Ultimatums?

[DZoolander]

So we have a couple we know that is having a LOT of difficulty in their marriage. They fight like cats and dogs. Essentially, they're one of those couples that are only married because she got pregnant and they thought it was the "right" thing to do. Now that they've been married and have two more kids under their belt (both times seemingly done in hopes it would "improve" the situation) - it's pretty much gotten out of hand.

Personally, I've never seen people fight the way they do before. The kind of language that is lobbed out there - the kinds of insults - etc...it's amazing.

They're both complicit in the situation, of course, but I do have to say that I think he flies off the handle and is far more venomous in the way he speaks/the kinds of threats he makes/etc. Due to that - I lay more culpability on his side.

Recently - she gave him an ultimatum. "Go to counseling with me so we can work on this, or I cannot take this any more."

His response was that counseling is stupid - and if she wants to go do her stupid thing - go for it - but he isn't paying for it.

Whatever.

So she goes to the counselor and starts laying out what's been going on, including that ultimatum. The counselor tells her "ultimatums don't work" and some other spiel...so she's ditched the ultimatum aspect and is going to counseling I suppose to work on herself.

Now - here's my question/thing I'm curious about.

In a sense - I agree with the counselor. Ultimatums don't work when it comes to changing other people or changing situations. Any meaningful change has to be DESIRED be the other party - not imposed upon them.

But at the same time, isn't that a problem?

I'm a firm believer that there is a time and a place for ultimatums...and in that...it isn't because I'm any longer trying to "change" you. Rather, it's a line in the sand that I'm drawing (for my own self protection) where I say "This, I will not tolerate, nor will I live with."

In that - it really has nothing to do with my partner. They're free to do whatever they like. I'm just telling them what the consequence WILL be if they continue to choose going down that path. It's not a conversation piece. It's not a threat. It's not done with any hope of them changing. It's simply a statement of fact.

"I don't want to, nor do I want my children to, bear the brunt of what it means to be with a druggie."
"I don't want to, nor do I want my children to, bear the brunt of what it means to be with an alcoholic."
I don't want to, nor do I want my children to, bear the brunt of what it means to be with an abusive spouse."

etc.

...and if you continue going down that road, I've given you ample notice of the fact I'm leaving.

So no - ultimatums don't "work" to change people...but isn't there a point where you cease trying to "change" them and act in self-protection/protection of your children/etc? Who cares if they change? They're free to do whatever they want. Keep using drugs. Keep being an abusive jerk. Whatever.

...you just ain't doing that with me around any more.

--

It's kind of weird to me that the counselor wouldn't see THAT aspect of an ultimatum...which I think is perfectly good/reasonable/healthy.

Thoughts?

 

[BigDaddy4]

I agree that ultimatums don't work in changing others. I don't know that I would call it an ultimatum, but healthy boundaries need to be set, with specific consequences if those boundaries are crossed.

An ultimatum is about the other person doing or not doing something "or else". A healthy boundary is about oneself and what is or is not acceptable to that person.

For instance, the woman the OP describes could say "Your words/behavior hurt me. I am tired of being hurt and all the yelling and fighting. I don't feel like this is a good example to our children. I do not want to live like this anymore. I am going to counseling to work on things that I have contributed to where we are at. From this point on, I am choosing not to participate in the yelling and fighting. It is no longer acceptable to me for you to yell, berate, etc. If you choose to do that, I will choose to leave the situation and go to another room/outside/spend the night at a friends house, etc."

It's about choices. They both have chosen to argue, fight, etc. Now, she seems to want to choose to stop that and change her behavior. It's his choice if he wants to stop it and do something about his behavior.

 

[ValleyGal]

It's kind of weird to me that the counselor wouldn't see THAT aspect of an ultimatum...which I think is perfectly good/reasonable/healthy.

I'm not surprised, tbh. I don't know what marriage therapists are taught, but I seriously wonder why people spend money on them. Imo, most marriage counsellors are ineffective. When I first went back to college, it was my intent to go into marriage counselling. I had been to "one of the best" in my geographic area, and believe me, he was so awful and took my husband's side - making ME responsible for the beatings. My parents had seen him years before, and they divorced because of the same reason - he took my father's side, and I know it was not my mom's fault for the most part. I always figured I could do a better job at marriage counselling. But during school I realized that they were simply teaching methods that do not work. Honestly, I do not think marriage counsellors are effective enough to spend money on. The woman in your story will likely find the only thing the counsellor can help with is clarifying whether she wants to leave or stay and tolerate the fighting.

I do think there are other, more effective ways to get to the same result. Marriage coaches are great because he help the couple set goals together, and men are more likely to go to a coach than a counsellor. And I think reading the Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work is a great way for anyone to decide whether to continue to pursue making their own marriage work. It sounds like for your friends, there is already a lot of contempt, stonewalling, blaming, and resentment. Once those have taken a foothold, it's pretty hard to repair - especially when the wife made a repair attempt (let's go for counselling) and her attempt was met with more contempt (go yourself and I'm not paying for it).

I am sorry your friends are going through this. Have you and your wife talked about what you will do when and if they split up? How will you stay friends with both? How will you support them both, etc?

 

[DZoolander]

Yeah, we've talked about it, and our stance is that we're probably going to end up remaining her friend and distancing ourselves from him.

A month or two ago she was over at our house after one of their fights, and I was privy to seeing some of the texts he was sending her. He was saying stuff like "you drunken (explicative) harlot, I'm going to take the (explicative) kids from you so that they never see you again...you fat (explicative). You look no better than (explicative) Medusa. (Explicative) you - and everyone you know." blah blah blah

That pretty much set the bar for me about who I'll side with.

I've had my share of arguments - have been through a divorce - and have *never* come even close to even *thinking* about talking to someone that way. Apparently he speaks that way in front of the kids, too.

So - as far as my relationship with him goes - I'm pretty much done. My wife feels the same way. Now - I'm not saying she's by any stretch of the imagination innocent in the whole fiasco - but - his behavior crosses a lot of boundaries in my mind that I haven't seen her cross.

 

[mkgal1]

I've had similar experience with counseling making things WORSE instead of better. I came across this article some time after, and it makes sense to me WHY it's a problem---most counselors want to even out the "blame". When there's a "smoking gun" though (where one spouse isn't interested in "making things better").....that's where the focus ought to lie (IMO). If BOTH spouses aren't on board with improvement.......it's NOT going to happen with just one person (although some authors/therapist will say even *that's* possible).

Reason Number One: As counselors, we have been trained to achieve balance in marital therapy.

Good marriage work usually demands that you help each partner see his or her role in the relationship problems. It does typically take two to mess things up. "Here's what you're doing wrong, Bob." "Here's what you're doing wrong, Susie." In your basic marital case, you ask both spouses to change. In your basic marital case, you don't zero in on one partner and demand that he or she change first.

We're taught that this delicate balancing act applies to all marital cases. It does not! It makes sense for the basic, garden-variety marital case. It does not make sense when you have a smoking gun: one partner in serious sin.~BRING YOUR MARRIAGE BACK FROM THE DEAD

 

[bhsmte]

As with anything else, there are good marriage counselors and there are some who shouldn't be counseling anyone.

A good counselor, has to understand human psychology very well and relate that understanding, to the interactions he has with those seeking help. Some counselors don't grasp the psychology part of it as well and some just don't have as much training in it either, which is why a PHD level counselor is usually a safer bet.

Regarding ultimatums? They usually do backfire, because in a broken marriage situation, they are usually done when emotions are running high and the normal defense mechanism is to dig in and reject the ultimatum. People respond best to change, when it is their idea and on their time frame.

If these folks are fighting as badly as you claim, something is definitely broken and it may be fixable and it may not be. Many times when the environment has gotten that toxic, there is a complete lack of respect between the two people and repairing the relationship becomes unlikely. If one person is in a position where there life is miserable, eventually they have to take action. Whether that be; separating, seeking counseling help or filing for divorce.

 

[mkgal1]

I agree that ultimatums don't work in changing others. I don't know that I would call it an ultimatum, but healthy boundaries need to be set, with specific consequences if those boundaries are crossed.

An ultimatum is about the other person doing or not doing something "or else". A healthy boundary is about oneself and what is or is not acceptable to that person.

For instance, the woman the OP describes could say "Your words/behavior hurt me. I am tired of being hurt and all the yelling and fighting. I don't feel like this is a good example to our children. I do not want to live like this anymore. I am going to counseling to work on things that I have contributed to where we are at. From this point on, I am choosing not to participate in the yelling and fighting. It is no longer acceptable to me for you to yell, berate, etc. If you choose to do that, I will choose to leave the situation and go to another room/outside/spend the night at a friends house, etc."

It's about choices. They both have chosen to argue, fight, etc. Now, she seems to want to choose to stop that and change her behavior. It's his choice if he wants to stop it and do something about his behavior.

Well said, BTW.

 

[DZoolander]

...and my question is - if you remove the idea of "fixing things" as being the primary goal...then isn't an ultimatum ("or else") presentation of the facts appropriate?

"If this continues - I am done"

It may, or may not, continue. I am done with the idea of hoping it will. This is simply notice for you to do with whatever you will.

That's the idea I'm going for. I'm not talking about an ultimatum as a last ditch highest-stake form of situational blackmail to get what you want. I'm talking about a simple statement of fact made with respect to the situation itself - without caring how it ends up.

 

[BigDaddy4]

(Explicative) you - and everyone you know." blah blah blah

That pretty much set the bar for me about who I'll side with.

Since the former is indirectly referring to you (since she knows you), then the latter seems to be the best choice.

If she feels unsafe and has a safe place to go, I'd advise her to leave the situation as soon as possible. It seems this is beyond just arguing and he would almost immediately overstep any healthy boundary she would set.

 

[ValleyGal]

From what I've seen is that if one loses goodwill toward the other, or if one nurtures really negative thinking about the other, chances are it will not work even if they did go for counselling. They need to learn to change their thinking about each other, and that is unlikely to happen without basic goodwill.

I honestly don't think marriage counselling is effective, whether it comes from a PhD or from a bachelor degree and I don't think psychology really plays into it as much as they like to think. I think professionals make it more complicated than it needs to be.

Ultimatums work, but imo, not usually like they want or expect them to. If the woman said "let's go for counselling or I'm done" and he says "no, I'm not going for counselling" then that means the ultimatum worked because essentially he is saying he doesn't care that she's done. So the ultimatum worked, although it might not have been the answer she was hoping for. Did she mean it when she said she is done? Now that he's said he will not go for counselling, does that mean she will do what she said and leave? Or is she going back on her own ultimatum?

 

[bhsmte]

From what I've seen is that if one loses goodwill toward the other, or if one nurtures really negative thinking about the other, chances are it will not work even if they did go for counselling. They need to learn to change their thinking about each other, and that is unlikely to happen without basic goodwill.

I honestly don't think marriage counselling is effective, whether it comes from a PhD or from a bachelor degree and I don't think psychology really plays into it as much as they like to think. I think professionals make it more complicated than it needs to be.

Ultimatums work, but imo, not usually like they want or expect them to. If the woman said "let's go for counselling or I'm done" and he says "no, I'm not going for counselling" then that means the ultimatum worked because essentially he is saying he doesn't care that she's done. So the ultimatum worked, although it might not have been the answer she was hoping for. Did she mean it when she said she is done? Now that he's said he will not go for counselling, does that mean she will do what she said and leave? Or is she going back on her own ultimatum?

I would disagree.

Individual psychology is what drives our behavior and our actions and plays a huge role in why relationships breakdown. If there is no effort to understand what drives certain behavior, then the chance of repairing a relationship is almost none.

 

[mkgal1]

I would disagree.

Individual psychology is what drives our behavior and our actions and plays a huge role in why relationships breakdown. If there is no effort to understand what drives certain behavior, then the chance of repairing a relationship is almost none.

It may take going backwards a step further----deciding whether or not someone is working with a disordered way of thinking or not. A person with a disordered thought pattern isn't going to make sense using typical reasoning. IOW......one can't reason with the unreasonable.

 

[bhsmte]

It may take going backwards a step further----deciding whether or not someone is working with a disordered way of thinking or not. A person with a disordered thought pattern isn't going to make sense using typical reasoning. IOW......one can't reason with the unreasonable.

You have to get at the core. Some folks are thinking in a disordered fashion and don't realize it. Will they ever figure it out on their own? Not likely.

 

[mkgal1]

You have to get at the core. Some folks are thinking in a disordered fashion and don't realize it. Will they ever figure it out on their own? Not likely.

I completely agree.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I would disagree.

Individual psychology is what drives our behavior and our actions and plays a huge role in why relationships breakdown. If there is no effort to understand what drives certain behavior, then the chance of repairing a relationship is almost none.

I think what Valley Girl was referring to was marriage counseling. I think what you are referring to is individual counseling. You both may be right.

As a product of several failed attempts at marriage counseling, I have some perspective on this. I believe that individual counseling in many situations is necessary before an attempt at marriage counseling can be made. From experience, if one of the partners has unresolved issues, there is no sense in trying marriage counseling until those issues are resolved, or at least understood. IMO, that may be why martial counseling may seem like it fails a lot.

 

[mkgal1]

I think that something else that's useful to keep in mind is that manipulation is about limiting a person's choices (do this or else).....and healthy boundaries are about what's best for everyone (can we talk about how we're going to make this better?).

 

[ValleyGal]

I think what Valley Girl was referring to was marriage counseling. I think what you are referring to is individual counseling. You both may be right.

As a product of several failed attempts at marriage counseling, I have some perspective on this. I believe that individual counseling in many situations is necessary before an attempt at marriage counseling can be made. From experience, if one of the partners has unresolved issues, there is no sense in trying marriage counseling until those issues are resolved, or at least understood. IMO, that may be why martial counseling may seem like it fails a lot.

Yes, in addition, I also think that when couples finally get to the point of seeking counselling, it's usually too late and too much water is under the bridge. Usually that's when one or both expect someone to come in and side with them against the partner in order to prove themselves right. I just know (from previous access to Psychinfo and other psych and sociologic databases) that marriage counselling has a very low success rate in keeping marriage together. That does not mean they are not good for some things.

As was posted earlier, the goal is to show each spouse how they both contribute to the breakdown. But sometimes one of them simply does not contribute to the breakdown - like when there is any type of abuse, or when there's a severe untreated mental illness, or when there's a personality disorder....but counsellors don't see these things. Instead, they see two relatively functional (supposedly) and intelligent (supposedly) people who desire (supposedly) to make their marriage work, so they do not even both looking for the real cause because they are so caught up in their own narrow thinking.

Believe me, I spent a long time doing undergrad work to this end, and the more I learned about it, the more I realized why it is not so successful, and I did not want to take people's money knowing that chances are, it was wasted money.

Others are welcome to disagree. I just think there are far more effective ways to help couples do some real work before it gets to the point they even need a therapist.

 

[DZoolander]

Ultimatums work, but imo, not usually like they want or expect them to. If the woman said "let's go for counselling or I'm done" and he says "no, I'm not going for counselling" then that means the ultimatum worked because essentially he is saying he doesn't care that she's done. So the ultimatum worked, although it might not have been the answer she was hoping for. Did she mean it when she said she is done? Now that he's said he will not go for counselling, does that mean she will do what she said and leave? Or is she going back on her own ultimatum?

Exactly - which is pretty much what I was going for.

If you take the stand that either way the truth comes out...meaning...the other individual doesn't actually care enough about how you feel to stop doing the thing that hurts you...or the change actually comes because they know you're serious...then you have your answer.

I'm not suggesting "let's turn this up one more notch and threaten the relationship in the hopes that it conveys how serious I am" - I'm talking a make or break moment where you've defined what you will no longer live with in a dispassionate, factual manner.

If it continues - you will leave. If it continues - you're done. You haven't surprised anyone with it...and you mean it as sincerely as if God Himself had written it in stone. No hopes of it turning out either way. Sure - you'd like to have a happy marriage - but a happy marriage includes X, Y and Z. If that's impossible with *you* - then it's time for *you* to go and free me to find it with someone else - because I *will* have X, Y and Z.

As for whether or not she means it - nah - I don't think she does. I think she's one of the people that is simply trying to ratchet up the noise and hopefully scare him into submission...rather than actually setting any kind of true standard of what she'll accept.

...and I think he knows it.

 

[DZoolander]

Like - for example - my ex wife.

She got into bondage/discipline/sadism/masochism. I told her on one occasion that I would not remain in a marriage with someone that pursued that or desired pursuing that....then I left it alone.

She continued to pursue it. I let her be for a couple of months to sort out her thoughts, prove what she wanted to do, etc. Then one night I reiterated what I said before...asked her if that's the path she wanted to pursue...she said yes..."is that your final answer?"..."yes"...and then I kicked her out and filed for divorce the next day.

Never looked back, never tried to reconcile, never was willing to have any discussions about it.

That's what I mean - a meaningful line in the sand. That statement wasn't about what I wanted her to do. I wasn't trying to coerce her into any specific course of conduct. I simply said what I was willing to accept/have in any marriage. It was honest, it was truthful, and I'd hope in retrospect that she was equally honest and truthful that the new course of her life was what she wanted.

Nearly 16 years later - I hear that she's still fully into that scene - so all in all - I think such an ultimatum served the greatest good. She got to pursue what made her heart content - and I wasn't sacked with year after year of trying to either modify my own beliefs to accept her nonsense - or years and years of fighting trying to get her to change.

 

[technofox]

So we have a couple we know that is having a LOT of difficulty in their marriage. They fight like cats and dogs. Essentially, they're one of those couples that are only married because she got pregnant and they thought it was the "right" thing to do. Now that they've been married and have two more kids under their belt (both times seemingly done in hopes it would "improve" the situation) - it's pretty much gotten out of hand. Personally, I've never seen people fight the way they do before. The kind of language that is lobbed out there - the kinds of insults - etc...it's amazing. They're both complicit in the situation, of course, but I do have to say that I think he flies off the handle and is far more venomous in the way he speaks/the kinds of threats he makes/etc. Due to that - I lay more culpability on his side. Recently - she gave him an ultimatum. "Go to counseling with me so we can work on this, or I cannot take this any more." His response was that counseling is stupid - and if she wants to go do her stupid thing - go for it - but he isn't paying for it. Whatever. So she goes to the counselor and starts laying out what's been going on, including that ultimatum. The counselor tells her "ultimatums don't work" and some other spiel...so she's ditched the ultimatum aspect and is going to counseling I suppose to work on herself. Now - here's my question/thing I'm curious about. In a sense - I agree with the counselor. Ultimatums don't work when it comes to changing other people or changing situations. Any meaningful change has to be DESIRED be the other party - not imposed upon them. But at the same time, isn't that a problem? I'm a firm believer that there is a time and a place for ultimatums...and in that...it isn't because I'm any longer trying to "change" you. Rather, it's a line in the sand that I'm drawing (for my own self protection) where I say "This, I will not tolerate, nor will I live with." In that - it really has nothing to do with my partner. They're free to do whatever they like. I'm just telling them what the consequence WILL be if they continue to choose going down that path. It's not a conversation piece. It's not a threat. It's not done with any hope of them changing. It's simply a statement of fact. "I don't want to, nor do I want my children to, bear the brunt of what it means to be with a druggie." "I don't want to, nor do I want my children to, bear the brunt of what it means to be with an alcoholic." I don't want to, nor do I want my children to, bear the brunt of what it means to be with an abusive spouse." etc. ...and if you continue going down that road, I've given you ample notice of the fact I'm leaving. So no - ultimatums don't "work" to change people...but isn't there a point where you cease trying to "change" them and act in self-protection/protection of your children/etc? Who cares if they change? They're free to do whatever they want. Keep using drugs. Keep being an abusive jerk. Whatever. ...you just ain't doing that with me around any more. -- It's kind of weird to me that the counselor wouldn't see THAT aspect of an ultimatum...which I think is perfectly good/reasonable/healthy. Thoughts?

TLDR

My ex-wife's ultimatums didn't work, because she used them to try to control me and get her way so she didn't have to share in house hold chores. Personally there marriage is salvageable, but the husband definitely needs to participate in trying to make the marriage work. If he refuses, then the marriage is already dead and the only way to send him a clear message to work things out is to move out on him with the kids. If that doesn't work then divorce papers should be filed to spook him into counseling with reasonable deadline to go to counseling or end up divorced. If this guy values his family (or money) it may be worth it to him to get his act together and reconcile, if not I have no pity for him when he has to pay child support and alimony.