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uh........Col 1:24???

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Hoonbaba

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Can someone explain Colossian 1:24? 

"Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. " (Col 1:24, NIV)

How can Christ's afflictions be lacking??? 

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

-Jason
 

nyj

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From the NAB notes on this verse:

What is lacking: although variously interpreted, this phrase does not imply that Christ's atoning death on the cross was defective. It may refer to the apocalyptic concept of a quota of "messianic woes" to be endured before the end comes; cf Mark 13:8, 19-20, 24 and the note on Matthew 23:29-32. Others suggest that Paul's mystical unity with Christ allowed him to call his own sufferings the afflictions of Christ.
 
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Hoonbaba

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NYJ,

Do you think you can expand on that 'messianic woe' part? What did the NAB notes mean when it said that?

I think the thing about Paul's mystical unity with Christ has something to do with it. I just find that passsage really puzzling :)

Anyone else have any thoughts on it?

-Jason
 
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chelcb

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It means that our human suffering has meaning and value and is a means for drawing down grace for others and ourselves.

When we suffer and when we join our sufferings with his. It is not that his suffering lacks anything at all, it is because of the fact that his sufferings are complete and effective that, when we join our incomplete frail human sufferings with his, ours then have merit. We can then use our sufferings now that they are joined to his for the redemption of souls. That is what Paul means when he says he ‘makes up for what is lacking.'
 
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Theresa

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"The Fathers of the Church have recognized that Mary's suffering at Calvary played a coredemptive role in the divine scheme of salvation. Protestant Fundamentalists may feel uneasy about the idea of uniting one's suffering to the suffering of Christ and thereby participating in His salvific mission. But this is precisely the idea that is so masterfully developed by Paul in his epistle to the Colossians: "I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is the Church." (Colossians 1:24). This is a startling passage - and a familiar part of Lutheran-Catholic polemic - because it implies that there is something "lacking in Christ's afflictions" and that Paul can "complete" what is lacking through his suffering. What the Protestant Fundamentalist fails to understand is that while the redemptive sacrifice of Christ was completed on Calvary the work of redemption, the application of this redemptive sacrifice to men and women, will continue throughout history. The suffering of any person, when offered freely to God, is incorporated by Him in the salvific scheme. We can all be co-redeemers in this sense. "We are God's fellow-workers," says Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:9. "

http://mariology.com/sections/NewTest.html

"We can't even imagine what it's like, but we have been granted the
fiery Holy Spirit of love to enable us to do what would otherwise be
humanly impossible in this life, to purge ourselves. That is why Paul
says in Colossians 1:24 something that used to baffle me, Colossians
1:24, "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake." [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]? No.
In a sense, he is the opportunist. He is the one who sees the ultimate
rewards. "I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I
complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of His
body that is the Church."

Now does he mean that Christ died a little too quickly? He needed
a few more hours? No. It means that Christ's suffering and death must
be reproduced and filled up in the Church and if some are slacking
off, that means others must become more like victim-souls, willing to
bear a greater burden, willing to shoulder with love, as Galatians 5
speaks about the love, "Love bears one another's burdens." We do that
just as 1st John 5 speaks about how we can pray for others and get
them back on track after their venial sins have been committed. So
likewise we can suffer on behalf of others. That's what fathers and
mothers do all the time. And God calls us to do that in the
supernatural family, as well, on behalf of our brothers and sisters
and our spiritual children, as well. That's what Paul takes for
granted when he makes such an outlandish statement. Outlandish only
for those who do not recognize the essential need for suffering."


That's what it means to be united in him. That's what the whole
significance of our baptism is. Paul says in Romans 6 that because we
have been baptized, we have died to sin. When James and John brought
their mother to kind of lobby for the right and the left seats in
glory, he said, "Are you willing to be baptized with the baptism with
which I have to be baptized?" So what did He associate baptism with?
An ordeal of suffering. Christ said, "I come to baptize with fire."
I've got to tell you, a lot of people are making salvation out to be
heavenly welfare. No wonder it sells. I could fill a church in a
matter of months, it I was preaching nothing but welfare from heaven
for nothing we do. We don't have to suffer. We don't have to work. We
don't have to obey. We should, but we don't have to. That's wrong, but
it will sell in this century and in every age.

That's why purgatory is so incomprehensible. That's why it seems
so wrong, because it feels so right to have a kind of welfare scheme.
No. God is not some politician buying votes by promising all kinds of
little goodies. I mean not that welfare is not essential in our
society. Let's assume that it is needed. But ultimately God does not
want to make us completely dependent in a sense of being helpless. God
wants to father sons and daughters who will grow up and mature and be
strong in faith, hope and charity, filled with wisdom, filled with
spiritual strength to love others and to sacrifice themselves for
others. This is all of what purgatory implies.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/PURGATRY.TXT
 
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Hoonbaba

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Today at 03:59 PM nyj said this in Post #7



Huh?

Here's a bunch of translations of Col 1:24

King James Version - Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

I think francie is making the claim that 'which is behind' gives a different meaning since it can be understood differently with that phrase.  But several other translations give reason to believe it's consistent with what we've been talk'n about:

Young's Literal Translation - I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and do fill up the things lacking of the tribulations of the Christ in my flesh for his body, which is the assembly,

New American Standard - Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

New King James Version - I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

English Standard Version - Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

Personally, I think 'which is behind' cannot be translated as 'which is literally behind' but rather 'which is lacking'.  The Greek word is 'Husterema' (Strong's #5303), which is defined as deficient or lacking.  So I don't know if the 'behind' thing is a credible explanation of Col 1:24.

God bless!

-Jason
 
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Hoonbaba

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Today at 02:23 PM Theresa said this in Post #5

"The Fathers of the Church have recognized that Mary's suffering at Calvary played a coredemptive role in the divine scheme of salvation.


Uhmm....Mary suffered at Calvary!?!?  Jesus was the one who died on the cross.....

Can someone explain?

-Jason
 
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chelcb

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Today at 07:11 PM Hoonbaba said this in Post #9




Uhmm....Mary suffered at Calvary!?!?  Jesus was the one who died on the cross.....

Can someone explain?

-Jason

Mary did suffer, she watched her son die, isn't that suffering to you? Could you watch your innocent son die for the human race with out suffering and feeling the pain yourself?????
 
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Theresa

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Geepers, I'm having this "bringing up taboo" subjects problem these days!

Forget that part if you want to just focus on the rest of the paragraph. Or, perhaps remember that it was Mary and John who were at the foot of the cross, all the other Apostles ran away. So then consider:

"Luke 2
34Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too." "


Then go back to Abraham where he was willing to sacrifice his own son,

"Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"
"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.
"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"
8 Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son."


and God halted this sacrifice and prepared his only son, Jesus, to be sacrificed and he went through with it. The thing is, Jesus was Mary's son too, so Mary offered her son to God in the same way that Abraham did, and it was just as significant.

"The suffering of any person, when offered freely to God, is incorporated by Him in the salvific scheme. We can all be co-redeemers in this sense. "We are God's fellow-workers," says Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:9. But the co-redemptive role performed by the immaculately conceived Mother of God is qualitatively distinct. Because of her relation to her Son as Mother and because her aversion to sin in her Immaculate Conception and her love for God is far greater than that of any other human person, Mary's suffering is most intimately united to our Lord's and plays such a significant role in the divine scheme of salvation."

"In all the best Mariological writing of the present day the utmost care has been taken to preserve the unity of the redemptive act, to insist that there are not two acts, one performed by Christ and one by Mary, but one act, whose principal agent is Christ, and in which Mary's part is organically related and subordinated to his. ... In the early Church the fact about Mary's part in redemption which seems to have struck the minds of Christians most forcibly was that her obedience reversed the disobedience of Eve."
 
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Gordi

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Theresa I agree that suffering is part of our battle when we become Christians, but the scripture you have used there is not justifying what you're talking about.

Jesus' sacrifice was perfect, he done all that needed to be done as atonement on the cross.  Our battle is to spread the Good News while we are here and win souls for Jesus.

Mary did not offer her son.  Jesus was gonna do what he had to do no matter what Mary wanted.  Jesus was a grown man, also the son of God, he was an offering FROM GOD NOT MARY.

Matthew 12:46-50

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.  Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"  Pointing to his disciples he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers.  For whosoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Without twisting and denying the context of that passage, it's obvious that Jesus had brothers born from Mary the natural way.

Jesus was unique, his sacrifice was unique, if you use any other mediator to reach God you are denying the entire reason Jesus was sent to us.

No one comes to the father, but by me!
 
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Hoonbaba

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Yesterday at 09:12 PM chelcb said this in Post #13



Mary did suffer, she watched her son die, isn't that suffering to you? Could you watch your innocent son die for the human race with out suffering and feeling the pain yourself?????


Hi Chelcb,

I thought you were saying that Mary died on the cross =P Sorry for the confusion.  By the way, would that mean that John also suffered alongside with Mary since John also witnessed Jesus's death?

-Jason
 
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Hoonbaba

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Today at 05:09 PM chelcb said this in Post #18

We all witness his death in one way or the other when we suffer in our own lives that is kind of the whole point. We can suffer with him by uniting our sufferings with his and when we do it is redemptive.

Whoa.....I like what you said about how we all witness his death when we suffer in our own lives!!!!  I think that's incredible!!  Thanks for sharing!!

-Jason
 
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