Two stories, which one is right?

[pasadi]

Apostles James,Peter and Apostle and Evangelist Mark wrote Holy Liturgies centered on sacrament of Holy Communion so there is no doubt that the Early Church was both sacramental and Liturgical as were all Churches before 1500. Apostle James was the leader of the Church in Acts of Apostles from Bible and wrote Holy Liturgy of Apostle James . The Liturgy is step by step Sunday Celebration in Early Church.


First story:

Jesus God established the sacramental and Liturgical Church in year 30+ and it failed soon. After 1500 years of "error" Luther, a man, established the true Church that was still Liturgical and sacramental. Oh no! Wait ... that was error because it was John Knox that established the true non liturgical and non sacramental Presbyterian Church. No! Wait!....that was error because it was Henry of England that established the True Church a sacramental and Liturgical Anglican Church. Oh no! Wait!....that was error because it was Charles Wesley that established a different True Church , the Methodist Church...Oh no wait...

That is GOD made a Church that resisted for several years then felt and was unable for 1500 years to escape error then a MAN made a Church that resisted for hundreds of years, without same belief as original Church sometime without sacraments and Liturgy as Church in the time of Apostles had.

Even if Church felt and was in error in year 300+ was able to give the World the Bible that is without error.


The second story:
Jesus, God came to Earth and established its True Church that gates of Hell will no overcome. The Church exist even today, both Liturgical and sacramental as the original one. The Church follows Apostolic teachings from the Bible and from outside of the Bible. The Church has icons as Apostle Luke was painter of icons and Jesus made an icon. Church had a great history and one can see consistency in belief in first, second third and every century to today.

Which story is true?

 

[dragongunner]

This is non-denomination. Perhaps you need to post here with eastern orthodox.

http://www.christianforums.com/f145/

 

[BryanW92]

Neither is true. No one, especially Luther, would have said that the 1500 years was an "error". The basis for the church, scripture, was sound and has stood the test of time.

The "error" was in the men who occupied the seat of power in that church after Peter's death. They changed it through personal vanity and through situational management into the flawed thing that it had become by the beginning of the 16th century.

Men will never create the perfect church. Luther, Wesley, Calvin, and a string of Pope's and Patriarchs will fail to create the perfect church over and over again. But, we have scripture that points each of us in the right direction. We have the Holy Spirit to make us realize that all these churches are imperfect, but that our Father is perfect as is his Son.

You can worship your church and its traidtions if you choose, but I choose Jesus.

 

[pasadi]

Probably I would better have posted on Orthodoxy.

As flawed as it was nobody dared take out Liturgy and sacraments that came from Apostles. Apostle Peter wrote a Holy Liturgy. Taking out Liturgy and sacraments had happened after 1500 in a blink of an eye.

If Bible is without error, you need Holy Communion, blood and body of Jesus, to get eternal life. And Holy Communion is in Church with Liturgy.

John 6:
53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[BryanW92]

Probably I would better have posted on Orthodoxy.

As flawed as it was nobody dared take out Liturgy and sacraments that came from Apostles. Apostle Peter wrote a Holy Liturgy. Taking out Liturgy and sacraments had happened after 1500 in a blink of an eye.

If Bible is without error, you need Holy Communion, blood and body of Jesus, to get eternal life. And Holy Communion is in Church with Liturgy.

John 6:
53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

They weren't taken out. Protestants have liturgy and communion too. Note that Jesus does not mention any specific ceremony being required.

 

[pasadi]

Jesus may not mention in what we know. Apostles did mention and write Holy Liturgy and I think they did not do that against the will of Jesus.

The Apostles writing Holy Liturgy are:
-James the leader of the Church in Acts of Apostles
-Apostle Peter
-Apostle and Evangelist Mark

In the end is Apostles against people that established Churches without Liturgy.

I choose Apostles.

All the Churches that EXISTED before 1500 were both Liturgical and sacramental.

 

[BryanW92]

Jesus may not mention in what we know. Apostles did mention and write Holy Liturgy and I think they did not do that against the will of Jesus.

The Apostles writing Holy Liturgy are:
-James the leader of the Church in Acts of Apostles
-Apostle Peter
-Apostle and Evangelist Mark

In the end is Apostles against people that established Churches without Liturgy.

I choose Apostles.

All the Churches that EXISTED before 1500 were both Liturgical and sacramental.

OK. I've got some free time. Point me to the Holy Liturgy and I'll see how far we are from it.

 

[pasadi]

Go to google and search "Holy Liturgy James". James is the Apostle in charge of Church from acts of the Apostles.
Same for youtube. Search for "Holy Liturgy James"

Or search for "Holy Liturgy Mark" where Mark is Apostle and Evangelist Mark.

Just to see how much it departed search for Apostle and Evangelist Luke, painter of icons. How would be APOSTLE AND EVANGELIST LUKE called in some organizations for painting icons? In some aspects it departed so that True is False and False is True. IN some aspects it departed so much that black is seen white and white is seen black.

 

[BryanW92]

Go to google and search "Holy Liturgy James". James is the Apostle in charge of Church from acts of the Apostles.
Same for youtube. Search for "Holy Liturgy James"

Or search for "Holy Liturgy Mark" where Mark is Apostle and Evangelist Mark.

Just to see how much it departed search for Apostle and Evangelist Luke, painter of icons. How would be APOSTLE AND EVANGELIST LUKE called in some organizations for painting icons? In some aspects it departed so that True is False and False is True. IN some aspects it departed so much that black is seen white and white is seen black.

I did google it. It says that the earliest existing Liturgy of James dates back to the 4th century. I also checked the bible and could not find it in there. Did James really live that long?

 

[pasadi]

The oldest Bible is dated when and you have no problems using it.

It is normal for original to dissapear in so much time. Anyhow, there exists even today icons painted by Apostle and Evangelist Luke.

Sola Scriptura does not exists in truth. Show me a denomination that has not printed/uses a book besides Bible. Bible + books is not Sola Scriptura.

 

[BryanW92]

The oldest Bible is dated when and you have no problems using it.

It is normal for original to dissapear in so much time. Anyhow, there exists even today icons painted by Apostle and Evangelist Luke.

Sola Scriptura does not exists in truth. Show me a denomination that has not printed/uses a book besides Bible. Bible + books is not Sola Scriptura.

My bible is dated 2000 (ESV). I am not making claims that my church does things exactly as the apostles did them, so I don't need to prove that the things I do are exactly what the apostles did. You do, and can't without just telling me what others have told you.

Personally, I like the Orthodox icons. When I took a trip to Russia a few years ago, I bought several and they are in my home.

Having a book other than the bible does not invalidate Sola Scriptura unless that book claims to give knowledge that is not found in the bible. I do not use such books, but I do use books that explain the bible better. It would be foolish to ignore the wisdom of others.

 

[pasadi]

History tells me that:
-Apostles wrote Holy Liturgy
-All churches before 1500, including Early Church were both sacramental and liturgical
-Sola Scriptura never existed before 1500

There is no word symbol below anyhow many denominations give symbols not blood and body of Jesus and that may not be biblical at all. Orthodox Church gives blood and body of Jesus at Holy Liturgy as was the understanding of Apostles.

John 6:
53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[BryanW92]

History tells me that:
-Apostles wrote Holy Liturgy
-All churches before 1500, including Early Church were both sacramental and liturgical
-Sola Scriptura never existed before 1500

There is no word symbol below anyhow many denominations give symbols not blood and body of Jesus and that may not be biblical at all. Orthodox Church gives blood and body of Jesus at Holy Liturgy as was the understanding of Apostles.

John 6:
53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

There is no proof that the apostles wrote the liturgy that you use today.

No one but God knows what ALL churches have ever done. Many churches were declared heretic by the Roman Church prior to 1500. How many of them were wrongly accused by an out-of-control church in Rome (or France or Constantinople) simply because they did not "do church" the way the established church of that time did it?

Sola scriptura existed for the Acts church. It was the Roman Church that decided that the common person could not handle knowledge of scripture.

About every two days, a new person comes in here and declares that they are part of the One True Church and that all others are not only wrong, but not even a real Christian. Instead of repeating the verse on the blood and flesh, because I will receive those tomorrow in my church, try reading the part of of the bible that talk about Christian freedom. It might change your life, or you can choose to ignore it and stick with your legalistic church traditions.

 

[Job8]

Which story is true?

Both stories are false. You will not find the words "liturgy" or "sacrament" in Scripture. These are the inventions of men.

 

[pasadi]

Very interesting but you don't realize were the invention of men is and you call white as black and black as white. Churches were kicked out because were bringing inventions of men.

Lets sort things out. Please give me documents:
1.Were is a document showing that Sola Scriptura was believed to be true before 1500.
2.Show me a document describing a Church that was not sacramental and not liturgical before 1500
3.Show me a document of a Church before 1500 giving people symbols instead of blood and body
4.Were was your church with same belief in 1st century, 2nd century,....20thy century AKA show me your Church is not invention of men? If not such church and the church was established after 1500 what do you deduce about invention of men? Think out of the box and for yourself.Leave indoctrination out. If you see a Church established by MEN after 1500 (an invention) without anything remotely similar before and call it true then you see the true Church with historical documents and call it invention of men, well we must recognize, indoctrination is powerful and indoctrination WORKS.

If there are not such documents,. then the invention of men is on your side of fence. You just were told by invention of men that invention of men is in real Church but you have to start thinking for yourself at what history of Church shows and decide for yourself.

I am waiting for the documents.

Eastern Orthodox Church translated Bibles in many languages and gave Bible to people from beginning.

You don't know but SOLA SCRIPTURA is your prison keeping you from finding the truth not letting you search the documents of early Church calling them unreliable. Sola Scriptura did not exists before 1500, christians being free to read the Apostles writings because Churches matched what Apostles wrote being Liturgical and sacramental. If you would let read Apostles writtings like Didache, Apostolic Constitutions, Liturgies of Apostles you would spot the falsehood, this is why PRISON SOLA SCRIPTURA and all the War against Apostolic writings in inventions of man appearing after 1500.


The lineage from Church in the Acts of Apostles to today Eastern Orthodox Church. Same beliefs across time. We can agree Eastern Orthodox Church was not invention of men being the right continuation of church in the bible.
ONE OF THE 12 APOSTLES James the Just (until 62) Liturgical Church
Simeon I (62–107) Liturgical Church
Justus I (107–113) Liturgical Church
Zaccheus (113–???) Liturgical Church
Tobias (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Benjamin I (Huh–117) Liturgical Church
John I (117–???) Liturgical Church
Matthias I (Huh–120) Liturgical Church
Philip (Huh–124) Liturgical Church
Senecas (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Justus II (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Levis (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Ephram (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Joseph I (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Judas (Huh–135) Liturgical Church
Marcus (135–???) Liturgical Church
Cassianus (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Poplius (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Maximus I (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Julian I (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Gaius I (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Symmachus (Huh) Liturgical Church
Gaius II (Huh–162) Liturgical Church
Julian II (162–???) Liturgical Church
Capion (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Maximus II (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Antoninus (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Valens (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Dolichianus (Huh–185) Liturgical Church
Narcissus (185–???) Liturgical Church
Dius (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Germanion (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Gordius (Huh–211) Liturgical Church
Narcissus (restored) (Huh–231) Liturgical Church
Alexander (231–249) Liturgical Church
Mazabanis (249–260) Liturgical Church
Imeneus (260–276) Liturgical Church
Zamudas (276–283) Liturgical Church
Ermon (283–314) Liturgical Church
Macarius I (314–333), since 325 Bi Liturgical Churchshop of Jerusalem
Macarius I (325–333) Liturgical Church
Maximus III (333–348) Liturgical Church
Cyril I (350–386) Liturgical Church
John II (386–417) Liturgical Church
Praulius (417–422) Liturgical Church
Juvenal (422–458), since 451
Patriarch Juvenal (451–458) Liturgical Church
Anastasius I (458–478) Liturgical Church
Martyrius (478–486) Liturgical Church
Sallustius (486–494) Liturgical Church
Elias I (494–516) Liturgical Church
John III (516–524) Liturgical Church
Peter (524–552) Liturgical Church
Macarius II (552, 564–575) Liturgical Church
Eustochius (552–564) Liturgical Church
John IV (575–594) Liturgical Church
Amos (594–601) Liturgical Church
Isaac (601–609) Liturgical Church
Zacharias (609–632) Liturgical Church
Modestus (632–634) Liturgical Church
Sophronius I (634–638) Liturgical Church
vacant (638–???) Liturgical Church
Anastasius II (Huh–706) Liturgical Church
John V (706–735) Liturgical Church
Theodore (745–770) Liturgical Church
Elias II (770–797) Liturgical Church
George (797–807) Liturgical Church
Thomas I (807–820) Liturgical Church
Basileus (820–838) Liturgical Church
John VI (838–842) Liturgical Church
Sergius I (842–844) Liturgical Church
vacant (844–855) Liturgical Church
Solomon (855–860) Liturgical Church
vacant (860–862) Liturgical Church
Theodosius (862–878) Liturgical Church
Elias III (878–907) Liturgical Church
Sergius II (908–911) Liturgical Church
Leontius I (912–929) Liturgical Church
Athanasius I (929–937) Liturgical Church
Christodolus (937–950) Liturgical Church
Agathon (950–964) Liturgical Church
John VII (964–966) Liturgical Church
Christodolus II (966–969) Liturgical Church
Thomas II (969–978) Liturgical Church
vacant (978–980) Liturgical Church
Joseph II (980–983) Liturgical Church
Orestes (983–1005) Liturgical Church
vacant (1005–1012) Liturgical Church
Theophilus I (1012–1020) Liturgical Church
Nicephorus I (1020–???) Liturgical Church
Joannichius (Huh–???) Liturgical Church
Sophronius II (Huh–1084) Liturgical Church
Euthemius I (1084) Liturgical Church
Simon II (1084–1106) Liturgical Church
Savvas (1106–11??) Liturgical Church
John VIII (11??–11??) Liturgical Church
Nicolas (11??–11??) Liturgical Church
John IX (1156–1166) Liturgical Church
Nicephorus II (1166–1170) Liturgical Church
Leontius II (1170–1190) Liturgical Church
Dositheos I (1190–1191) Liturgical Church
Marcus II (1191–???) Liturgical Church
vacant (Huh–1223) Liturgical Church
Euthemius II (1223) Liturgical Church
Athanasius II (1224–1236) Liturgical Church
Sophronius III (1236–???) Liturgical Church
Gregory I (Huh–1298) Liturgical Church
Thaddaeus (1298) Liturgical Church
vacant (1298–1313) Liturgical Church
Athanasius III (1313–1314) Liturgical Church
vacant (1314–1322) Liturgical Church
Gregory II (1322) Liturgical Church
vacant (1322–1334) Liturgical Church
Lazarus (1334–1368) Liturgical Church
vacant (1368–1376) Liturgical Church
Dorotheus I (1376–1417) Liturgical Church
Theophilus II (1417–1424) Liturgical Church
Theophanes I (1424–1431) Liturgical Church
Joachim (1431–???) Liturgical Church
vacant (Huh–1450) Liturgical Church
Theophanes II (1450) Liturgical Church
vacant (1450–1452) Liturgical Church
Athanasius IV (1452–???) Liturgical Church
vacant (Huh–1460) Liturgical Church
Jacob II (1460) Liturgical Church
vacant (1460–1468) Liturgical Church
Abraham I (1468) Liturgical Church
Gregory III (1468–1493) Liturgical Church
vacant (1493–1503) Liturgical Church
Marcus III (1503) Liturgical Church
vacant (1503–1505) Liturgical Church
Dorotheus II (1505–1537) Liturgical Church
Germanus (1537–1579) Liturgical Church
Sophronius IV (1579–1608) Liturgical Church
Theophanes III (1608–1644) Liturgical Church
Paiseus (1645–1660) Liturgical Church
Nectarius I (1660–1669) Liturgical Church
Dositheos II (1669–1707) Liturgical Church
Chrysanthus (1707–1731) Liturgical Church
Meletius (1731–1737) Liturgical Church
Parthenius[disambiguation needed] (1737–1766) Liturgical Church
Ephram II (1766–1771) Liturgical Church
Sophronius V (1771–1775) Liturgical Church
Abraham II (1775–1787) Liturgical Church
Procopius I (1787–1788) Liturgical Church
Anthemus (1788–1808) Liturgical Church
Polycarpus (1808–1827) Liturgical Church
Athanasius V (1827–1845) Liturgical Church
Cyril II (1845–1872) Liturgical Church
Procopius II (1872–1875) Liturgical Church
Jerotheus (1875–1882) Liturgical Church
Nicodemus I (1883–1890) Liturgical Church
Gerasimus I (1891–1897) Liturgical Church
Damianus I (1897–1931) Liturgical Church
Timotheus I (1935–1955) Liturgical Church
vacant (1955–1957) Liturgical Church
Benedict I (1957–1980) Liturgical Church
Diodoros I (1981–2000) Liturgical Church
Irenaios I (2001–2005) Liturgical Church
Theophilos III (2005–Present) Liturgical Church

 

[BryanW92]

Lets sort things out. Please give me documents:

If there are not such documents,. then the invention of men is on your side of fence. You just were told by invention of men that invention of men is in real Church but you have to start thinking for yourself at what history of Church shows and decide for yourself.

I am waiting for the documents.

So, it is man-made documents that prove that something is not man-made. That is insanity.

You didn't come here for a discussion. You came here to proselytize. This is not the forum for you to do that. We are Protestant in this forum. We aren't going to change that because your liturgies are just legalism. They are not creators of faith or bestowers of grace. They are man-made because, even IF James wrote your liturgy (and you can't prove that), he was just a man. Since he didn't write it down as scripture, then he must not have intended it to be scripture.

 

[pasadi]

This is sane. Everything works with documents written by MAN including Bible. Legal system, history, everything works with documents written by men. Even your Church works with documents made by men.

Let me make a parallel to see what is going on. I make Sola Herodot history. I say all documents are not valid beside the documents written by Herodot . Then according with Herodot I write about civil war. Confederates came with tanks and rockets anyhow people from north came with generation 5th aircraft. Show me I am wrong anyhow I wont recognize any VALID historical document beside Herodot.

Bible was written by a man too actually by Apostles too, same like Liturgies. So you think Apostles are unreliable but A MAN after 1500 got it right even if not similar with other MEN after 1500 that got it right too, anyhow contradicting each other. Please I am for a discussion, make me understand. Should the CHURCH accept the inventions of these men ?.
I am for discussion. Where is your faith originating from? If not from men, was an angel

Bible does not have a Sunday service. Any Sunday service made after Bible is 95% imagination. This is why different denominations have it different. Sunday service was written by Church in another document called Holy Liturgy.

What you do on Sunday and where is step by step what you do in Bible.

I am for discussion. Where was your Church in century 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20? Jesus came in year 0 not after 1500. That is prove to me your Church is not INVENTION OF MEN. Was anything REMOTELY similar before 1500?

If you want to remain in prison Sola Scriptura, is fine with me. I see prisoners defending prison, calling it home.

 

[BryanW92]

This is sane. Everything works with documents written by MAN including Bible. Legal system, history, everything works with documents written by men. Even your Church works with documents made by men.

Let me make a parallel to see what is going on. I make Sola Herodot history. I say all documents are not valid beside the documents written by Herodot . Then according with Herodot I write about civil war. Confederates came with tanks and rockets anyhow people from north came with generation 5th aircraft. Show me I am wrong anyhow I wont recognize any VALID historical document beside Herodot.

Bible was written by a man too actually by Apostles too, same like Liturgies. So you think Apostles are unreliable but A MAN after 1500 got it right even if not similar with other MEN after 1500 that got it right too, anyhow contradicting each other. Please I am for a discussion, make me understand. Should the CHURCH accept the inventions of these men ?.
I am for discussion. Where is your faith originating from? If not from men, was an angel

Bible does not have a Sunday service. Any Sunday service made after Bible is 95% imagination. This is why different denominations have it different. Sunday service was written by Church in another document called Holy Liturgy.

What you do on Sunday and where is step by step what you do in Bible.

I am for discussion. Where was your Church in century 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20? Jesus came in year 0 not after 1500. That is prove to me your Church is not INVENTION OF MEN. Was anything REMOTELY similar before 1500?

If you want to remain in prison Sola Scriptura, is fine with me. I see prisoners defending prison, calling it home.

The church before 1500 was an invention of men too. Jesus did not spell out any liturgies or legal requirements.

Does grace come from liturgy? Is salvation gained by following a specific order of worship? Do I have to perform your liturgy once to have salvation, or do I need to renew it every Sunday? Is your liturgy the only work that is required of me?

 

[FreeinChrist]

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