Umm...

[jodrey]

The question was too long to put in the subject. Is there a stage in between judgment (heaven or hell) and our mortal death? I think the Catholics believe in that (Purgatory?) but I'm really not sure.

 

[DWJD]

I would say no. Like have you ever heard of any of those people who are said to be clinically dead, then they come back to life?! They go to Heaven and the actually see God and all. I'm not talking about the tabloids either. Those people never mention anything about a "middle place". But regardless if there were ever ppl who "went to Heaven" I don't think we'll know until it happens to us!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

2 Corinthians 5:7-9 says, (NKJ) For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

So in answer to your question, I would say no.  There is no place, that one goes between heaven or hell when they die.

Before the cross, there was a place called Abraham's bosom (I guess what the catholics might call pergatory).  After the cross, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[jodrey]

1 Peter 3: 19 (KJV)
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

John 5: 25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

1 Peter 4: 6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Revelation 20: 5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

What do most denominations think about these scriptures? I think the Catholics came up with Purgatory because of the reasoning about one who dies being baptized but not righteous. Or maybe that was the other way around. Obviously baptism is necessary (John 3: 5), but... Well, what do people think about this?

 

[Didymus]

i think the dead in john 5 and Ist Peter refer to those who are dead in their sins-spitiually dead--not the physically dead.

 

[GodOwnsMe]

yeh about baptism. I think it's def. not like babies who totally have no choice about that don't go to heaven when they're not baptized.
There are other verses saying everybody who just believes in Jesus will be saved but I'm not sure ! That's what Jesus says and I don't want to turn his words around--- I think once you believe you receive the holy Spirit, I'm not sure if the water is this important ?

 

[karla]

Yes - Catholic believe in Purgatory. Here are some of the biblical references.

A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - these verses allude to a temporary state of purgation called a "prison." There is no exit until we are perfect, and the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for more than 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, to atone for their sins. These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed, in the state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits were in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Even the propensity to sin is uncleanliness. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purificatioin, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

 

[jodrey]

Thanks for that answer, Karla. My church teaches of something very similar to what you describe.

What do Catholics believe regarding baptism for the dead, as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15: 29? All must be baptized, but some die without the chance. What then?

 

[Gerry]

Yesterday at 06:55 PM jodrey said this in Post #8

Thanks for that answer, Karla. My church teaches of something very similar to what you describe.

What do Catholics believe regarding baptism for the dead, as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15: 29? All must be baptized, but some die without the chance. What then?

There is a Dedicated Catholic Forum, specifically for learning about the Catholic religion. No purpose is served by turning a question into a Catholic Vs. Non-Catholic discussion of differences moderated by a Mormon with still a differing view.

"This forum is for non-believers seeking to know more about Christianity. This forum is NOT for Apologetics or debates." < This description clearly posted under the name of the forum.

Besides this form of proselytzing is not only boring but it is downright deceiving and counter productive to those who legitimately seek answers.

 

[karla]

What do Catholics believe regarding baptism for the dead, as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15: 29? All must be baptized, but some die without the chance. What then?

Keep in mind that this is a catholic viewpoint, other faiths or those who do not believe might have other thoughts on the matter

In the case of those who have not yet heard the gospel or learned of God, but who nevertheless seek to follow the truth as they understand it, they have an implicit desire for God since they desire to follow the truth. They simply do not know that God is the truth. Consequently, they also can be saved through baptism of desire; therefore, a proxy baptism is superfluous, either before their death or after it. They are already united to God, even if they are not fully aware of it in this life (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church 847-848, 1257-1260).

The Greek phrase rendered by the King James Version as "for the dead" is huper ton nekron. This phrase is as ambiguous in Greek as it is in English. The preposition huper has a wide semantic range and can indicate "for the sake of," "on behalf of," "over," "beyond," or "more than." Like the English preposition "for," it does not have a single meaning and does not require the Mormon idea of being baptized in place of the dead. Such a reading would be unlikely given the more plausible interpretations available, and even if huper were taken to mean "in the place of," it doesn’t mean Paul endorses the practice.

First Corinthians 15 is a key chapter for Paul’s teaching on the resurrection of the body. He makes no statement on baptism for dead persons except to note that some unnamed "they" practice it. While the rest of his teaching in chapter fifteen refers to "we," his Christian followers, "they" are not further identified. Who this group was may not be known with certitude today, but there are some reasonable interpretations:

1. Some commentators assume this verse refers to the practice of giving newly baptized children the names of deceased non-Christian relatives, with the hope that the dead might somehow share in the Lord’s mercy.

2. Another interpretation envisions the baptism of catechumens who have witnessed the persecution and martyrdom of their Christian predecessors. With their belief that the dead do rise, the Christian candidates come forward boldly and accept both the faith and its consequences.

3. A related view holds that the group consists of those baptized in connection with a dead Christian loved one. In the first century, many families were split religiously, as only one or two members may have converted to Christianity. When it came time for these new Christians to die, they no doubt exhorted their non-Christian family members to consider the Christian faith and to embrace it so that they could be together in the next world. After the deaths of their Christian loved ones, many family members no doubt did investigate the Christian faith and were baptized so that they could be reunited with their loved ones in the afterlife. At the time, many pagans had at best an unclear idea of what the afterlife was like, and there were a large number of sects promising immortality to those who were willing to undergo their initiation rituals. A pagan husband mourning the death of his Christian wife might thus have an unclear idea of what her religion was all about, but still have it fixed in his mind: "If I want to be with her again, I need to become a Christian, like she was, so I can go where Christians go in the afterlife." This, then, could prompt him to investigate Christianity, learn its teachings about the afterlife and the resurrection, and embrace faith in Christ, receiving Christian baptism for the sake of being united with his dead loved one. The same is true, by extension, for other family relations as well, such as parents and children, grandparents and grandchildren. Even today deathbed exhortations to live the Christian life are not uncommon. People still resolve to live as Christians in order to please dead loved ones, to honor their memories, and to be united with them in the next life. The difference is that, today, most of those being exhorted have already been baptized.

4. Others advance the possibility that Paul was referring to the practice of a heretical cult that existed in Corinth. On this theory, Paul was not endorsing the practice of the group, but merely citing it to emphasize the importance of the resurrection. Rather, his point was: If even heterodox Christians have a practice that makes no sense if there is no resurrection of the dead, how much more, then, should we orthodox Catholics believe in and hope for the resurrection of the dead.

There is no other evidence in the Bible or in the early Church Fathers’ writings of baptism being practiced on the living in place of the dead. Some Mormon writers assert that some Christian commentators have discussed the possibility of a kind
of "baptism for the dead" among some in the Corinthian community in Paul’s time. But these commentators do not suggest that the practice was accepted or mainstream. Given the silence of Scripture and tradition, we conclude rightly when we see this behavior as another aberration within a community of believers already soundly scolded by Paul for its lack of charity, its factionalism, its immorality, its abuse of the Eucharist, and other matters.

Although we have no way of knowing for sure who was engaging in this practice, it is certain that Paul was not referring to orthodox Christians baptizing the dead. Catholic and Protestant scholars agree on that.

 

[jodrey]

Today at 02:35 AM Gerry said this in Post #9



There is a Dedicated Catholic Forum, specifically for learning about the Catholic religion. No purpose is served by turning a question into a Catholic Vs. Non-Catholic discussion of differences moderated by a Mormon with still a differing view.

"This forum is for non-believers seeking to know more about Christianity. This forum is NOT for Apologetics or debates." &lt; This description clearly posted under the name of the forum.

Besides this form of proselytzing is not only boring but it is downright deceiving and counter productive to those who legitimately seek answers.

What on earth are you talking about? Who here said anything about apologetics? I had no intention of turning this into a debate, and I would like to hear the opinions of protestants as well, so I think this thread is good here. I'm only here to learn, so don't worry.

 

[jodrey]

Okay, cool. It's interesting to hear other views on it. You certainly know your stuff...

 

[Cecilia]

Interesting posts, Karla! As for the baptism of the dead topic....babies who die without baptism, I believe, are found in the pity of God. Our caring, loving God would never punish an innocent child because of its untimely death. I leave you with another point though...what about babies that are aborted? Are they spared the sins of their mothers?

 

[karla]

(Ezekiel 18:4 NIV) For all lives are mine; the life of the father is like the life of the son, both are mine; only the one who sins shall die.

Pope John Paul's words aborted babies are now "living in the Lord". But that expression should not be taken as a denial of limbo, for souls in limbo have great natural happiness and a knowledge and love of God.

It is widely asserted today that unbaptised babies go to heaven, but this view is not supported by Tradition, the teachings of the Catholic Church's magisterium, or that of the vast majority of theologians through the ages.

I personally have a hard time believing that our loving Lord would not accept the aborted babies into eternal life with him. I guess there is no way of really knowing, but prayer is essential.