Typically gay

[TwinCrier]

I recently was in a conversation about homosexuality and an interesting point came up:
This person calimed she was discouraged by her lesbian community from growing her hair and nails long. Now first, I thought the whole 'gay community' thing was a myth we homophobes created, but presumming this is true, why DO male homoseuals often imatate females and vice-versa? It seems to me a female attracted to females would want a partner that looks, well, female. If Gays are infact happy in their lifestyle, why the push to act heterosexual with marriage and children? It seems contradictory to me.

 

[burrow_owl]

If Gays are infact happy in their lifestyle, why the push to act heterosexual with marriage and children?

They don't see marriage and kids as the exclusive provenance of heteros (nor do I).

As for the community pressure: sure, that's going to happen sometimes. Heteros don't have a monopoly on stupid behavior, y'know.

 

[mpshiel]

I recently was in a conversation about homosexuality and an interesting point came up:
This person calimed she was discouraged by her lesbian community from growing her hair and nails long. Now first, I thought the whole 'gay community' thing was a myth we homophobes created, but presumming this is true, why DO male homoseuals often imatate females and vice-versa? It seems to me a female attracted to females would want a partner that looks, well, female. If Gays are infact happy in their lifestyle, why the push to act heterosexual with marriage and children? It seems contradictory to me.

First, there generally is a lesbian community in so much as a group of events or organizations organized by lesbians as well as the house invites, dinners, parties, etc. Many of the events revolve around the need for "safe space" - for instance, where I am lesbian couples who try to take dance classes get a lot of hassle so the OFN started thier own dance lessons for lesbians; in the same way there are women-only discos and dances (because have several couples in thier 40's or 50s trying to make your head explode while dancing with your partner at a traditional dance hall is not fun, niether are stupid guys who come up at clubs and ask "heh, heh, want a three way?").

Generally, the older the lesbian community or the more political it is, the less likely they are to accept lipstick lesbians, or women who, as they see it, buy into all the "feminine wiles" which are used to attract men. Considered that many of these people came out of radical feminism and associated movement, it is not really that surprising. It is kind of the complaint of old anarchists when they see young anarchists smiling, waving and having fun; "Fun! Anarchism isn't about fun, it's about pamphlets, bitterness and the cause!" In general, because they have had to examine who they are, what they do and why they do it most lesbians tend to dress as they want to dress not as society wants them too - though for "baby dykes" and younger lesbians that line is quite blurred. Basically, for a lot of radical feminists and lesbians, they realize that "being female" and "looking female" is about being who you are, not who society says you should be or how you should look. On the other hand, of the 40-50 lesbians I know over 35 only 1 has long hair.

As for attraction, it is really each to thier own though there are strong camps for both elegant butch (Christina Cox, Jeanette Winterson) as well as tomboy fems (like Lara Croft). I myself have a mild thing for preRaph hair like Wendy Crewson, though for an older woman Blondie seems to be looking better and better. Each thier own right?

 

[zoe_uu]

Hi there. Maybe I can answer some of your questions...

I recently was in a conversation about homosexuality and an interesting point came up:
This person calimed she was discouraged by her lesbian community from growing her hair and nails long.

I'm not sure what to say to that really. My lesbian friends nag me about wearing a ball cap too much, wearing athletic clothes all the time, and wear my hair too short. I think it's just the individals the person is around, and not the general consenses of the entire "lesbian community."

Now first, I thought the whole 'gay community' thing was a myth we homophobes created,

Where did you get this idea? Many BGLT people refer to the "gay community" meaning those whose sexuality is not heterosexual. Think of it like the "black community" it's just a broad term to include individuals of that group. Also, think of it in political terms, just like one could say that the "black community" is largely for affirmative action, one could say the "gay community" favors gay marriage and hate crime laws that include sexuality and gender indentity. It's a term that can have positive or negative connotations, depending on which the context in which it is used.

but presumming this is true, why DO male homoseuals often imatate females and vice-versa?

Imitate? I don't see gay men imitating women or lesbians imitating men. I see people just being who they are and sometimes those gender qualities get crossed. No big deal. I wear a ball cap and workout, not because I want to imitate a man, but because I like it and it makes me feel good.

It seems to me a female attracted to females would want a partner that looks, well, female.

Different people are attracted to different phyiscal qualities in a partner. Some would call me "butch" but my partner is frequently getting hit on by men because she is very "feminine" (long hair, polished nails, make-up, tonnes of girly stuff in the bathroom, the whole nine yards).

If Gays are infact happy in their lifestyle, why the push to act heterosexual with marriage and children? It seems contradictory to me.

We are happy. We also want to have families for the same reason heterosexual couples do, in fact (I don't have an excat number for you, sorry) some homosexual couples already have children either through a previous relationship, adoption or IVF. We want the legal right to marriage in order to protect our families and partners, just as heterosexual couples do.

 

[burrow_owl]

I'm not sure what to say to that really. My lesbian friends nag me about wearing a ball cap too much, wearing athletic clothes all the time, and wear my hair too short. I think it's just the individals the person is around, and not the general consenses of the entire "lesbian community."

There's certainly a community which is organized a broad 'consensus,' if you will, on matters political, aesthetic, ethical, etc. Gays are like anyone else in this respect: they spontaneously organize into communities and make use of social signifiers to signal their inclusion in said community, etc.

That's just what people do.

 

[MEOMY]

Imitate? I don't see gay men imitating women or lesbians imitating men. I see people just being who they are and sometimes those gender qualities get crossed. No big deal. I wear a ball cap and workout, not because I want to imitate a man, but because I like it and it makes me feel good.

I pretty much agree with veggie. I used to dress tomboy-ish all the time, guys clothes and nothing else (except the occasional dress to church) but I found that women's clothing is much more comfortable and...I just look better in them. So, my dreesing like a guy most of my life didn't have anything to do with pressure to do so from the "gay community", I didn't even know I was part of that community back then. The only thing I don't do, (that I can think of) is wear make-up. I hate it, always will

With my partner, people never suspect her being a lesbian. She's as girly as they come, make-up and all. So we're both feminine, her more than me.

 

[startinover]

You've been given some great answers already

The gay community is disverse, and there are various types of lesbans -those who are considered butch, those who are feminine- and all of those are attracted to different things.

But like many, I used to think that one could assume that a butch woman would play the 'masculine' role and be attracted to a lipstick lesbian, but I found that its not as simple as that.

People have an exterior appearance, and an inner energy that we dont see. That determines their preference. There are masculine men who play football and hang out with men, but they have sensitive hearts and could be gay or bisexual. Some women are very feminine on the outside, but will be very affirming and attracted to a more sensitive man to be happy. Or a woman. Anyway, I guess there are a lot more complexities to humans romantic/sexual attractions, so there cannot be any generalizations made.

Hence why I don't think one can say "some gay men imitate women", because it supposes that people are what they are on the outside only (gender is skin deep?). But I don't agree with this, because two men can be as similar and they are different. So let's not confuse men as a "social/historic/political etc gender" with men as "biological creature". Just because a man, gay or straight, embraces his social role and wears man's clothes, it doesn't mean he doesn't retain a biological individuality and character singularity. I know some straight men (metrosexuals?) who cook, love Barbra Streisand, dont care for sports and are still are attracted to women. I don't think anyone can come and say "they're not being men", or they need to point out to a good definition anywhere that proves that man is against all the laws of manhood.

Maybe it gets a bit uncomfortable with men who might 'dress up' or wear panties at home, but here again, not everyone has to approve for it to be ok. Women wear boxers or men shirt to unwind sometimes, and its fine: It doesn't mean they don't wish to be female anymore or carry a baby. So clothes are just that, and no gender has exclusive rights to owning, wearing or feeling good in them. And with that im officially done with this post

 

[zoe_uu]

Regarding the title of this thread, "Typically Gay," I don't think there is any BGLT person who is a "Typical Gay." I mean, what would that be anyway? Is there a "Typical Hetero"?

 

[euphoric23]

I recently was in a conversation about homosexuality and an interesting point came up:
This person calimed she was discouraged by her lesbian community from growing her hair and nails long.

Okay, so you have taken the story from one lesbian's perspective and twisted it into some universal truth proving that gays and lesbians are as unstable as your church preaches about them to be?

Now first, I thought the whole 'gay community' thing was a myth we homophobes created, but presumming this is true, why DO male homoseuals often imatate females and vice-versa?

I don't know. Why do some heterosexual women like wearing blue jeans and baggy t-shirts? Why do Scotsmen wear kilts? Why do some heterosexual males like to put on eyeliner and lipstick? It's personal preference. I am bi-sexual. I am attracted to men who wear dark makeup on occasion. This has nothing to do with my physical attraction towards women. If I want a woman then I want a woman. Just like there are lesbian couples where you have one femme and one butch lesbian or two butch lesbians or two femmes. Does it make one couple more "lesbian" than the other? No.

If Gays are infact happy in their lifestyle, why the push to act heterosexual with marriage and children?

Because some people, regardless of their sexual orientation, still harbor the desire to have a family. Most people are inerrantly born with that instinct, regardless of their attraction to one gender over the other.

It seems contradictory to me.

Of course it does. You're against homosexuality so you will nitpick and find any excuse to try and discredit gays and lesbians.

 

[burrow_owl]

It's personal preference.

It's a bit more than that - it's more likely personal preference mediated by group identity. It seems overly-simplistic to just propose that 'all goths like wearing black'. It would make more sense if there is a strong element of personal preference which is then mediated by the desire to communicate group identity or something.

 

[kdet]

I'll just add that all of the lesbians I have known and the male homosexuals I have known have played their gender parts...the typical butch females paired with the femmes and the effeminate males with the butch males. It is amusing those that try to deny this fact when you can go into any homosexual club and see it for yourself.

 

[zoe_uu]

I'll just add that all of the lesbians I have known and the male homosexuals I have known have played their gender parts...the typical butch females paired with the femmes and the effeminate males with the butch males. It is amusing those that try to deny this fact when you can go into any homosexual club and see it for yourself.

No, not all do. But some do, what does it matter anyway?

 

[MEOMY]

I'll just add that all of the lesbians I have known and the male homosexuals I have known have played their gender parts...the typical butch females paired with the femmes and the effeminate males with the butch males. It is amusing those that try to deny this fact when you can go into any homosexual club and see it for yourself.

Nobody's denying anything. There are all types of gay/lesbian couples.

 

[trunks2k]

I'll just add that all of the lesbians I have known and the male homosexuals I have known have played their gender parts...the typical butch females paired with the femmes and the effeminate males with the butch males. It is amusing those that try to deny this fact when you can go into any homosexual club and see it for yourself.

Just to reiterate here. OF course some do fufill gender roles. Others don't. My boyfriend and I don't really fufill feminine/masculine gender roles, altough between the two of us, he's more feminine. And I've been to homosexual clubs, and in my experience the feminine gay men there are a minority. Unless you are on the dance floor, where it's a bit more even, at the club I go to the more "straight" looking/acting guys tend to stick to the bar. The vast majority of guys there, you would never guess were gay unless you talked to them. And there certainly is no strict matching up of fem guys and masculine guys. It's very mixed.

 

[feral]

If Gays are infact happy in their lifestyle, why the push to act heterosexual with marriage and children? It seems contradictory to me.

I suppose that depends on how you define the "gay lifestyle". While the stereotype seems to be hanging out in gay bars and having multiple partners, a lot of homosexuals don't live that way at all. There are of course many heterosexuals and homosexuals who do have casual sex, sleep with a lot of different people and have no intention of staying in a long term relationship, but there are also plenty of people, both gay and straight, who want a serious relationship, monogamy and a settled down life. Many gay and lesbian individuals do long for committment, marriage and family - and why shouldn't they? Being gay doesn't mean you don't want the same things out of life as everyone else.

This person calimed she was discouraged by her lesbian community from growing her hair and nails long. Now first, I thought the whole 'gay community' thing was a myth we homophobes created, but presumming this is true, why DO male homoseuals often imatate females and vice-versa? It seems to me a female attracted to females would want a partner that looks, well, female.

Just as with heterosexuals, gay and lesbian people have individual preferences. While some women do go for the 'butch' look of short, boyish haircuts and masculine clothing, plenty are 'lipstick lesbians' who appreciate the stereotyped femininity of makeup, 'girly' clothes and curves. It is simply a matter of individual taste, just like my personal preference for the long haired, artistic, musical "guys in skirts" type versus my friend's attraction to muscular, athletic 'jock' fellows.

As a side note, I am sorry to hear that your friend was discouraged from expressing herself. I hope she finds better, more secure friends in the future, who don't feel they need to get her to conform.

 

[chalice_thunder]

I'll just add that all of the lesbians I have known and the male homosexuals I have known have played their gender parts...the typical butch females paired with the femmes and the effeminate males with the butch males. It is amusing those that try to deny this fact when you can go into any homosexual club and see it for yourself.

This may be your "amusing" experience - but you are one person. If you took any time to get to know MANY people within the community, you would know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that no one stereotype fits any couple - gay or straight. And the gay clubs I have gone to have proven this. You simply cannot point to a "typical" gay or lesbain any more than you can point to a straight man or woman.

 

[GMRELIC]

I have many gay male friends, and 90% of them are very masculin and don't fit the gay sterotype at all, I also have many straight friends and probably 20% of them do fit the gay sterotype. a person's mannerism has nothing to do with it. sure some gay men are feminine but so are alot of straight guys.