U/C Unconditional election vs. Conditional election

Caedmon · Jun 17, 2002

How do you know God does not have a plan behind such an insidious act? I thought that "all things work together for good". Am I wrong? Were not the people that wanted Christ crucified also evil? No, Christ would not have refused. Salvation had been established before the founding of the Earth; it was predestined, and being God Himself, Christ knew it would and should happen.

Slave2SinNoMore · Jun 18, 2002

Originally posted by humblejoe
How do you know God does not have a plan behind such an insidious act? I thought that "all things work together for good". Am I wrong? Were not the people that wanted Christ crucified also evil? No, Christ would not have refused. Salvation had been established before the founding of the Earth; it was predestined, and being God Himself, Christ knew it would and should happen.

I am not saying that God cannot turn evil things around for good. He does do that, because he is great and merciful God. But I am saying that evil things are not in God's will. I will never ever believe that God wills for some sicko pedophile to harm a child. If you can say that, you are saying that pedophile was being used by God to do that evil act, and that he should not be blamed, because it was God's will. But we know that God does not put evil thoughts in a person's mind. It is Satan who does that. It is Satan, not God, who wants children to be harmed and raped.

I also know that Christ would not have refused. But he could have. He loved us so much that he willingly took up the cross.

mjwhite · Jun 18, 2002

Dear Slavenomore,

You said,

I say this. That God is not willing that any should perish, and calls all men unto himself

That verse you are referring to in 2nd Peter is being used by you out of context. Peter was writing to Christians. See 2nd Peter 1:1 where Peter addresses his letter to all those who have received a precious faith like his. Therefore in 2nd Peter 3:9 when he says: The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some people understand slowness, but He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Who is the Lord patient with? You, the writer of the letter says to his recipients; you who have received a like precious faith as he had. In otherwords, Peter is directing this verse towards believers, not the world in general, but the elect.

You continue
. Yes, you are right that some will never hear the name Jesus, or the gospel, but Paul tells us that everyone receives the truth in some measure:
Romans 1:20
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Romans 2:14-16
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

So, these people, who have never heard the Gospel, are still being called, and have been given the truth, and will be judged by God in his mercy and justice. We don't know what he will take into account, but these verses tell us that they are given an opportunity. That is what I call an opportunity.

Read Romans chapters 1 through 3 in context. Sure these people have received a general revelation of the truth, but not the gospel. They do not receive gospel saving truth. They know [by the truth they have received] that they are sinners and that they violate their own consciences. Basically they have received the Law. The Law cannot save anyone. As Romans 3:19-23 tells us, these people, yea, even all people are found guilty before God and deserve death. It also tells us that only by faith in Jesus and His blood can people experience the righteousness needed for redemption.

You again

I do know that Christ is the only way, and that "no man comes to the Father" but by him. So, for any man to enter Heaven, he must come through Jesus. How does the person who never heard figure into all this? I do not know how the people who have never heard the name "Jesus" will be judged. But I know that God is God and he will take care of it, and that the verses I posted (Rom 1:20 and Rom 2:14-16) do seem to address this issue.

They do address that issue. God will judge all people righteously. If they are sinners who do not have faith in Jesus and the cross, they will be rightfully sent to hell. Refusing to trust Jesus is not a condemnable offense. John3 purposefully tells us that Jesus and the cross were not sent to the world to condemn the world, but that those who never believe are already condemned. What condemns a person? His sin does. Since we are all sinners, we all deserve condemnation. God in His mercy and grace chooses to save some of us through Jesus.

You
But for one to believe that God purposefully created people for destruction, and that he desires certain people to go to hell goes directly against the following verse:

Do you believe in the foreknowledge of God? The Arminianist position [as posted by Ben on this forum] says that God looked into the future [via His foreknowledge] and in seeing who would choose Jesus, predestined these to be the elect. Now everyone who God did not see getting saved are those whom He will judge and damn. He saw them, and made the world anyway. Which you says contradicts this verse:

I Timothy 2:4
"Who desires all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth".

Again, you rip the verse out on context and assign your own meaning to it.. Paul is not making a statement of what God wills for every single human that ever lived. Many have gone and died and went to hell already. Does God now will them to be saved? If God willed that Judas be saved why did He write the Scripture that Judas [as the son of perdition] must be lost? See John 17:13. And while you are in John 17, read the prayer in context. Read how Jesus is NOT praying for the world in general [and specifically says that], but rather is only praying for believers. John 17:6-21.

Originally posted by humblejoe

If they are not judged by their works, then by what? There is only one thing outside of works... GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY.

Exactly...you'll get no argument from me there. God is sovereign and will judge these people according to his sovereignity. Paert of his sovereign nature is his justice and mercy. It all works together. Please remember that.

Part of His sovereign nature is wrath as well. All deserve wrath and will receive it except for those for whom Jesus paid the price for as evidenced by their profession of His name in faith. The rest deserve and will receive judgment and condemnation.

So what does 1st Timothy 2:4 mean? It means that Paul is saying that the gospel is not limited to a few people here or there, or just the Jewish people, but to people everywhere, people of every race and tongue and nation,. See Rev. 5:6-10.
In Him,
mike

Slave2SinNoMore · Jun 18, 2002

Originally posted by mjwhite

They do address that issue. God will judge all people righteously. If they are sinners who do not have faith in Jesus and the cross, they will be rightfully sent to hell. What condemns a person? His sin does. Since we are all sinners, we all deserve condemnation. God in His mercy and grace chooses to save some of us through Jesus.
You
But for one to believe that God purposefully created people for destruction, and that he desires certain people to go to hell goes directly against the following verse:
I Timothy 2:4
"Who desires all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth".
Again, you rip the verse out on context and assign your own meaning to it.. Paul is not making a statement of what God wills for every single human that ever lived. See John 17:13. And while you are in John 17, read the prayer in context. Read how Jesus is NOT praying for the world in general [and specifically says that], but rather is only praying for believers. John 17:6-21.

[So what does 1st Timothy 2:4 mean? It means that Paul is saying that the gospel is not limited to a few people here or there, or just the Jewish people, but to people everywhere, people of every race and tongue and nation,. See Rev. 5:6-10.
In Him,
mike

We all deserve condemnation, that's right. But why would God provide a rescue plan for only some people?

Here is the description of 2 gods:

God 1:Loves the world so much that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

God 2:Loves some people so much that he gave his only begotten son, but only for certain people. This god creates some people simply for destruction, who will never even have the chance to hear of Christ. He will send them to hell anyway.

Are these 2 gods the same god? I would say not.

You talk about me ripping something out of context, but it's just not true! I didn't assign it my own meaning. I assigned it the meaning that is blatant to anyone who reads it, whether in context or not. In 2 Timothy, Paul is indeed talking about ALL people, not just groups of people in all different areas of the world. In fact, I will color all instances of the word "all" or "everyone" in blue. I do not see how you can possibly claim that Paul is not talking about all people here.

1Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men , 2for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself a ransom for all , to be testified in due time, The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

If Paul meant that God only wanted some to be saved, why didn't he say that?

Revelation 5:6-10 does nothing, absolutely nothing to refute the theory that all men are called.

Caedmon · Jun 18, 2002

Originally posted by Slave2SinNoMore
Here is the description of 2 gods:

God 1:Loves the world so much that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

God 2:Loves some people so much that he gave his only begotten son, but only for certain people. This god creates some people simply for destruction, who will never even have the chance to hear of Christ. He will send them to hell anyway.

Are these 2 gods the same god? I would say not.

"Loves the world so much that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

That "whosoever believes" is the Elect.

Ben johnson · Jun 18, 2002

[as posted by Ben on this forum] says that God looked into the future [via His foreknowledge] and in seeing who would choose Jesus, predestined these to be the elect.

Ben didn't say that. Ben said, that "those whom He FOREKNEW, He predestined to be CHRISTLIKE". The verse in Phlp1:6 says "He will bring to completion the good work He began in you"---but, contextually, it is entirely predicated upon the believer's BELIEF. (Paul then prays for the believers to ENDURE IN THEIR SALVATION, in verses 1:9-14; unless someone can contend that "in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ" is not talking about salvation {see Col1:22-23})...

Again, you rip the verse out on context and assign your own meaning to it.. Paul is not making a statement of what God wills for every single human that ever lived. Many have gone and died and went to hell already. Does God now will them to be saved? If God willed that Judas be saved why did He write the Scripture that Judas [as the son of perdition] must be lost? See John 17:13. And while you are in John 17, read the prayer in context. Read how Jesus is NOT praying for the world in general [and specifically says that], but rather is only praying for believers. John 17:6-21.

God wills, and God desires. Two different approaches. What God wills, must occur. What God desires, may occur. God does not WILL that ANY man be saved. He DESIRES that ALL MEN be saved. If God WILLS only the ELECT (His choice) be saved, then how do you separate the first "Pas Anthropos" of Rm5:18 (condemnation to all men), from the second "Pas Anthropos" (justification to all men)? Where is the predestined-election in verses such as Rm10:13, Jn1:7, Rm3:22?

So what does 1st Timothy 2:4 mean? It means that Paul is saying that the gospel is not limited to a few people here or there, or just the Jewish people, but to people everywhere, people of every race and tongue and nation,. See Rev. 5:6-10.

Indeed. The Gospel is available to all---all who will believe...

Slave2SinNoMore · Jun 18, 2002

Originally posted by Ben johnson
God wills, and God desires. Two different approaches. What God wills, must occur. What God desires, may occur. God does not WILL that ANY man be saved. He DESIRES that ALL MEN be saved.

That's very interesting, Ben. I had never heard there is a difference between what God wills and God desires. What does "will" mean as opposed to "desire"? I'm not trying to argue here; I really don't know.
Thanks.

Ben johnson · Jun 18, 2002

God desired that Adam not fall---but He did nothing to prevent it. The Bible says that God desires for all men to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth.

Some of the "OSAS" people believe in "predestined-election"---which holds that God wills for some to be saved, and these He irresistably "helkuo-drags-draws" to Himself, the rest He leaves in their sins, to perish. Purporting that the perishing is their own fault, nevertheless denying that it is GOD who holds the responsibility (the "elect" would also have perished, because of their "total depravity", but only because of God's intervention---thus, those who perish most certainly DO have an excuse---it may be their SINS that condemn them, but it was God CHOOSING Hell for them by not DRAGGING THEM FROM it as He did the also-perishing-ones-which-became-saved)...

Our ("OSNAS") belief is that God has a will (Jesus was purposed to die on the Cross, God's WILL from the foundation), but we believe that the application is that He allows them to receive Christ or reject Him. In this belief, Jesus died for all men---it is absolutely possible for every man woman and child who ever has/is/will live can be saved. And this would please God immensely. But, His sovereignty allowed Him the application for someone to choose to love Him, or to choose to reject Him. What God wills, happens---what God desires, He gives leave to happen or not.

God's nature is absolute good, and ultimate perfect. He is also ultimate just---and I do not believe "just" includes deciding who will be rescued from Hell, and who will be left alone to perish---those who perish, for justness to exist, must do so on entirely their own choice...

(I also do not believe God has "several wills"---thus I read Rom12:2 as ONE will, which is good AND acceptable AND perfect; there are those who read this as three different wills)

We all seem to agree on what "gets us saved"---it is receiving Jesus as our Lord and Savior. We disagree on things like, "where does faith-to-salvation/belief come from", we differ on "salvation being FELLOWSHIP/ABIDING-IN-HIM". I persist in debates because I believe the answers to these questions shape our very walks, and in reality our very eternal destinies.

If salvation is "God-willed and God-maintained", it is a very different walk than if "God allows us to endure/persevere IN HIM, or NOT"...

BTW, to say "Nothing happens outside of His will", may be true, but to say that He is responsible for the evils in the world is false. Obviously He allows a certain lattitude in worldly affairs. I only say that there is also a lattitude in our (the "elect") walk with Him...

Chris†opher Paul · Jun 19, 2002

Simple question. Instead of throwing scripture at each other, answer this please.

Is it possible that someone could live a wonderfully Christian live, be devoted to God, and then lose faith, and reject Him?

If it is possible, is the person still saved?

Candidus · Jun 19, 2002

Is it possible that someone could live a wonderfully Christian live, be devoted to God, and then lose faith, and reject Him? If it is possible, is the person still saved?

NO.

s0uljah - Answering the question apart from Scripture? I am not too sure about approaching the issue from the philosophical angle. I'm interested as to where this one goes.

Wouldn't the following be a valid philosophical question also?

Is it possible that someone could live a terrible and sinful life, be a God rejecter, and then gain faith, trust Christ and accept Him?

If it is possible, is the person still lost?

Blessings

Chris†opher Paul · Jun 19, 2002

But it is possible. It happens. There are priests that lose their faith and turn atheist.

Are they still saved. since at one point in their lives, they were faithful?

edpobre · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah
Simple question. Instead of throwing scripture at each other, answer this please.

Is it possible that someone could live a wonderfully Christian live, be devoted to God, and then lose faith, and reject Him?

Yes! Job was tested to see if he would turn his back from God once he experiences hadship. He remained faithful to God though, but the possibility was there and COULD have turned his back to God if he were a lesser man.

The New Testament tells of the 70 who were offended by what Jesus told them and "walked with him no more."

Judas enjoyed a good place at the side of Jesus during the last supper but betrayed him.

The TRUTH is, Jesus exhorted his disciples to ENDURE until the end in order to be saved.

If it is possible, is the person still saved?

No! Jesus says he is the VINE and his DISCIPLES are the branches. A BRANCH that does NOT bear fruits of righteousness is CUT-OFF from the VINE. A BRANCH that is cut-off from the VINE is gathered, withered and THROWN into the fire (John 15:4-6).

Jesus did NOT teach that once a person is SAVED, he will ALWAYS be SAVED. This teaching is NOT of God, hence, those who ADHERE to this doctrine will NOT be saved.

Ed

ScottEmerson · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah
Simple question. Instead of throwing scripture at each other, answer this please.

Is it possible that someone could live a wonderfully Christian live, be devoted to God, and then lose faith, and reject Him?

If it is possible, is the person still saved?

I think in the same way a man can accept the free gift, they can choose to give it back. They're not losing their salvation, but giving it away.

I've seen several strong Christians (with fruit, mind you), who have gone through whatever and renounced their salvation. Will God "force" them to go to heaven?

BTW, I think Judas ended up in heaven. Why? He died before Christ and Jesus told the Twelve in Matthew (I think) that the twelve of them would be sitting on the twelve thrones in heaven representing the twelve tribes of Israel.

Chris†opher Paul · Jun 19, 2002

I agree with Ed and Scott.

Scott-

That is interesting about Judas, by the way. After all, he did repent in a way. He felt so bad he killed himself.

edpobre · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson

BTW, I think Judas ended up in heaven. Why? He died before Christ and Jesus told the Twelve in Matthew (I think) that the twelve of them would be sitting on the twelve thrones in heaven representing the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas will NOT be saved. He FELL into TRANSGRESSION. Judas was replaced by Matthias BEFORE the resurrection of Jesus (Acts 1:22-26) in order that twelve of them will be witness of Jesus' resurrection (verse 22). Thus, Judas will NOT be among the twelve that would sit on the twelve thrones in heaven representing the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthias (verse 26) took Judas' place.

Ed

Slave2SinNoMore · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by Ben johnson
God desired that Adam not fall---but He did nothing to Our ("OSNAS") belief is that God has a will (Jesus was purposed to die on the Cross, God's WILL from the foundation), but we believe that the application is that He allows them to receive Christ or reject Him. In this belief, Jesus died for all men---it is absolutely possible for every man woman and child who ever has/is/will live can be saved. And this would please God immensely. But, His sovereignty allowed Him the application for someone to choose to love Him, or to choose to reject Him. God's nature is absolute good, and ultimate perfect. He is also ultimate just---and I do not believe "just" includes deciding who will be rescued from Hell, and who will be left alone to perish---those who perish, for justness to exist, must do so on entirely their own choice...

Hi Ben,
Thanks for the answer. As you know, I'm OSAS, and I agree with you on this issue.

ScottEmerson · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by humblejoe
Do you truly believe that God wills that every single person should be saved? If God wanted everyone to be saved, it would happen:

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; it will not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. - Isaiah 55:11, NASB

IN the context, "word" refers to prophecy, not will. It says that it is God's desire that all men are saved. Could not God have saved all men instead of damning others? That's a question both Arminians and Calvinists have to deal with.

I am much more comfortable personally and Biblically with the Arminian answer to that.

ScottEmerson · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre

Ah, but Matthias wasn't there when Christ told them about the seats in heaven. Witnessing the resurrection had nothing to do with it. If Judas were to die before the death of Christ, would he not have been preached to during the days Christ was dead as it states in Peter's epistle? And Christ ascended around verse 9 or 10, and they picked Matthias after the ascension.

Chris†opher Paul · Jun 19, 2002

But Jesus could see the future. So he could have been bypassing Judas, knowing that some 12 would exist.

Reformationist · Jun 19, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah
Is it possible that someone could live a wonderfully Christian live, be devoted to God, and then lose faith, and reject Him?

If by reject you mean "reject unto losing their salvation" I would say no. Our salvation was not wrought by a decision we could make outside of God's providence, therefore, getting it, or retaining it is not our jurisdiction.

If by reject you instead mean "backslide," then I would most definitely say yes. I have never met a Christian who hasn't, at any time in their life, gotten lax about their faith or adherance to God's commands.

If it is possible, is the person still saved?

Again (trying to do this without scripture ) as the Bible says, God is faithful to finish the good work that He started in us. He is faithful, even when we are not.

Originally posted by edpobre
Jesus did NOT teach that once a person is SAVED, he will ALWAYS be SAVED. This teaching is NOT of God, hence, those who ADHERE to this doctrine will NOT be saved.

This type of legalistic approach to salvation is what Jesus admonished the Jews for. Our salvation, or the retention of it, is not dependant on how well we keep the law, or even how well we interpret scripture. The truth is, our ability to correctly interpret God's Word is a result of our salvation and conformation, not a means by which to obtain it. Also, I would advise against making judgments about the disposition of a persons salvation. As you are not the one who decides who does obtain God's gift of eternal life, you certainly won't be the one who bars someone from God's Kingdom. This is what the Lord was talking about in Matthew 7:1.

God bless.

U/C Unconditional election vs. Conditional election

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