typical penances

[benedictaoo]

Those are the kind of penances I'd rather get. But instead I manage to get the "reflect on the readings of today's Mass" or "pray for all the seminarians" or...

From one priest I get... "just keep living your life..." and that is after I have to ask him for a penance becuase he does not give them...

How you like that??

I usually give myself a penance of trying my best not to talk bad about this priest. The same priest who tells us missing Mass on Sunday is not really a mortal sin.

 

[benedictaoo]

Bene, from my understanding of Orthodoxy, the EO Church teaches that each sin breaks relationship with God, and there's no distinction between mortal/venial sin. (if I'm wrong, someone please correct me)

the Catholic Church teaches that we break friendship with God when we willingly walk away, as you said.

I agree with the rest of your post btw.. that's how I see it too.

but but but if you confess it, what ever it is and make a act of contrition and have a purpose to amend your life (sin no more) then you are free to go to Communion. Penance is to help you atone for the sin and its' effects.

I'm lost on the not being able to receive communion after you have repented and confessed the sin??

Does the EO have such a thing as making a firm purpose of amendment? Meaning, resolving to not commit the sin again and doing what ever it takes to stay away from what leads to the sin?

 

[AMDG]

Frequent Confession is recommended by the late Pope John Paul II. (We receive graces each time we go to Confession.) I found the book, Frequent Confession: Its Place in the Spiritual Life by Benedict Baur helpful.

 

[Anhelyna]

Benedictaoo

In Orthodoxy any sin is a break in the relationship with God - as as been said above.

There is really no distinction between what you understand as venial and mortal - they all damage the relationship.

It is rare for an Orthodox Priest to tell someone to abstain from receiving Communion - and then it is intended to draw the penitent's attention to the fact that he has damaged that relationship by his actions. It gives the penitent time to think about his position and why he has been informed that he should not approach the Chalice . Once he has realised the severity of his actions and confessed to the Priest and accepted that he has to change - metanoia - here meaning changing one's mind, in the sense of embracing thoughts beyond its present limitations or thought patterns (an interpretation which is compatible with the denotative meaning of repentance but replaces its negative connotation with a positive one, focusing on the superior state being approached rather than the inferior prior state being departed from.) then he should confess again and if the priest is satisfied about his repentance then he may administer absolution .

 

[zhilan]

But here is what i don't get.. if there is no mortal sin, ie, a sin that breaks your friendship with God then why do you confess? What is the purpose of the sacrament if it is not to reconcile you back to God when you choose to walk away from Him?

You seem to be saying sins that are harmful to the spiritual life need not only confession but time away from communion becuase we are assuming the person is still attached to the sin and here is where you are losing me, if you confess it, the sin (the actual act) is gone, remembered no more, right? and if we still have a inclination towards the sin, then yes we need to work on it but the sin itself is gone and yes we are to work on the attachment to it but we can't work on it with out Communion, we need Christ. Also penance is issued to atone for the effects, attachment to the sin.

So, I dunno... I honestly don't understand what is a person going to confession for? To be absolved for particular sins or to work on the sin nature? And if you are going to work on the sin nature then you need communion to do that.

Now I can see if a priest hears a person's confession and the person really isn't showing any repentance, then yeah, tell him he can not go to Communion. But that's what priest do too in the Latin rite but it's really if you really show that you aren't sorry.

Bene,

I'm enjoying this discussion and I'm happy to continue it and explain more about our positions, but I'm kind of concerned a mod is going to pop in here and decide I'm debating and next thing I know I have another warning. I've gotten warned for much less, so while to me this seems like a good discussion, is there a way to get a mod blessing to continue this so long as it remains a sort of Q&A/clarifying understanding discussion?

While we wait for that sort of thing, I can give you a small example, the only example that I personally know of of this happening is with a woman who had been married 5 times, decided to convert to Orthodoxy, and during her conversion married a 6th time (outside the church) then divorced that guy. She was given a penance of refraining from communion. In the end she became a nun. =)

 

[MoNiCa4316]

One important part, you do not have to go to confession if it's venail sin, ie what you described as venial sin. An act of contrition is enough and with reception of the Eucharist, even just assisting at Mass washes you clean again.

These sins hurt us and weaken us and run us down (kind of like having the flu) but they do not break our relationship with God the way mortal sin does. IOW, we are sick but not dying. Mortal sin is, we are not merely sick but we are dying.

So as far as the EO view, I'm trying but I really do not understand.

I agree with you, what I meant is just that you can confess venial sins if you want to because that can help you break the bonds of sin

but but but if you confess it, what ever it is and make a act of contrition and have a purpose to amend your life (sin no more) then you are free to go to Communion. Penance is to help you atone for the sin and its' effects.

I'm lost on the not being able to receive communion after you have repented and confessed the sin??

Does the EO have such a thing as making a firm purpose of amendment? Meaning, resolving to not commit the sin again and doing what ever it takes to stay away from what leads to the sin?

I'm kind of lost about the same thing.. hopefully I'll understand more as this discussion goes on though.

Frequent Confession is recommended by the late Pope John Paul II. (We receive graces each time we go to Confession.) I found the book, Frequent Confession: Its Place in the Spiritual Life by Benedict Baur helpful.

Benedictaoo

In Orthodoxy any sin is a break in the relationship with God - as as been said above.

There is really no distinction between what you understand as venial and mortal - they all damage the relationship.

It is rare for an Orthodox Priest to tell someone to abstain from receiving Communion - and then it is intended to draw the penitent's attention to the fact that he has damaged that relationship by his actions. It gives the penitent time to think about his position and why he has been informed that he should not approach the Chalice . Once he has realised the severity of his actions and confessed to the Priest and accepted that he has to change - metanoia - here meaning changing one's mind, in the sense of embracing thoughts beyond its present limitations or thought patterns (an interpretation which is compatible with the denotative meaning of repentance but replaces its negative connotation with a positive one, focusing on the superior state being approached rather than the inferior prior state being departed from.) then he should confess again and if the priest is satisfied about his repentance then he may administer absolution .

can it be said that a person can be told to abstain from Communion if they're unrepentant? I think that's true for Catholicism as well

Bene,

I'm enjoying this discussion and I'm happy to continue it and explain more about our positions, but I'm kind of concerned a mod is going to pop in here and decide I'm debating and next thing I know I have another warning. I've gotten warned for much less, so while to me this seems like a good discussion, is there a way to get a mod blessing to continue this so long as it remains a sort of Q&A/clarifying understanding discussion?

While we wait for that sort of thing, I can give you a small example, the only example that I personally know of of this happening is with a woman who had been married 5 times, decided to convert to Orthodoxy, and during her conversion married a 6th time (outside the church) then divorced that guy. She was given a penance of refraining from communion. In the end she became a nun. =)

wow

I hope it would be possible to get a mod blessing to continue this discussion..

God bless

 

[Caedmon]

The same priest who tells us missing Mass on Sunday is not really a mortal sin.

I've never had a priest tell me that occasionally missing Sunday mass is a mortal sin. And from that counsel, I believe that missing an occasional Sunday mass is not a mortal sin. The explanation I've received time and time again is that going to hell is a process, that no particular sin will instantly damn you, but that a lifetime of consistently, consciously rejecting God is the only way you can "accumulate" mortal sin. Priests are in a position of teaching authority, so that's really the only conclusion that I can come to. Who will fault me for obeying my priests?

 

[Rhamiel]

Who will fault me for obeying my priests?

me
j/k

 

[Mom2Alex]

Yesterday I was asked to pray three hail mary's. This is typical of the priest who was in the confessional. Our pastor typically assigns a reading in the Bible or a new prayer practice of some sort.

 

[InstaurareOmnia]

Our chaplain likes to give out so many Our Father's. Today my penance was 5 of them. He occasionally also comments briefly on some part of that prayer when assigning the penance, tying it in with the advise he has given us.

 

[benedictaoo]

I've never had a priest tell me that occasionally missing Sunday mass is a mortal sin. And from that counsel, I believe that missing an occasional Sunday mass is not a mortal sin. The explanation I've received time and time again is that going to hell is a process, that no particular sin will instantly damn you, but that a lifetime of consistently, consciously rejecting God is the only way you can "accumulate" mortal sin. Priests are in a position of teaching authority, so that's really the only conclusion that I can come to. Who will fault me for obeying my priests?

It is a mortal sin to just opt to hang out at home and not go to Mass. You can obey the priest all you want... but not when you know he is teaching you to sin or that a sin is not really a sin. he does not have the authority to teach ppl to sin.

That is not --at all-- what his authority is. His authority is to teach us the faith. And the faith is not what ever it is he thinks. He is to teach us the faith of the apostles, not his personal beliefs.

It is a sin to miss Mass on Sunday or any other Holy day for no good reason and a priest is out of his mind to tell penitents that is not a sin anymore in the Church. Of course it is.

 

[benedictaoo]

It is rare for an Orthodox Priest to tell someone to abstain from receiving Communion - and then it is intended to draw the penitent's attention to the fact that he has damaged that relationship by his actions. It gives the penitent time to think about his position and why he has been informed that he should not approach the Chalice .

Here is what I think the difference is, when we go to confession, we have come to that knowledgement already that we have sinned and broken the relationship and we are there to make amends, not just to tell the priest we did X and then take it from there.

It's when we find ourselves going to confession every week confessing the same sin over and over there is a problem then the priest needs to step in and get to the bottom of what's going on.

Sadly, the parishes are not set up to accommodate that on a regular Saturday or Sunday confession schedule becuase of time. And also, we penitents sometime go to different priests so he may not be getting the bigger picture here.

 

[Anhelyna]

Now here is the big difference between the Practice of Confession in Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

For most Orthodox their Parish Priest is their Confessor and/or Spiritual Father [ the same usually applies in Eastern Catholicism also ] - parishes tend to be smaller and confession is offered at regular times , normally weekly . It is therefore easier for a Priest to recognise the fact that this penitent is confessing the same things week in and week out - and this is where he can really help.

Yes some of us do have a Spiritual Father who is not our Parish Priest - my SF is in France , others have an SF who is in a monastery and we will normally confess with our SF .

 

[MamaHen]

.

 

[Rowan]

It seems like zhilan's example isn't in the context of confession, the way it's stated, but on observed behavior of a certain parishioner. If so, in this instance I think the penance of being denied communion might be more understandable, and reflects on the Biblical precedence I cited earlier: denial of communion is turning one over to Satan's dominion, so that one might really see the depth of sin and truly repent. Another example is a saint whose memory we celebrated yesterday: St. Ambrose. He barred communion from Emperor Theodosius I for months because of the Emperor's massacre at Thessolonica.

If not, with Anhelyna's point about a regular confessor having a relationship with the penitent, what was said above is how it's been taught to me, even if the penance comes as a result of the penitent actually confessing (rather than just being observed).

I've read about some linking this to the parable of the prodigal son, having had to eat pig slop (turning over to Satan) he "came to himself" (repented -- along with realizing how stupid he was being) and returned to the father.

 

[benedictaoo]

Bene,

I'm enjoying this discussion and I'm happy to continue it and explain more about our positions, but I'm kind of concerned a mod is going to pop in here and decide I'm debating and next thing I know I have another warning. I've gotten warned for much less, so while to me this seems like a good discussion, is there a way to get a mod blessing to continue this so long as it remains a sort of Q&A/clarifying understanding discussion?

While we wait for that sort of thing, I can give you a small example, the only example that I personally know of of this happening is with a woman who had been married 5 times, decided to convert to Orthodoxy, and during her conversion married a 6th time (outside the church) then divorced that guy. She was given a penance of refraining from communion. In the end she became a nun. =)

You are NOT debating at all but answering questions that we ask.. if someone reports you for that, then... you know... shame on them.

but anyway, yeah I can see where that women needed to not take Communion. I do think we need something where the priest recognizes ppl are struggling just to do the right thing and they should be advised to reflect before they receive.

 

[zhilan]

You are NOT debating at all but answering questions that we ask.. if someone reports you for that, then... you know... shame on them.

but anyway, yeah I can see where that women needed to not take Communion. I do think we need something where the priest recognizes ppl are struggling just to do the right thing and they should be advised to reflect before they receive.

Ok, that works for me for now. At least I have someone to vouch for me. Haha, now what was the question again? You want to know why it could be necessary for someone to not receive communion even though they confessed already?

 

[benedictaoo]

It seems like zhilan's example isn't in the context of confession, the way it's stated, but on observed behavior of a certain parishioner. If so, in this instance I think the penance of being denied communion might be more understandable, and reflects on the Biblical precedence I cited earlier: denial of communion is turning one over to Satan's dominion, so that one might really see the depth of sin and truly repent. Another example is a saint whose memory we celebrated yesterday: St. Ambrose. He barred communion from Emperor Theodosius I for months because of the Emperor's massacre at Thessolonica.

If not, with Anhelyna's point about a regular confessor having a relationship with the penitent, what was said above is how it's been taught to me, even if the penance comes as a result of the penitent actually confessing (rather than just being observed).

I've read about some linking this to the parable of the prodigal son, having had to eat pig slop (turning over to Satan) he "came to himself" (repented -- along with realizing how stupid he was being) and returned to the father.

I do also agree. I think it takes a lot more effort, discernment of the priest to tell what's going on in a person's life and that is something I do feel we are missing.

And then there's always spiritual Communion we are to make when ever we can't receive, it's not like we have to always receive if we are not properly disposed. We can make a spiritual Communion and there is grace in that as well.

 

[benedictaoo]

Ok, that works for me for now. At least I have someone to vouch for me. Haha, now what was the question again? You want to know why it could be necessary for someone to not receive communion even though they confessed already?

Something like that...

 

[zhilan]

Well, as I mentioned before, since the two sacraments are not linked, but each standing on their own, being forgiven of your sins is sort of a separate matter from being allowed to receive communion. To make a rather trivial example, let's say someone goes to confession Saturday night (so sins are forgiven), but Sunday morning wakes up and totally forgets that it's Sunday and eats a bowl of cereal before remembering what day it is. Eating that bowl of cereal didn't make them not forgiven for their sins, but it did make them not prepared to receive communion.

The point of that example is only to illustrate how the two are not necessarily linked hand-in-hand. Being prepared to receive communion involves more than just confession. Confession is a -part- of preparation to receive Christ, but it is not the entirety of the preparation. In the case where a priest penanced someone not to receive, that person would be forgiven, but their SF has seen that there is another area in their life that is not yet prepared. In the example of divorce, which is probably the most common reason, it might be that although the person has been forgiven for their sins, they may not yet be able to look on their ex as an icon of Christ, and one belief we have about receiving is that we cannot approach the table of Christ with hatred or anger in our hearts.

Does that make sense or answer your question?