Ultimatums?

[bhsmte]

I think what Valley Girl was referring to was marriage counseling. I think what you are referring to is individual counseling. You both may be right.

As a product of several failed attempts at marriage counseling, I have some perspective on this. I believe that individual counseling in many situations is necessary before an attempt at marriage counseling can be made. From experience, if one of the partners has unresolved issues, there is no sense in trying marriage counseling until those issues are resolved, or at least understood. IMO, that may be why martial counseling may seem like it fails a lot.

I would agree, which is why a good therapist, will quickly recognize the same after joint marriage counseling and recommend seeing one or both of the individuals separately.

At the beginning, it is often beneficial for the therapist to see how they interact together, before he gets one or both one on one.

 

[ValleyGal]

I'm not suggesting "let's turn this up one more notch and threaten the relationship in the hopes that it conveys how serious I am"

This is a really good point. Some people could use this as a threat to force submission, and it could become really silly and overused. I can see someone saying "if you don't stop (insert behaviour) then we are through!" But that is not boundaries and it's not an ultimatum. It's manipulation. Threatening the relationship regularly over immaterial things is wrong. It's abusive. Imo, this kind of thing needs to be done very, very carefully, and only with very serious matters that would literally threaten the marriage. I know someone whose spouse was nurturing some really negative thinking - expecting that motives were not supported by goodwill. This kind of thinking, if allowed to go on, will provoke resentment in the other spouse, and both are attitudes that threaten the relationship. It was necessary for the first spouse to explain that while negative thinking happens from time to time, if it was a regular pattern, it would eventually have very serious consequences for the marriage.

Anyone can misuse anything. The law is only there for those who are going to respect it.

 

[ValleyGal]

Interestingly, individual therapy has self-report rates as "very effective" but marriage therapy has self-report rates as "very poor." Dr. John Gottman figures this is because traditional marriage therapies are about teaching clients to have better communication and conflict resolution skills. After one year of therapy, only 18% of clients retain the skills, and not only that, but the "I" statements and all those things simply don't work. It is because of these kinds of results that I quit educating to become a marriage therapist. I have too much integrity to take money from clients, knowing only about 18% of my clients would benefit long-term.

The other part of this is that if a therapist sees a couple, then starts to see one or both separately, that one is then likely to become a target for blame by the other one and only feeds into further division between them and ammunition to use against each other. Imo, seeing them separately does not work on their issues as one marriage, and encourages secrecy and removes the vulnerability that creates a soft heart in the other.

Research simply shows that marriage therapy is ineffective for the most part. That's not to say it can't work - it obviously works to some degree with the 18% who continue to reap benefits after a year.

 

[bhsmte]

Interestingly, individual therapy has self-report rates as "very effective" but marriage therapy has self-report rates as "very poor." Dr. John Gottman figures this is because traditional marriage therapies are about teaching clients to have better communication and conflict resolution skills. After one year of therapy, only 18% of clients retain the skills, and not only that, but the "I" statements and all those things simply don't work. It is because of these kinds of results that I quit educating to become a marriage therapist. I have too much integrity to take money from clients, knowing only about 18% of my clients would benefit long-term.

The other part of this is that if a therapist sees a couple, then starts to see one or both separately, that one is then likely to become a target for blame by the other one and only feeds into further division between them and ammunition to use against each other. Imo, seeing them separately does not work on their issues as one marriage, and encourages secrecy and removes the vulnerability that creates a soft heart in the other.

Research simply shows that marriage therapy is ineffective for the most part. That's not to say it can't work - it obviously works to some degree with the 18% who continue to reap benefits after a year.

I don't disagree that marriage therapy does not have high success rates. IMO, the major reason for this, is the relationship is likely so damaged by that point, most can not be saved.

But here is the important point. If someone gets divorced and wants to have another relationship, chances are similar issues will arise if they don't sort out the reasons why their last relationship failed and this is where good therapy can help someone for later in life.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Ultimatums work, but imo, not usually like they want or expect them to. If the woman said "let's go for counselling or I'm done" and he says "no, I'm not going for counselling" then that means the ultimatum worked because essentially he is saying he doesn't care that she's done. So the ultimatum worked, although it might not have been the answer she was hoping for. Did she mean it when she said she is done? Now that he's said he will not go for counselling, does that mean she will do what she said and leave? Or is she going back on her own ultimatum?

I agree with this. Ultimatums do work when you mean it. If you don't and they call you on it, then you are worse off than before.

 

[DZoolander]

Exactly.

Often what I hear, however, is "It doesn't fix the situation."

I guess it all depends on what you mean by "fix". If you mean it, and "fixing" the situation also includes the very real possibility that the relationship may end...yeah. It does. It fixes it by ensuring you're no longer dealing with the crappy situation that brought you to that position...whether with that person or without them.