uh........Col 1:24???

[Hoonbaba]

Another thought: Do you think Acts 9:4 says something related to Col 1:24?

Jesus claims that he is being persecuted by Saul, thus saying that to persecute the Church is to persecute Jesus himself. So when God's people suffer, that would mean Jesus is suffering along with them (1 Cor 12:26), am I correct?

If that's the case, then would that imply that Jesus is continually suffering since God's people all around the world are suffering in one form or another?

And if that's true, then does that say something about the Mass as the 'perpetual sacrifice'?

Or am I stepping into heresy?

I guess the whole notion of us making up for what is lacking has to do with us being living sacrifices....but would this mean that Jesus is forever a living sacrifice? Am I making sense or am I way off the deep end?

Thoughts?

-Jason

 

[Hoonbaba]

Today at 10:41 AM Gordi said this in Post #15

Theresa I agree that suffering is part of our battle when we become Christians, but the scripture you have used there is not justifying what you're talking about.

Jesus' sacrifice was perfect, he done all that needed to be done as atonement on the cross.  Our battle is to spread the Good News while we are here and win souls for Jesus.

Mary did not offer her son.  Jesus was gonna do what he had to do no matter what Mary wanted.  Jesus was a grown man, also the son of God, he was an offering FROM GOD NOT MARY.

Matthew 12:46-50

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.  Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"  Pointing to his disciples he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers.  For whosoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Without twisting and denying the context of that passage, it's obvious that Jesus had brothers born from Mary the natural way.

Jesus was unique, his sacrifice was unique, if you use any other mediator to reach God you are denying the entire reason Jesus was sent to us.

No one comes to the father, but by me!

While I don't intend to refute any of these claims, I noticed something significant about when he said:

He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"  Pointing to his disciples he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers.  For whosoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

I guess one interpretation of this is that Mary in fact did the will of God by choosing to be obedient to God's plan (Luke 1:38) =)

Personally, I find it strange how Gordi makes comments which imply that he didn't even read (or fully understand) Theresa's comments.  But I think I'll stop there.  No need to turn this into some huge debate. 

But I must admit:  it's so tempting to want to exegetically refute some of the claims.  Oh well.  I see no need 'argue'.  My sinfulness brings me to a point where a part of me tries to prove others that I'm right.  Please pray for me if you can.

-Jason

 

[Gordi]

Hoonbaba, the fact is that Theresa is implying that it was Mary who give her son, when it infact was God's only son.

Read through all of Luke chapter one, you will see Jesus regarded as the Son of God.  Theresa is comparing Mary with Abraham in the context that Abraham was prepared to offer his only son to God.  This was God testing Abraham.

God knew that Abraham was faithful and would carry out his will.  So God sent Jesus, his only son as a sacrifice for mans sins.

Mary was blessed in the fact that she was used by God to give birth to Jesus, but Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit and not by natural, sexual reproduction.  He was the Son of God.

That's why in that verse I quoted, when Jesus is told his mother and brothers are outside wanting to speak to him, he refers to his disciple as his mother, brother, sister etc..

Jesus was God in the flesh.  And I'm sure Mary was grieved as she looked upon him as her son.  But he was the Son of God.


I'm sorry, but I hold firm the belief that anyone who thinks they can add to the sacrifice Jesus suffered here on earth for us is denying his power. 

Paul was trying to get people to understand that through persecution we will suffer in Christ's name, by spreading the word and winning people's souls to Jesus.
 

 

[Gordi]

I would like to apologise seing that this aint the place for debates.

Slaps head   I dont want to come accross as an "I'm right, you're wrong" type person.

Philippians 2:12 has an interesting part in it:

...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[chelcb]

When was "your own" added to that ???

 

[Gordi]

Here is the full verse in all the Bible versions I have:

Philipians 2:12

NIV Version - Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed - not only in my presence - continue to work out your salvation in fear and trembling,

KJ Version - Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

NAS Version - So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Means, the same thing in all three translations above, and you're gonna find that it's the same in most translations.

If you look at the context this verse was in, in verses 10-11:

That at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth. 

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the father.

Wherefore/therefore.........(leading onto the verse above)

 

[Gordi]

I could post it from the Good News Bible I have here also, but people tend to laugh when you quote Good News hehe.

It's for children more I think.  I like reading some Old Testament from it though

 

[chelcb]

So why did you quote "your own" ?

 

[Gordi]

Because I was reading from the KJV.  That's the version I tend to stick to, though I like to read other translations after it for comparison.

It means the same thing without twisting the context of the passage.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Today at 10:29 AM Gordi said this in Post #23

I'm sorry, but I hold firm the belief that anyone who thinks they can add to the sacrifice Jesus suffered here on earth for us is denying his power.  

Hi Gordi,

Don't have much time at the moment, but unless I misread the previous posts, no one is denying Christ's power to save through the cross.  I think the emphasis is more on the reality of suffering in the Christian life.

-Jason

 

[Hoonbaba]

One more thing: I don't think anyone's denying that Jesus is the Son of God. Theresa was drawing some parallels which I think are valid for illustrating the reality of Mary suffering as she watched Jesus die (and of course John too).

God bless!

-Jason

 

[Gordi]

Nice 1 Jason.

I wish I was as chilled a person as you.