Two Witnesses Question

[NightHawkeye]

Revelation 11:
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Obviously, 3 1/2 years without rain, interpreted literally, would produce severe drought and likely kill nearly eveything on land. That doesn't seem to be implied though.

Instead, the two witnesses seem to be holding back the anti-christ from implementing wanton mayhem and destruction for 3 1/2 years.

Thoughts?

 

[Zadok7000]

Referencing Elijah, IMO, this rain is the Latter Rain.

Jer. 3:3 - Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a harlot's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

James 5:7 - Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I think the two witnesses typify the Law and the Prophets (2 of 3 divisions of the Jewish Scripture.) Jesus said they bore witness of Him, Luke 24:44.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

They are Moses and Elijah, in my opinion, the "two who are annointed to stand before the Lord of all the earth". (Zech)

Zech 4:
11Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.


Matthew 17:3

3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.


And they are doing there thing from the time of the 6th seal until after the 6th trumpet of the 7th seal. The 42 months of the two witnesses overlap with the 42 months of the devil.

 

[Bible2]

Obviously, 3 1/2 years without rain, interpreted literally, would produce severe drought and likely kill nearly eveything on land.

Revelation 11:3,6 will be literal, like James 5:17-18 was literal.

Thoughts?

The two witnesses who will prophesy during the 3.5-year world-reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 11:2-3, cf. Revelation 13:5-7, Revelation 12:6,14) could be Moses and Elijah. For the two people seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). They could come down from heaven during the coming tribulation just as they came down from heaven at the transfiguration. Also, the miracles which will be performed by the two witnesses (Revelation 11:6) will match the miracles performed by Moses and Elijah (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20, Exodus 9:14).

The fact that the two witnesses will be killed (Revelation 11:7-10) doesn't forbid them from being Moses and Elijah, because Elijah never died, but was taken alive into heaven (2 Kings 2:11), and Michael the archangel retrieved the dead body of Moses from the devil (Jude 1:9, cf. Deuteronomy 34:6b); Michael could have then taken Moses' dead body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life like the dead body of Lazarus was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 11:43-44). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive and well at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

 

[Spirit Compass]

Since the Revelation was given with themes that are based on the number 7, I believe that those prophets and leaders who are recorded in the scriptures with reference to being directed to do or prophecy something for the Most High God corresponding with 7 actions will be the two prophetic confirmations revivified to fulfill the role of the two witnesses.

These two would be Joshua and Joseph.

Read about Joshua's military victory here: Joshua Commands the Battle At Jericho - Christian Forums.

Read about Joseph's Dream Interpretation here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7482430/ Two Dreams With One Theme.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

Enoch and Elijah were the only 2 to be received into heaven without the sleep. Elijah was come again as John, and was killed.
Elijah will come again as a man, alive this very day, and Enoch will come from the heavens during the middle of the GT. IMO

I think the holding back of the rains is symbolic of nothing will interfer with their witness. They will be heard day and night for the last 3.5 years.

 

[NJBeliever]

The holding back of rain is literal. The interpretation should be straightforward because the language of the verses is straightforward. Rain = rain.

The two witnesses will be the last two preeminent witnesses to the world before the antichrist becomes full satanically empowered (once Satan is cast out of Heaven). They are using their God-given abilities to demonstrate that they are indeed sent from The Lord and thus their witness is true. I don't think they are holding the antichrist back per se, because he will already be in his ascent to power at this time. But once he reaches the point of supernatural, satanic empowerment, he will kill them, only to see them be resurrected.

 

[crush]

Hi Bible2,

Revelation 11:3,6 will be literal, like James 5:17-18 was literal.

The two witnesses who will prophesy during the 3.5-year world-reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 11:2-3, cf. Revelation 13:5-7, Revelation 12:6,14) could be Moses and Elijah. For the two people seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). They could come down from heaven during the coming tribulation just as they came down from heaven at the transfiguration.

Matt 17 doesn't tell us that Moses and Elijah came from heaven or from where the came. From what I can tell they just appeared out of thin air.

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

The transfiguration was also said to be a vision by Jesus, not an actual occurrence so can't be used as proof that Moses and Elijah are still alive.

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

The fact that the two witnesses will be killed (Revelation 11:7-10) doesn't forbid them from being Moses and Elijah, because Elijah never died, but was taken alive into heaven (2 Kings 2:11), and Michael the archangel retrieved the dead body of Moses from the devil (Jude 1:9, cf. Deuteronomy 34:6b);

On Elisha's deathbed, King Joash sees the same vision of the "chariot of Israel" that Elisha had seen when Elijah was "taken away". An indication that the "chariot of fire" that took Elijah up was spiritual and not physical.

2Ki 13:14 Now Elisha was fallen sick of his sickness whereof he died. And Joash the king of Israel came down unto him, and wept over his face, and said, O my father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof.

2Ki 2:12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

Also, as a condition of receiving the double-portion of Elijah's spirit, Elisha had to see Elijah being taken away from him. If Elisha hadn't see Elijah being taken away by the chariot of fire he would not have received the "spirit".

2Ki 2:10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.

Since it would be pretty hard not to see an actual physical chariot of fire passing between you and your buddy, i'm thinking that the chariot could only be seen in the spiritual realm otherwise Elijah's conditional statement doesn't make much sense. Seeing how this "chariot of fire" is associated with death in 2Ki 13:14, my theory is that Elijah died in that moment and God took away his dead body in the whirlwind and hid it somewhere so it couldn't be found because....

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Hi alimighty's humble servant,

Enoch and Elijah were the only 2 to be received into heaven without the sleep. Elijah was come again as John, and was killed.
Elijah will come again as a man, alive this very day, and Enoch will come from the heavens during the middle of the GT. IMO

I think the holding back of the rains is symbolic of nothing will interfer with their witness. They will be heard day and night for the last 3.5 years.

According to Hebrews 11, Enoch died. He is included in a list of great people of faith which according to 11:13 ALL DIED

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

God bless you both,
crush

 

[NightHawkeye]

Referencing Elijah, IMO, this rain is the Latter Rain.

Jer. 3:3 - Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a harlot's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

James 5:7 - Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Thank you, Zadok. I think this is right. I didn't quite understand yesterday, but it's beginning to make sense today.

 

[GrowingInGrace]

The two witnesses are prophets who pronounce judgement upon the earth against the antichrist and false prophet, the judgements effecting everyone who accepted their rule (all who took the mark of the beast).

I believe that the judgements would be literal. But I also believe that the judgements would only effect the area in which the antichrist has jurisdiction. And only in that area where the prophets themselves would be. Meaning that total lack of rain for three and a half years would not be global, but similar to the plagues that effected Egypt while it did not effect those in the land of Goshen.

It's my vote that the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah. Hebrews 11:5 states, Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death. He was not found because God took him up. Elijah was also taken up 2 Kings 2:11 without dying. He prayed that the rain stop for 3.5 years.

Turning water to blood and causing plagues brings Moses to mind. But since Elisha had evidence of the spirit of Elijah upon him, it's possible that Enoch would have the spirit of Moses upon him.
Since Moses died once it's not likely that he would die again. (Hebrews 9:27).

At the appearance of Moses with Elijah during Jesus' transfiguration there was no clear indication that they were the two witnesses of Revelation.
Perhaps at that time Elijah represented all those who remain alive until Jesus comes, since Elijah was raptured alive. While Moses represented all those who die before Jesus comes.

 

[Bible2]

Matt 17 doesn't tell us that Moses and Elijah came from heaven or from where the came. From what I can tell they just appeared out of thin air.

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Moses and Elijah could have appeared at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3) by coming down from heaven. For Elijah never died, but was taken alive into heaven (2 Kings 2:11), and Michael the archangel retrieved the dead body of Moses from the devil (Jude 1:9, cf. Deuteronomy 34:6b); Michael could have then taken Moses' dead body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life like the dead body of Lazarus was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive and well at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The transfiguration was also said to be a vision by Jesus, not an actual occurrence so can't be used as proof that Moses and Elijah are still alive.

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

In Matthew 17:9, the original Greek word translated as "vision" (G3705) can refer to an actual occurrrence, because it simply means something that is seen (cf. Mark 9:9, Luke 9:36). Like Moses' "sight" (G3705) of the burning bush (Acts 7:31): it actually happened; God actually told Moses what to do (Exodus 3:2-4:17). And Ananias' "vision" of Jesus actually happened: Jesus actually told him what to do (Acts 9:10-17). And Cornelius' "vision" of an angel actually happened: the angel actually told him what to do (Acts 10:3-8). And Paul's "vision" of Jesus actually happened: Jesus actually told him what to do (Acts 18:9-11). So the apostles' "vision" (Matthew 17:9), their "seeing" (Mark 9:9, Luke 9:36), of Moses and Elijah could have actually happened: Moses and Elijah could have actually been sent down from heaven by God to speak with Jesus about his impending death (Luke 9:30-31). They could have been sent to encourage Jesus, like God later sent an angel to strengthen Jesus before his death (Luke 22:42-43). And Moses and Elijah could be sent to the earth again during the latter half of the coming tribulation (Revelation 11:3), but this time to perform the same miracles of judgment (Revelation 11:6) that they performed during their first time on the earth (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20, Exodus 9:14).

On Elisha's deathbed, King Joash sees the same vision of the "chariot of Israel" that Elisha had seen when Elijah was "taken away". An indication that the "chariot of fire" that took Elijah up was spiritual and not physical.

Nothing requires that 2 Kings 13:14 was a vision, instead of just a statement by Joash. Also, it doesn't matter if the chariot that took Elijah up was spiritual; it was still real, and so it was able to really take Elijah up into heaven (2 Kings 2:11).

Seeing how this "chariot of fire" is associated with death in 2Ki 13:14, my theory is that Elijah died in that moment and God took away his dead body in the whirlwind and hid it somewhere so it couldn't be found because....

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Joash's statement in 2 Kings 13:14 could simply mean that Joash wanted God to send a chariot to take Elisha alive into heaven in the same manner that God sent a chariot to take Elijah alive into heaven (2 Kings 2:11). God also physically took Enoch alive into heaven, so that Enoch wouldn't see death (Hebrews 11:5). (Hebrews 11:5 is a specific exception to the general statement of Hebrews 11:13, just as Luke 7:12-15, John 12:1, Acts 9:36-41, and 1 Corinthians 15:51 are specific exceptions to the general statement of Hebrews 9:27. The original Greek word translated as "all" in Hebrews 11:13 doesn't have to mean absolutely all. For example, it doesn't mean absolutely all in John 3:26.)

John 3:13 must mean that no man but Jesus had physically ascended into heaven by his own power, for Elijah did physically ascend into heaven by God's power (2 Kings 2:11), and Enoch did physically ascend into heaven by God's power so that Enoch wouldn't see death (Hebrews 11:5).

 

[Zadok7000]

Thank you, Zadok. I think this is right. I didn't quite understand yesterday, but it's beginning to make sense today.

I'm not sure why eveyone else is talking about who the 2 will be, that's not what you asked...

 

[Steve Petersen]

The two witnesses are prophets who pronounce judgement upon the earth against the antichrist and false prophet, the judgements effecting everyone who accepted their rule (all who took the mark of the beast).

I believe that the judgements would be literal. But I also believe that the judgements would only effect the area in which the antichrist has jurisdiction. And only in that area where the prophets themselves would be. Meaning that total lack of rain for three and a half years would not be global, but similar to the plagues that effected Egypt while it did not effect those in the land of Goshen.

It's my vote that the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah. Hebrews 11:5 states, Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death. He was not found because God took him up. Elijah was also taken up 2 Kings 2:11 without dying. He prayed that the rain stop for 3.5 years.

Turning water to blood and causing plagues brings Moses to mind. But since Elisha had evidence of the spirit of Elijah upon him, it's possible that Enoch would have the spirit of Moses upon him.
Since Moses died once it's not likely that he would die again. (Hebrews 9:27).

At the appearance of Moses with Elijah during Jesus' transfiguration there was no clear indication that they were the two witnesses of Revelation.
Perhaps at that time Elijah represented all those who remain alive until Jesus comes, since Elijah was raptured alive. While Moses represented all those who die before Jesus comes.

People that Jesus resurrected died again. Why can't Moses if he is resurrected?

 

[crush]

Hi Bible2,

Moses and Elijah could have appeared at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3) by coming down from heaven. For Elijah never died, but was taken alive into heaven (2 Kings 2:11), and Michael the archangel retrieved the dead body of Moses from the devil (Jude 1:9, cf. Deuteronomy 34:6b); Michael could have then taken Moses' dead body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life like the dead body of Lazarus was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive and well at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. From a reading of Jude 1:9 I do not get the impression that the body of Moses was in the possession of the Devil as you imply here - "and Michael the archangel retrieved the dead body of Moses from the devil"

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

It seems to me that there was simply a dispute between Michael and Satan over his dead body, implying that they each had intentions for the corpse, but neither had clear possession of it at the time of the argument. From your scenario I'm assuming that you believe that some time after God buried Moses secretly Michael and Satan contended over his dead body. Then the victor of the dispute, Michael, dug up the body from it's secret burial place at which time Moses was resurrected. Is this correct?

I understand that this is the traditional understanding of the events, but have you considered the possibility that the dispute between Michael and Satan occurs before Moses is buried secretly? That Michael is sent to bury Moses secretly on behalf of God and Satan objects to this secret burial?

The only things we know as scriptural facts from comparing Jude 1:9 with Deuteronomy 34:6 are that Moses was buried secretly by God, and Michael and Satan had a dispute over his body. If the Lord sent Michael to bury Moses in the valley of Moab, and Satan tried to impede this task, then the two scriptures would fit together with the least amount of conjecture on our part IMO.

I realize that you are using Matt 17 to support this idea that Moses had indeed been resurrected at some point after his death. But I don't think you can be certain about this as the events of the transfiguration could have been a shared vision as I pointed out in my previous post. I tend to lean towards this scene being a vision, among other reasons because the apostles seemed to immediately recognize Elijah and Moses even though they'd really have no idea what they actually looked like in person. It seems to be the kind of knowledge that accompanies a vision IMO. Why didn't they immediately assume that the two figures speaking to Jesus were Angels, or David and Daniel, or two other characters?

Or, if the two figures speaking to Jesus were the actual Elijah and Moses as you seem to prefer, it could have been that their disembodied souls were brought up from Sheol for this occasion as the soul of Samuel was in 1Sa 28:13. Which seemed to have the appearance of "gods ascending from the earth" which would explain why they "appeared in glory" [Luk 9:3], but were still recognizable as their former, living selves.

Nothing requires that 2 Kings 13:14 was a vision, instead of just a statement by Joash. Also, it doesn't matter if the chariot that took Elijah up was spiritual; it was still real, and so it was able to really take Elijah up into heaven (2 Kings 2:11). Joash's statement in 2 Kings 13:14 could simply mean that Joash wanted God to send a chariot to take Elisha alive into heaven in the same manner that God sent a chariot to take Elijah alive into heaven (2 Kings 2:11).

I just find it very interesting that Joash would make the exact same statement upon Elisha's deathbead that Elisha had made upon seeing the Chariot of Fire. If it was a prayer as you suggest, it would seem to be a prayer for those about to die.

God also physically took Enoch alive into heaven, so that Enoch wouldn't see death (Hebrews 11:5).

I'm not aware of any scripture within the canon that says that Enoch was taken alive into heaven. Hebrews 11:5 which you cite simply says that Enoch was "translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him". The term "translated" does not mean taken to heaven. The word has a variety of applications, but literally means to transport, move from one place to another place. So while this could mean that Enoch was transported from Earth to Heaven, it can also mean that he was transported from one place on Earth to another place on Earth. I think that you understand that Enoch was not "changed", that is changed from a mortal to an immortal, as some interpret "metatithemi" because Christ alone has experienced this type of translation so far [1Ti 6:16].

G3346
μετατίθημι
metatithēmi
met-at-ith'-ay-mee
From G3326 and G5087; to transfer, that is, (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert: - carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.

I think that we are both in agreement that the proper application of "metatithemi" in 11:5 is to transport. But I think that him being moved to heaven is an assumption. The reason he was "translated" is given....."so he would not taste death". I completely understand why you believe that this means "so he would never die" from this verse alone. But when you bring 11:13 to bear, it must affect the understanding of this phrase IMO.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

If Enoch was taken to heaven and is still alive at this very day in his natural body then He did not die as the writer of Hebrews says all these people of faith did. He did not only see the promises afar off, he also has witnessed them first hand. The promises being the "heavenly country of 11:16. Enoch had been living in this heavenly country for thousands of years at the time Hebrews was written.

Anyway, as an alternate interpretation of Heb 11:5 keeping 11:13 in mind, I would say that Enoch's life was in danger and God moved him from one location to another safer location (translated him) on Earth so he wouldn't die (taste death) at that present time. He later died of course, but his whereabouts were unknown and only recorded up until the time of this "translation".

The original Greek word translated as "all" in Hebrews 11:13 doesn't have to mean absolutely all. For example, it doesn't mean absolutely all in John 3:26.)

Hebrews 11 is in an ordered list format that requires the more formal application of G3956. An example of this application would be if you had a grocery list consisting of milk, eggs and bread, you couldn't say that you got "all" that was on your list if you forgot the bread.

John 3:13 must mean that no man but Jesus had physically ascended into heaven by his own power, for Elijah did physically ascend into heaven by God's power (2 Kings 2:11), and Enoch did physically ascend into heaven by God's power so that Enoch wouldn't see death (Hebrews 11:5).

Jesus is both said to have "ascended" (Eph 4:8, Eph 4:9, Joh 3:13) into heaven and been "taken up" into heaven (Act 1:11, Act 1:22)

We can know that Jesus was "taken up" into heaven because while it's possible to ascend either by your own power or the power of another. It's only possible to be "taken up" by the power of another.

God bless you,
crush

 

[GrowingInGrace]

People that Jesus resurrected died again. Why can't Moses if he is resurrected?

Why use someone whom God would have to resurrect when he's got two already that have not died but where taken up still alive? Two who would only die once when the anti-christ kills them. Two who would only be resurrected once after three days then ascend up to heaven.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 11:
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Obviously, 3 1/2 years without rain, interpreted literally, would produce severe drought and likely kill nearly eveything on land. That doesn't seem to be implied though.

Instead, the two witnesses seem to be holding back the anti-christ from implementing wanton mayhem and destruction for 3 1/2 years.

Thoughts?

Hi Nighthawkeye, the AC beast from the bottomless pit makes war against the two witnesses at the end of their testimony, Rev 11:7. It is during that brief period - approximately 75 days that the two prophets will be issuing the world wide plagues - that has the nations so upset that when the AC kills the two witnesses, the nations will rejoice that they are dead.

Here is a chart that you might find interesting. Please note that in Revelation 13:4 the world says who can make war against the beast. This because the beast had just killed the two witnesses in Revelation 11.

Doug L.

 

[Bible2]

From a reading of Jude 1:9 I do not get the impression that the body of Moses was in the possession of the Devil as you imply here - "and Michael the archangel retrieved the dead body of Moses from the devil"

From a reading of the last part of Hebrews 2:14, it would make sense that the devil would have had possession of the dead body of Moses (Jude 1:9).

If the Lord sent Michael to bury Moses in the valley of Moab, and Satan tried to impede this task, then the two scriptures would fit together with the least amount of conjecture on our part IMO.

It would add conjecture to say that Jude 1:9 is referring only to a dispute over the burial of Moses' body, since Jude 1:9 makes no reference to the burial, but only to the body.

It's said (and it could very well be true) that Jude 1:9 is referring to a (now-lost) end-portion of an ancient Jewish writing called "The Assumption of Moses" (or "The Ascension of Moses"), which end-portion referred to a contention over the possession of the dead body of Moses. The title of the work would mean that Michael prevailed and took Moses into heaven, like how God took Elijah into heaven (2 Kings 2:11) and Enoch into heaven (Hebrews 11:5).

I tend to lean towards this scene being a vision, among other reasons because the apostles seemed to immediately recognize Elijah and Moses even though they'd really have no idea what they actually looked like in person.

God could have miraculously imparted to the apostles' the knowledge of who they were actually seeing (Mark 9:5), for regarding Matthew 17:9, the original Greek word translated as "vision" (G3705) can refer to an actual occurrrence, because it simply means something that is seen (cf. Mark 9:9, Luke 9:36). Like Moses' "sight" (G3705) of the burning bush (Acts 7:31): it actually happened; God actually told Moses what to do (Exodus 3:2-4:17). And Ananias' "vision" of Jesus actually happened: Jesus actually told him what to do (Acts 9:10-17). And Cornelius' "vision" of an angel actually happened: the angel actually told him what to do (Acts 10:3-8). And Paul's "vision" of Jesus actually happened: Jesus actually told him what to do (Acts 18:9-11). So the apostles' "vision" (Matthew 17:9), their "seeing" (Mark 9:9, Luke 9:36), of Moses and Elijah could have actually happened: Moses and Elijah could have actually been sent down from heaven by God to speak with Jesus about his impending death (Luke 9:30-31). They could have been sent to encourage Jesus, like God later sent an angel to strengthen Jesus before his death (Luke 22:42-43). And Moses and Elijah could be sent to the earth again during the latter half of the coming tribulation (Revelation 11:3), but this time to perform the same miracles of judgment (Revelation 11:6) that they performed during their first time on the earth (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20, Exodus 9:14).

Or, if the two figures speaking to Jesus were the actual Elijah and Moses as you seem to prefer, it could have been that their disembodied souls were brought up from Sheol for this occasion as the soul of Samuel was in 1Sa 28:13.

Just as Elijah and Enoch never died, but were taken alive by God into heaven (2 Kings 2:11, Hebrews 11:5), so after Michael took Moses' body into heaven, it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life like the dead body of Lazarus was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 12:1). Then both Elijah and Moses could come back down from heaven in their physical bodies to appear alive and well at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

I just find it very interesting that Joash would make the exact same statement upon Elisha's deathbead that Elisha had made upon seeing the Chariot of Fire. If it was a prayer as you suggest, it would seem to be a prayer for those about to die.

Elisha made the statement in 2 Kings 2:12 only after he actually saw the means by which Elijah was taken alive into heaven (2 Kings 2:11), not a means by which Elijah was to be killed. Joash's statement in 2 Kings 13:14 could simply mean that Joash wanted God to take Elisha alive into heaven in the same manner as Elijah.

So while this could mean that Enoch was transported from Earth to Heaven, it can also mean that he was transported from one place on Earth to another place on Earth.

The implication of Hebrews 11:5 is that God took Enoch to be with him in heaven (like God took Elijah to be with him in heaven: 2 Kings 2:11) because Enoch pleased God. There's no suggestion that God simply took Enoch somewhere else on the earth. The fact that Enoch "was not found" (Hebrews 11:5) and "was not, for God took him" (Genesis 5:24) implies that he was no longer on the earth, but had been taken by God into heaven.

I completely understand why you believe that this means "so he would never die" from this verse alone. But when you bring 11:13 to bear, it must affect the understanding of this phrase IMO.

Hebrews 11:5 is a specific exception to the general statement of Hebrews 11:13, just as Luke 7:12-15, John 12:1, Acts 9:36-41, and 1 Corinthians 15:51 are specific exceptions to the general statement of Hebrews 9:27. The original Greek word translated as "all" in Hebrews 11:13 doesn't have to mean absolutely all. For example, it doesn't mean absolutely all in John 3:26.

Hebrews 11 is in an ordered list format that requires the more formal application of G3956.

G3956 can be translated as "as many as" (John 17:2, Acts 5:11). So Hebrews 11:13 can be read as "as many as" those in the above list who died, died in faith.

It's only possible to be "taken up" by the power of another.

The passive-voice ascension in Acts 1:11 and the active-voice ascension in Ephesians 4:8 mean that Jesus ascended into heaven by both an external power and his own power. But John 3:13 was spoken years before Acts 1:11 and Ephesians 4:8 occurred, and John 3:13 was referring to an already-occurred active-voice ascension of Jesus into heaven, meaning that it at least involved his own power. So John 3:13 can mean that no man but Jesus had ascended into heaven in a way that involved his own power, for Elijah did ascend into heaven solely by God's power (2 Kings 2:11), and Enoch did ascend into heaven solely by God's power (Hebrews 11:5).

 

[crush]

Hi Bible2,

The condition you've placed on John 3:13 isn't present or inferred in the text as far as I can tell. To "ascend" does not only mean to rise under your own power, but also can as easily mean to rise under the power of another.

I can "ascend" to the top of a building using the stairs (under my own power) or by using an elevator (not under my own power). Either way is equally acceptable. So when Christ said that "No man has ascended to heaven" it means no man had gone up to heaven by any means. Until you can solve 3:13, I can't accept your interpretations of Elijah, Enoch, or Moses have ascended to heaven prior to Christ's statement in 3:13 as being truth.

God bless you,
crush

G305
ἀναβαίνω
anabainō
an-ab-ah'ee-no
From G303 and the base of G939; to go up (literally or figuratively): - arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).

 

[Bible2]

To "ascend" does not only mean to rise under your own power, but also can as easily mean to rise under the power of another.

Someone having ascended in the Greek active voice (John 3:13) (as opposed to the passive voice) can mean that he had ascended in a way that involved his own power.

So when Christ said that "No man has ascended to heaven" it means no man had gone up to heaven by any means.

Not necessarily; John 3:13 can mean that no man but Jesus had ascended into heaven in a way that involved his own power.

I can't accept your interpretations of Elijah, Enoch, or Moses have ascended to heaven prior to Christ's statement in 3:13

None of them ascended in a way that involved their own power.