world that is your immediate reality. I've noticed that, in my slice of the world, some Christians are far too quick to politicize an issue that has no face or identity; some Christians are far too focused on numbers and not focused enough of shaping disciples; and that some Christians have far too little access to ideas that differ from their own. This may be a problem within SDAism, but it certainly is not limited to SDAism!

I know this seems like bride bashing, but I don't see it that way. I believe the fellowship of believers is a valuable thing, but I also believe that our fellowship can at times be unhealthy. It's valuable to discuss that.

But you have to open your eyes to them. They're there but they won't be the ones hitting you over the head with a picket sign as you pass them on the sidewalk. They won't be the ones, often times, posting on forums or arguing the point, possibly because they are busy being genuine, sensitive, non-judgmental, tolerant and compassionate in their day-to-day life. If we choose to look for UN-christians, we'll find them. If we choose to read about them and dwell on them we will find them. If someone is not behaving as Christ would then you can simply put them aside as misrepresentives and move on. No need to dwell on them and miss our own opportunity to be a Great Christian because we were too busy pinpointing the faults of those that may be misguided but trying just the same.

For better or worse, vocal Christians are the ones that unbelievers see. They aren't so easily swept under the rug.

But what we should remain aware of is Christ as our example, perfect example, of Christianity.

I agree.

The real question may be which version of Christian are we?

This is a valuable question.

The unfortunate reason as to why NON-christians view Christians as largely UN-Christian is an explanation that would make non-christians uncomfortable.

If our explanation does not also make Christians uncomfortable, then we aren't looking at the full reality of the situation.

Predatory can also be someone who cares a lot...perhaps to a fault... to the point where they are willing to "stalk" someone's salvation (but if time is short that may not be the worst trait to have.)

I disagree. If I am seen as predatory, I've likely caused damage. I cannot build relationships or discipleship when my behavior is destructive.

BFA
 
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SevenStars

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...and thank you for these thoughts. Welcome to the forum, by the way.

Yes, you are right. There is a silent majority that just gets on with quietly living a Christian life, you'd probably never even spot them.

But the vocal minority is bigger and louder in some denominations than it is in others. SDA culture accommodates this minority far too well in my view, and it does too little to acknowledge the others.

Thank you BigRedBus! Glad to be here :wave:

Yes, every culutre deals with an unpleasent minority of their own but some religious cultures accomodate a minority that is absoluletly unforgivable.

Perhaps SDA's are the ones with the least to be ashamed of. Mislabled and misunderstood would be a better postition to be in compared to say ... the out-and out corruption some denominations are dealing with.

But what if we forget the religious lables (denominations) that seperate so many wonderful CHRIST-ians and just behave as Christ's followers. How do we conduct ourselves in a way that makes us more noticible to non-christians? Without compromising Christs' standards AND without making anyone feel uncomfortable, preyed upon or judged. :confused:

It's a tall order but I'm excited to be amongst fellow believers so we can brainstorm some solutions!

Talk soon,
SevenStars
 
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SevenStars

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Hi Byfaithalone!

Is that our job? To point out the flaws and shortcomings of others--either subconsciously or consciously?
Definitely not the job. But maybe one of the side-effects of living a certain way. There are numerous examples of others feeling judged simply because someone else in the room ISN'T doing what they're doing. Human nature seems to feel easily judged.
Of course, we're talking in generalities. I could never begin to pigeon hole the slice of the world that is your immediate reality. I've noticed that, in my slice of the world, some Christians are far too quick to politicize an issue that has no face or identity; some Christians are far too focused on numbers and not focused enough of shaping disciples; and that some Christians have far too little access to ideas that differ from their own. This may be a problem within SDAism, but it certainly is not limited to SDAism!
But what constitutes our immediate reality? Is it the lenses we put on everyday before we get out of bed? Is it whether or glass gets filled halfway or is left half empty? I suspect "immediate reality" is really more about our perception rather then the big picture.
some Christians are far too focused on numbers and not focused enough of shaping disciples;
Do you believe we should be making disciples? Don't get me wrong, I DO believe in encouraging people to be disciples of Christ (not of a denomination) ... just curious as to where you stand and your thoughts on how to accomplish the shaping of disciples if you believe we should be?
and that some Christians have far too little access to ideas that differ from their own. This may be a problem within SDAism, but it certainly is not limited to SDAism!
YES, agreed! That is a death nail to ANY person, the lack of ideas that differ from their own. But so many Christians have such limited knowledge of either their own denomination, anyone else’s denomination OR even just the Bible that we certainly cannot pinpoint SDA's here. In fact I've found a broader knowledge of other "options" (and the Bible in general) in SDAism then in other denominations (perhaps due to the schooling most SDA's come through which will often include a class on world religion.)
I know this seems like bride bashing, but I don't see it that way. I believe the fellowship of believers is a valuable thing, but I also believe that our fellowship can at times be unhealthy. It's valuable to discuss that.
Not bride bashing to me :) Just thoughts you're having. God said "come let us reason together"
For better or worse, vocal Christians are the ones that unbelievers see. They aren't so easily swept under the rug.
Unfortunate but true. So how do we change that? (See question to BigRedBus)
If our explanation does not also make Christians uncomfortable, then we aren't looking at the full reality of the situation.

Because something makes either or BOTH parties uncomfortable doesn't mean it should be tossed out. I feel the explanation DOES make a sincere Christian uncomfortable. No one, truly interested in another, likes to make them uncomfortable, but isn't eternal life more important?

Let me clarify here that I don't believe anything we DO earns us eternal life...that's a gift and is by faith alone just as your moniker says. BUT there is a saying 'We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.' -ML. So having received that gift ... well, you can't serve two masters. So I do believe it will show if you've accepted Christ and will manifest itself as it did in Jesus' life.

I disagree. If I am seen as predatory, I've likely caused damage. I cannot build relationships or discipleship when my behavior is destructive.
Great point! So call it predatory, call it over-caring, the end result is people are turned off. So what do we do? How do we draw disciples to Christ without getting swept under the rug!:confused:

Talk soon BFA
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Definitely not the job. But maybe one of the side-effects of living a certain way. There are numerous examples of others feeling judged simply because someone else in the room ISN'T doing what they're doing. Human nature seems to feel easily judged.
OK. I hear what you're saying and I agree with you. However, I'm a little reluctant to let all of us off the hook so easily. I sense that the perceived judgment too often stems from something active rather than something passive.

Do you believe we should be making disciples? Don't get me wrong, I DO believe in encouraging people to be disciples of Christ (not of a denomination) ... just curious as to where you stand and your thoughts on how to accomplish the shaping of disciples if you believe we should be?
Yes, I do. However, too many corners of modern Christianity seem to be unmotivated in this direction. As a Christian, I am a part of this problem.

YES, agreed! That is a death nail to ANY person, the lack of ideas that differ from their own. But so many Christians have such limited knowledge of either their own denomination, anyone else’s denomination OR even just the Bible that we certainly cannot pinpoint SDA's here. In fact I've found a broader knowledge of other "options" (and the Bible in general) in SDAism then in other denominations (perhaps due to the schooling most SDA's come through which will often include a class on world religion.)
I haven't found that to be true in the corner of SDAism with which I'm most familiar, but I will say that I've found a disturbing amount of closed mindedness throughout various aspects of Christianity. The SDAism with which I am familiar is plagued with problems that run much deeper than being mislabeled and misunderstood. However, I've found that SDAism does not have a corner on the market when it comes to dysfunction.

Because something makes either or BOTH parties uncomfortable doesn't mean it should be tossed out. I feel the explanation DOES make a sincere Christian uncomfortable. No one, truly interested in another, likes to make them uncomfortable, but isn't eternal life more important?
I think it's valuable to understand how Christians are perceived. These perceptions aren't easy for Christians to hear, but I suspect they are based on something quite real. This isn't about compromising truth. It's about understanding the unintended things we're doing in the name of truth.

Let me clarify here that I don't believe anything we DO earns us eternal life...that's a gift and is by faith alone just as your moniker says. BUT there is a saying 'We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.' -ML. So having received that gift ... well, you can't serve two masters. So I do believe it will show if you've accepted Christ and will manifest itself as it did in Jesus' life.
My name is merely that, a name. It was coined many years ago when I began posting in online forums. However, I will say that, if salvation is based on something other than grace through faith, Christ died for nothing. We may already agree on this point.

Great point! So call it predatory, call it over-caring, the end result is people are turned off. So what do we do? How do we draw disciples to Christ without getting swept under the rug!:confused:
We start by getting very real with ourselves about our own lifelong addiction to sin. This reality check will make us very aware of the beam that is in our own eye and it will motivate us to be compassionate toward others whose transgressions pale in comparison with our own (at least in our own minds). Rather than worrying about whether our goodness will cause others to feel judged, we will realize that--apart from Jesus Christ--there is no goodness in us. Out of gratitude for that which we know we do not deserve, we will be moved to demonstrate genuine love, the kind of love that we've been shown despite the mess we've made. When we look at a homosexual, we won't love the sinner and hate the sin. Instead, we will merely love the sinner as we love ourselves. We will not be focused on the sin of another. When we look at an addict, we will see a person beloved by God rather than a dreadful sinner. Rather than preaching sermons on how we can become better people, we will preach sermons on the ways in which God makes us new. Our whole outlook on humanity will be an outgrowth of the grace and mercy that we've been shown.

I think the answer is also found in befriending those who look, sound, smell and talk very differently than we do. It's amazing how many blind spots are revealed when we take these kinds of risks.

BFA
 
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SevenStars

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I think it's valuable to understand how Christians are perceived. These perceptions aren't easy for Christians to hear, but I suspect they are based on something quite real. This isn't about compromising truth. It's about understanding the unintended things we're doing in the name of truth.

True. Did the author have any solutions as to how Christians could come across better?

We start by getting very real with ourselves about our own lifelong addiction to sin.

Rather than preaching sermons on how we can become better people, we will preach sermons on the ways in which God makes us new. Our whole outlook on humanity will be an outgrowth of the grace and mercy that we've been shown.

yes, perhaps there isn't more to do once we've come to this point. We just walk the walk and love others because that really was the ONLY command we were given regarding our interactions with others. The rest is up to the Holy Spirit.

I think the answer is also found in befriending those who look, sound, smell and talk very differently than we do.

That's it! Befriend. Jesus did it...now it's our turn.

Excellent thoughts...
 
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Joe67

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Luke 16:8-9
8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. KJV

Joe
 
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SevenStars

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Luke 16:8-9
8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. KJV

Joe

Hi Joe67,

that's one way of looking at it ... what shall we do then with Jude 1:23?

23 snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
 
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ricker

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I've been reading a book titled Unchristian by David Kinnaman. I'm not really recommending it. It's a book written by the president of The Barna Group and it includes lots of statistics. The stats can be a dry read.

Even so, I was fascinated by some of the ways non-Christians perceive Christians. According to the author, Non-Christians perceive that Christians are hypocritical, insensitive, judgmental, anti-homosexual and predatory (among other things). These perceptions are made even more interesting by the fact that the majority of those surveyed indicated a history of church attendance.

Q: Are any of these criticisms valid?

BFA

I'm sure the criticisms are valid at some level.

I have a feeling many non-Christians percieve us in a way that suits themselves personally. In my experience many "unchurched" are trying to hold self described Christians to an almost impossible standard to discredit Christianity and give themselves an excuse to sleep in on Sundays (Saturdays). I know that sounds cynical, but I swear I commonly I see and hear it in my workplace and elsewhere.

I don't think it is always intentional, but we are held to almost impossible standards by some. Non-Christians seem to have ideas about what we should be that have a lot more to do with the law than grace.


Edit to add: It's like when I am in the shop at work with unbelievers. I don't use vulgar language or look at their crude jokes or whatever on their cell phones or go out drinking with them after work, so they think that I think I'm better than they are. But if I would act and talk just like them, they would say I'm a hypocrite. When I invite them to Bible study or church, they probably feel as if I am being a predator or judgemental or something.

That said, I am impressed that we are under a huge obligation to live lives of love and compassion and morality as led by the Spirit. Our behaviour is scrutinized by those around us, fairly or unfairly, and we are Christ's ambassadors here. I also know I am a worse sinner than anyone, and need God's grace always.
 
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Joe67

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Hi Joe67,

that's one way of looking at it ... what shall we do then with Jude 1:23?

23 snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
SS,

Jesus' teachings are the way. All other teachings are given to prepare our hearts and minds for his words. Next to Jesus' teachings are the apostolic teachings, then the prophetic witnesses, then the teachers of law. Teachers of law are useful if they do not intrude into things which they have not seen, vainly puffed up in their fleshly minds, contending concerning things which they do not understand. First knowledge, then wisdom, then understanding. Ears to hear, eyes to see, and then a heart to understand.

It pleased the Father that in Jesus all fullness should dwell. Of his grace we all receive our portion of faith and grace for each day. This is true for the apostolic witness. The apostles were given a portion of faith and grace and the knew in part and prophesied in part. We need all of the apostolic witness that the Lord has preserved for us, to lead us to the fullness that is in Jesus; his wisdom, his righteousness, his sanctification, his redemption; made unto us, of God the Father, in Christ Jesus.

Unto us a son is given, unto us a child is born. "You are my son, this day I have begotten you." "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchisedec." "A spirit does not have flesh and bones such as I have."

Joe
 
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Byfaithalone1

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I have a feeling many non-Christians percieve us in a way that suits themselves personally. In my experience many "unchurched" are trying to hold self described Christians to an almost impossible standard to discredit Christianity and give themselves an excuse to sleep in on Sundays (Saturdays). I know that sounds cynical, but I swear I commonly I see and hear it in my workplace and elsewhere.

I don't think it is always intentional, but we are held to almost impossible standards by some. Non-Christians seem to have ideas about what we should be that have a lot more to do with the law than grace.

Edit to add: It's like when I am in the shop at work with unbelievers. I don't use vulgar language or look at their crude jokes or whatever on their cell phones or go out drinking with them after work, so they think that I think I'm better than they are. But if I would act and talk just like them, they would say I'm a hypocrite. When I invite them to Bible study or church, they probably feel as if I am being a predator or judgemental or something.

That said, I am impressed that we are under a huge obligation to live lives of love and compassion and morality as led by the Spirit. Our behaviour is scrutinized by those around us, fairly or unfairly, and we are Christ's ambassadors here. I also know I am a worse sinner than anyone, and need God's grace always.

Rick --

In your interaction with those who don't adopt the label "Christian," how open are you about your own struggles with sin? Do they see the ways in which you fail? Are you a friend and an advisor, or are you primarily set apart?

I suspect that the best way to get around the impossible standard is to readily admit that you'll never meet it. In my life, this involves an admission that I have very real, ongoing issues with lust, temper and food and that I have repeatedly made poor decisions in these (and other) areas. I am pretty motivated to get off the pedestal as quickly as possible, because I know I don't have any business being there.

BFA
 
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