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Two types of righteousness...

maco

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There are two types of righteousness, one is positional and one is practical. Positional righteousness is how God views us in Christ, practical righteousness are the right things we do.

When the Bible says there is none righteous it's referring to positional righteousness, it's not saying that no one does right things because there are many people who do right things. Listen.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousness are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Notice how it says, "All our righteousness is as filthy rags". It's not saying we have no righteousness, it's saying the righteousness that we do have are as filthy rags. The reason for this is because our righteousness is coming from a tainted source. It's coming from someone who is positionally unrighteous outside of Christ.

Let me give you an example. Let's say you are driving down the road and you see a bunch of men cleaning up the highway. All these men are wearing orange jump suits. No matter how much trash they pick up or how beautiful they make the road look they are still wearing the orange jump suit. They need to go before the court to have their orange jump suit removed. If they try any other way to remove their jump suit they will be subject to more time. Not only that, no matter how much trash they pick up or how beautiful they make the road look they will still be wearing that orange jump suit.

Our righteous works may look the same, whether in the orange jump suit or not, it's the orange jump suit that's the issue. This is why it's hard for some people to see their need for Christ because they are not really a bad person, they don't know that God sees them in their orange jump suit. Another problem is that today, most of the world accepts the orange jump suit and some even find it fashionable.

When we turn to Christ, the orange jump suit is removed and we put on a new suit.

Zechariah 3:1-5 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before the Angel. Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, “Take away the filthy garments from him.” And to him He said, “See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes.” And I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head, and they put the clothes on him. And the Angel of the Lord stood by.

In Christ we will still have righteous works but now they are accepted because we are now positionally righteous. The good works that we do now become the fruit of a new nature because we are now part of God’s family through a new birth.

1 John John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Notice how is it says we practice righteousness? Practice means we get better at it as time goes on. This also means that if someone is not very good at it, it doesn't mean they are not positionally right with God. Being positionally right with God is a free gift through Christ but doing what is right is a learned and practiced behavior that one gets better at as God matures them in Christ.

Hebrews 12:5-11 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.” Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
 

Soyeong

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Good post, I was actually thinking of posting something along these lines. There is a righteousness that comes from doing what is right in obedience to God's commands and a righteousness of God that comes by faith. Both are good, but both have different purposes that shouldn't be crossed. God is holy and good, so his standard of righteousness is perfection, which we all fall short of, so there is no way for us to become justified by living righteously, but that doesn't mean it's not good to live righteously. In fact, we are declared righteous and set free from sin so that through His Spirit we can live righteously.
 
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Soyeong

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Hey, welcome back, maco.

Nope. We bear the fruit of the Spirit by abiding in Christ, not by "doing".

We abide in Christ for the purpose of doing:

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

1 John 3:4-10 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
 
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Steeno7

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Good post, I was actually thinking of posting something along these lines. There is a righteousness that comes from doing what is right in obedience to God's commands and a righteousness of God that comes by faith. Both are good, but both have different purposes that shouldn't be crossed. God is holy and good, so his standard of righteousness is perfection, which we all fall short of, so there is no way for us to become justified by living righteously, but that doesn't mean it's not good to live righteously. In fact, we are declared righteous and set free from sin so that through His Spirit we can live righteously.

Nope. Philippians 3
 
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Steeno7

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We abide in Christ for the purpose of doing:

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

1 John 3:4-10 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.



Nope. We abide in Christ for the purpose of Him producing His fruit through us.
 
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Soyeong

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Nope. Philippians 3

Philippians 3 is a great example that supports what I was saying about how the two types of righteousness shouldn't be crossed, thanks for citing it. Paul was arguing against those who were trying to become justified by keeping the law. Since we all fall short, our efforts to be declared righteous by living righteously are all worth nothing. But we were never instructed to practice righteousness for the purpose of being declared righteous in the first place, so that does not mean that we shouldn't practice righteousness through His Spirit.

Nope. We abide in Christ for the purpose of Him producing His fruit through us.

I never said differently. The fruit that God produces in us is good works.
 
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Steeno7

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Philippians 3 is a great example that supports what I was saying about how the two types of righteousness shouldn't be crossed, thanks for citing it. Paul was arguing against those who were trying to become justified by keeping the law. Since we all fall short, our efforts to be declared righteous by living righteously are all worth nothing. But we were never instructed to practice righteousness for the purpose of being declared righteous in the first place, so that does not mean that we shouldn't practice righteousness through His Spirit.

I never said differently. The fruit that God produces in us is good works.

What Philippians 3 tells us is that there are two kinds of righteousness, the righteousness of Christ and self-righteousness. There is only one of those that God accepts as legitimate. Can you guess which?
 
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Soyeong

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What Philippians 3 tells us is that there are two kinds of righteousness, the righteousness of Christ and self-righteousness. There is only one of those that God accepts as legitimate. Can you guess which?

Living righteously means to live rightly in obedience to God's instructions. Living sinfully is the opposite and means to live wrongly in disobedience to God's instructions. The righteousness of Christ is perfect obedience to God's instructions. Self-righteousness is imperfect obedience to God's instructions though our own efforts.

Because of our sin nature, we can't obtain the righteousness of Christ through our own efforts, so God has to set us free from our sin nature and give us His Spirit so that through Him we can become slaves to obedience, which leads to righteousness and sanctification. Sanctification is the process of conforming us to the character of Christ in his perfect obedience to God's instructions.
 
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Steeno7

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Living righteously means to live rightly in obedience to God's instructions. Living sinfully is the opposite and means to live wrongly in disobedience to God's instructions. The righteousness of Christ is perfect obedience to God's instructions. Self-righteousness is imperfect obedience to God's instructions though our own efforts.

Because of our sin nature, we can't obtain the righteousness of Christ through our own efforts, so God has to set us free from our sin nature and give us His Spirit so that through Him we can become slaves to obedience, which leads to righteousness and sanctification. Sanctification is the process of conforming us to the character of Christ in his perfect obedience to God's instructions.

What did Paul say in Philippians 3 about the righteousness he had obtained through his perfect obedience to what you are calling Gods "instructions"???
 
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maco

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Good post, I was actually thinking of posting something along these lines. There is a righteousness that comes from doing what is right in obedience to God's commands and a righteousness of God that comes by faith. Both are good, but both have different purposes that shouldn't be crossed. God is holy and good, so his standard of righteousness is perfection, which we all fall short of, so there is no way for us to become justified by living righteously, but that doesn't mean it's not good to live righteously. In fact, we are declared righteous and set free from sin so that through His Spirit we can live righteously.

Thank you for the encouragement. To me, when it comes to God, it has always been about works that are accepted or not accepted. As long as we have the orange jumpsuit our works are tainted and unacceptable to God. You may even be obeying the law even honoring the seventh day Sabbath but as long as you have the orange jumpsuit it's considered a debt that we can't even pay. Jesus removes the meritorious mindset we have in all our works. Not having a meritorious mindset also does away with any judgmental attitudes we have towards others and any self condemnation we might be carrying around due to our short falls and weaknesses. The wisdom of God is awesome!
 
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Soyeong

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What did Paul say in Philippians 3 about the righteousness he had obtained through his perfect obedience to what you are calling Gods "instructions"???

Paul claimed that we have all sinned and all fallen short and that he was the chief of sinners, so he was by no means saying that he lived in perfect obedience to God's instructions. Blameless does not mean sinless, but rather it means that his sins were covered. The only one who was sinless/followed God's instructions perfectly was Jesus.

But as righteous as Paul was in his own effort to become justified by keeping the law, it was all worthless to him because was impossible for him to do. It's like making payments toward something that you'll get once you've paid an infinite amount of money - no matter how good you are at making payments, your efforts are in vain and you're not getting anything from doing it.

However, if you look at all the verses in the Bible that talk about doing good works/being obedient to God/practicing righteousness, you will see that it is a good thing to do, it's just not good for the purpose of trying to become justified. The problem with a lot of Christian theology today is that it treats justification as though it's the goal of Christianity rather than the beginning. After justification begins the lifelong process of sanctification, in which His Spirit works in us to conform us to be more like Christ in his perfect obedience to God's instructions. If we put good works before justification, then we put the cart before the horse, but that doesn't mean good works don't have a place in the Christian walk, but rather that's exactly what we were created in Christ Jesus to do.
 
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Steeno7

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Paul claimed that we have all sinned and all fallen short and that he was the chief of sinners, so he was by no means saying that he lived in perfect obedience to God's instructions. Blameless does not mean sinless, but rather it means that his sins were covered. The only one who was sinless/followed God's instructions perfectly was Jesus.

But as righteous as Paul was in his own effort to become justified by keeping the law, it was all worthless to him because was impossible for him to do. It's like making payments toward something that you'll get once you've paid an infinite amount of money - no matter how good you are at making payments, your efforts are in vain and you're not getting anything from doing it.

However, if you look at all the verses in the Bible that talk about doing good works/being obedient to God/practicing righteousness, you will see that it is a good thing to do, it's just not good for the purpose of trying to become justified. The problem with a lot of Christian theology today is that it treats justification as though it's the goal of Christianity rather than the beginning. After justification begins the lifelong process of sanctification, in which His Spirit works in us to conform us to be more like Christ in his perfect obedience to God's instructions. If we put good works before justification, then we put the cart before the horse, but that doesn't mean good works don't have a place in the Christian walk, but rather that's exactly what we were created in Christ Jesus to do.

All very interesting, I am sure. To answer the question asked, Paul called his perfect obedience a big pile of stinking dung. So much for your righteousness.
 
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Frogster

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Philippians 3 is a great example that supports what I was saying about how the two types of righteousness shouldn't be crossed, thanks for citing it. Paul was arguing against those who were trying to become justified by keeping the law. Since we all fall short, our efforts to be declared righteous by living righteously are all worth nothing. But we were never instructed to practice righteousness for the purpose of being declared righteous in the first place, so that does not mean that we shouldn't practice righteousness through His Spirit.



I never said differently. The fruit that God produces in us is good works.

bro, I have many times said, and can prove, that law SANCTIFICATION, was more of the issue in the Pauline corpus..

In Gal, Phil, and Col were they already saved? Yes, but the law people were trying to get them to be SANCTIFIED by law, to now live by law after imputation. Sanctification, via the flesh does not work see Gal 3:3, just as law justification does not work.

That is why in Ephesus, Paul told Tim, in 1 Tim 1, keep those law boys out of the church, away from the already justified, they,the law party, don't know what they are talking about.

Same in Titus, they were trying, the circumcision were, to get the ALREADY SAVED, to live out law SANCTIFICATION.

You simply must see this, because that was the crux for the churches, they were already saved, but Judaizers were seeking to now ADD law, keep feasts, keep food laws etc, to be 'holy".

Think about it, the sneaky way was to now say, to live a holy life, the churches had to live as Jews under law.:preach:

That is like today, the same message is trying to spread, keep Judaism to be 'holy'.;)

Paul was fighting law sanctification, more than law justification, he had to be, they were ALREADY saved/justified, they knew that, but in each epistle, the issue was to ADD LAW...
 
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Soyeong

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All very interesting, I am sure. To answer the question asked, Paul called his perfect obedience a big pile of stinking dung. So much for your righteousness.

Thanks for completely missing the point of my post. If we're trying to become justified by our own efforts, then our self-righteousness amounts to dung. But if we are doing good works as an expression of our love and faith in God as the result of His Spirit working in us, then we are doing what Christ has called us to do.
 
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Steeno7

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Thanks for completely missing the point of my post. If we're trying to become justified by our own efforts, then our self-righteousness amounts to dung. But if we are doing good works as an expression of our love and faith in God as the result of His Spirit working in us, then we are doing what Christ has called us to do.

You weren't asked to make a point, you were asked to answer the question that was asked. You didn't, so I answered it for you. You should consider it well.
 
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bugkiller

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Thanks for completely missing the point of my post. If we're trying to become justified by our own efforts, then our self-righteousness amounts to dung. But if we are doing good works as an expression of our love and faith in God as the result of His Spirit working in us, then we are doing what Christ has called us to do.
Good works and works of the law are two different things.

bugkiller
 
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Soyeong

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Good works and works of the law are two different things.

Indeed, "good works" are found in God's instructions for how to live righteously while "works of the law" are are man-made instructions for how they thought God's instructions were supposed to be followed.
 
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Soyeong

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You weren't asked to make a point, you were asked to answer the question that was asked. You didn't, so I answered it for you. You should consider it well.

I said he thought they were worthless, which is close enough to dung that I'm not sure why you're quibbling about it. It's much more important for you to understand what Paul was talking about.
 
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