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Two really important questions

Simon_Templar

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Our resident pastor posted this on another thread, and I did not want to derail that thread, so I thought I'd bring it here.

Here is the quote:



1. Is the Bible just a text book?

Is it not inerrant? Is it not the Word of God?

2. Does personal experience trump the textbook?

No and no.

Viewing the bible as a textbook to be mined for data is actually one of the chief problems of modern Christianity. The bible should be predominantly understood as a story, and specifically as the story of who we are as God's people, or the story of God's relationship with the world.

Relying on personal experience is a sure path to deception. However, relying on individual, "private" interpretation and understanding of the bible is conceptually equivalent to relying on personal experience... It is only marginally better. This is because your understanding and interpretation of scripture is formed by your personal experience, whether you are aware of it or not.

This is why teaching and interpretive authority is essential and it is why God established such both in the old testament and in the new.
 
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lismore

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1. Is the Bible just a text book?

Of course not.

'Text-books' are frail and fallible.

I was proof reading a friend's thesis a while back. When I was at University Geography textbooks said the world was 4.5 billion years old. My friend's textbook said the world was 17 million years old!

The earth has aged 12.5 billion years in ten years! That's the sort of excrement you get in 'text-books!'

But the word of God is still God breathed. if you open the bible it ten years it won't have done a complete U turn like 'text-books!' Hoot!
 
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JimB

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Of course not.

'Text-books' are frail and fallible.

I was proof reading a friend's thesis a while back. When I was at University Geography textbooks said the world was 4.5 billion years old. My friend's textbook said the world was 17 million years old!

The earth has aged 12.5 billion years in ten years! That's the sort of excrement you get in 'text-books!'

But the word of God is still God breathed. if you open the bible it ten years it won't have done a complete U turn like 'text-books!' Hoot!
You are right. :thumbsup: When the Bible becomes nothing more than a textbook of faith formulas for healing or prosperity or self-fulfillment, I think people are missing the point of why Christ died. He didn’t die to leave us a self-help manual. :)
 
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Yahu

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You are right. :thumbsup: When the Bible becomes nothing more than a textbook of faith formulas for healing or prosperity or self-fulfillment, I think people are missing the point of why Christ died. He didn’t die to leave us a self-help manual. :)

Yep, too many people turn their bible into their own personal spell book of magic words to say to bring about blessings.
 
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Always in His Presence

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Interesting

A woman gets the promise from God of a baby, spends the ne t 25 years believing God will give her a child, ignoring the clear fact that her body can not any longer produce children.

In scripture, she is called a woman of faith.

On Cf she would be called something completely different because it didn't happen instantaneously.

Sarah - don't believe those faith formulas

Sarah - God is teaching you something in your barrenness

Sarah - it hasn't happened in 5 years obviously it isn't Gods will.

Sarah - it hasn't happened in 7 years obviously it isn't Gods will

Sarah - it hasn't happened in 10 years obviously it isn't Gods will

Sarah - it hasn't happened in 12 years obviously it isn't Gods will

Sarah - it hasn't happened in 15 years obviously it isn't Gods will

Sarah - it hasn't happened in 20 years obviously it isn't Gods will

Sarah - it hasn't happened in 25 years obviously it isn't Gods will


11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
 
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Regarding the OP, I like the following analogy:

Trekkies, LOVE all things Star Trek. Obviously.

They are more than just fans … many of them are fanatics. They watch every episode, movie, memorize who is who, what is canon and what isn't, where the continuity errors are and are not. They learn to speak Vulcan, Klingon, how to read and write it … they have their favorite actors, characters, etc. They write fan fiction. They fabricate phasers, and starship decks, and dream about how to make things "beam up". They form groups within themselves, attempt to logically explain how warp drives work. Even the actors who portray the characters, like Nimoy and Spock … may tend to "become" the very characters they portray, to a certain extent.

What none of those people are, though, are "real". They do not live in the Star Trek UNIVERSE. They have never been aboard a REAL starship. They have never experienced actual warp drive, nor visited another planet, nor beamed up to anything. They haven't met a real Klingon, or actually fought in a real battle. They may know all about it … VICARIOUSLY. They may copy/paste as much of it as they can into their lives, but what they are not, is "the real deal".

If the Star Trek Universe actually existed, then those within it, by their very definition, would naturally be exposed to all the above things. Aliens, Klingons, warp drive, phasers, the "Prime Directive", the Federation, etc. If you were born on Vulcan, you are by *definition* a Vulcan. And you are by definition part of the REAL Star Trek Universe.

I have little doubt, that if a "real Captain Kirk" actually existed, and managed to appear at a Trekkie convention, they would probably not recognize him. And if he tried to tell them that he was an actual person from a "real" Star Trek based Universe, they would analyze him to shreds to compare it with what they *think* they know. They are in fact fans, fanatics, experts, etc … but they are the "copy/paste" variety. They are viewing something through the transcripts, not through direct experience.

The scriptures chronicle the life and times of those who were the "real Star Trek". Parting of the Red Sea, wrestling with angels, prophets, etc. Some of them were apparently written by the actual people, who were the elect, people of Godly faith, Children of the Light … thus, BY DEFINITION, you are reading the "real Star Trek", so to speak. Their lives were the MANIFESTATION OF IT. They were "walking scripture". If you looked at their lives, their words, their experiences, their trials and tribulations, then you were looking at "scripture". You were looking at the Inspiration of God, in action, in their lives. Each day was a page of a book, each year a chapter. And their lives told a story, and pointed to God, the plans of history, the "supernatural", etc and so forth. Jonah, for example …. did he read the Book of Jonah and then copy/paste it into his life ? No … he LIVED IT. If you had met Jonah, you would have met a living example of God's Word in ACTION. His very steps were prophetic of our Lord Jesus Christ, for example. His very life was like the chapter of a book that was telling a story.

This has not changed. If you are a Child of God, elect, etc … your life is doing the same thing. The "Star Trek saga" didn't end. We weren't left with only the episodes and some fan fiction. There is still the "real Star Trek"unfolding. And if you are a part of it, you will see this, and experience this. Your life is an inspired testimony of this. You have been quickened to the Word of God, Jesus Christ, and are part of His Body ... same as His kindred have been all throughout unfolding history. Our brothers and sisters, are talked about in the scriptures. Your life NATURALLY is like theirs. You didn't have to first read about it, and then copy/paste it into your life. You didn't have to go buy a uniform, memorize your favorite actor, figure out how to speak Vulcan … you did these things NATURALLY. Your life is the "Book of _______". And it testifies to these things. Your steps point to God, His plan, Jesus, the prophets, etc. You are an extension of it, another example of it. You are "walking scripture". You will find yourself experiencing and doing things like those in the scriptures, because you are LIKE THEM. It's not about whether or not you are errant or inerrant, it's the *Spirit* at work within you. Jonah, David, Rahab the Prostitute, Moses, the thief on the cross ... all "errant". But they were "living". God is the God of the Living. They are examples and testimonies pointing to a specific design, inspired by God. Of the same family. The "Real Star Trek". If you are part of their family, you will naturally do these things too. Not a Trekkie … the Trekkie attempts to copy/paste. They are "fans". They buy the uniforms, become "experts", try to be like a character in the story. You don't need to be an expert on the Children of God … you can be *studied* because you ARE a Child of God. If someone pays attention to your life, they are seeing "the Word of God in action". And reading about the lives of other Children, reflects IN you, and you in them. So it's not that personal experience trumps the text book --- personal experience is what WROTE the text book. LIVING. Not dead fiction.

For some, they find themselves doing the very things the scriptures say to do, and experiencing the very things the scriptures describe … without having read the scriptures in the first place. Later, in their life, when they look at the scriptures, it's actually the scriptures that BACK UP THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES. Not primarily, but *secondarily*. And this would make sense, because if they had the Holy Spirit, and the Scriptures were inspired by the Spirit of God, then the Holy Spirit would align with it's ownself lol. The Spirit would remain consistent throughout .... to an "outsider", or someone of a different spirit, they would not identify with those who are with Christ the same way, if they could identify at all.
 
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JimB

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Interesting

A woman gets the promise from God of a baby, spends the ne t 25 years believing God will give her a child, ignoring the clear fact that her body can not any longer produce children.

In scripture, she is called a woman of faith.

On Cf she would be called something completely different because it didn't happen instantaneously.

Sarah - don't believe those faith formulas

Sarah - God is teaching you something in your barrenness

Sarah - it hasn't happened in 5 years obviously it isn't Gods will.

Sarah - it hasn't happened in 7 years obviously it isn't Gods will

Sarah - it hasn't happened in 10 years obviously it isn't Gods will

Sarah - it hasn't happened in 12 years obviously it isn't Gods will

Sarah - it hasn't happened in 15 years obviously it isn't Gods will

Sarah - it hasn't happened in 20 years obviously it isn't Gods will

Sarah - it hasn't happened in 25 years obviously it isn't Gods will


11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
I would probably approach this a bit differently and say that Sarah was a woman of faith because she trusted God, not trusted that she would become pregnant, but trusted that whatever God chose he would work it all out for good—IOW, she trusted his faithfulness.
"By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised.” (Heb. 11.11)
Faith is not faith in a prayer, it is faith in a Person … and that Person is wiser than our prayers. IMO. :)
 
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probinson

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I would probably approach this a bit differently and say that Sarah was a woman of faith because she trusted God, not trusted that she would become pregnant, but trusted that whatever God chose he would work it all out for good—IOW, she trusted his faithfulness.
"By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised.” (Heb. 11.11)
Faith is not faith in a prayer, it is faith in a Person … and that Person is wiser than our prayers. IMO. :)

God told Sarah she would conceive. Scripture takes it further than that by saying God promised Sarah that she would conceive.

Other translations of Hebrews 11:11;
(NLT)
It was by faith that even Sarah was able to have a child, though she was barren and was too old. She believed that God would keep his promise.

(NIV)
And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise.


(AMP)
Because of faith also Sarah herself received physical power to conceive a child, even when she was long past the age for it, because she considered [God] Who had given her the promise to be reliable
and trustworthy and true to His word.
Even the translation you've chosen said that Sarah believed God was faithful to do what He promised;
(NKJV)
By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised.

This idea that we should trust God for ... well, whatever He thinks is best at the moment, is much more akin to fatalism than Biblical faith. There are people all throughout scripture that believed God was faithful to do what He promised them.

You act like it would have been wrong for Sarah to believe that she would become pregnant, even though God specifically told her that she would become pregnant.

It would be like if I told my son that I was going to take him to Disney World for vacation next year. So my son, who "trusts" me, at least in the strange and bizarre way you've defined "trust", says, "Whatever you think is best, dad. I'm not expecting you to take us to Disney World, because I trust that you know what's best." That's not trust at all. In fact, it would demonstrate clearly that he didn't really trust what I had promised him in the least.

When God speaks something to us, it's not wrong to believe that what He said will come to pass, and it's certainly not "trusting" Him to doubt that what He has said will come to pass.

:cool:
 
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JimB

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God told Sarah she would conceive. Scripture takes it further than that by saying God promised Sarah that she would conceive.

Other translations of Hebrews 11:11;
(NLT)
It was by faith that even Sarah was able to have a child, though she was barren and was too old. She believed that God would keep his promise.

(NIV)
And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise.

(AMP)
Because of faith also Sarah herself received physical power to conceive a child, even when she was long past the age for it, because she considered [God] Who had given her the promise to be reliable and trustworthy and true to His word.
Even the translation you've chosen said that Sarah believed God was faithful to do what He promised;
(NKJV)
By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised.
This idea that we should trust God for ... well, whatever He thinks is best at the moment, is much more akin to fatalism than Biblical faith. There are people all throughout scripture that believed God was faithful to do what He promised them.

You act like it would have been wrong for Sarah to believe that she would become pregnant, even though God specifically told her that she would become pregnant.

It would be like if I told my son that I was going to take him to Disney World for vacation next year. So my son, who "trusts" me, at least in the strange and bizarre way you've defined "trust", says, "Whatever you think is best, dad. I'm not expecting you to take us to Disney World, because I trust that you know what's best." That's not trust at all. In fact, it would demonstrate clearly that he didn't really trust what I had promised him in the least.

When God speaks something to us, it's not wrong to believe that what He said will come to pass, and it's certainly not "trusting" Him to doubt that what He has said will come to pass.

:cool:
^_^ Well, hello Pete. Don’t tell me you disagree with me :eek:… again. In my view, as strange as may seem to you, your definition of “biblical faith” is more akin to presumption and wishful thinking than to faith in God. God is not obligated to do what you/I tell him to do. He can pretty much do as he pleases. You can call trust fatalism if that helps you justify your position, but trusting God to do what is right sure takes the pressure off me to be in charge of his universe.

BTW, your kid trusting you and me trusting God are not quite the same thing. That's a pretty lame analogy. How God does what he promised is really none of our business. Just sayin’. :)
 
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K2K

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Our resident pastor posted this on another thread, and I did not want to derail that thread, so I thought I'd bring it here.

Here is the quote:



1. Is the Bible just a text book?

Is it not inerrant? Is it not the Word of God?

2. Does personal experience trump the textbook?

#1 Scripture - and that is what the Bible is - are Holy Writ - that is to say that people wrote down what God was telling them. God - since He is living and active, and is Lord of lords, has kept and maintained the writing through time so as to be able to use them to help us.

People are not inerrant, and clearly people have been used in creating the Scriptures, but God is not inerrant, so He clearly can use people to accomplish what He wants. If the Bible is not perfect (and we have numerous different translations, so can they all be perfect), the Bible is still what we need it to be, because God is alive and active.

So the Bible is certainly used as a textbook by God. Yet if it is a textbook God created, then isn't it necessary to listen to the teacher?

#2 If I say the Bible is from God and God is Truth, then out of necessity, personal experience can not trump but rather help explain what is written in the Scriptures


Now this brings up several problems I see in Christianity today.

I have heard many say the Bible is the living active word of God. Well that is simply not the case. Jesus is the living active Word of God. The Bible clearly tells us Jesus is the Word of God. The Bible clearly tells us that the Word (Jesus Christ) took on flesh and is with God and is God. And Jesus (the Word of God) clearly explained that the Jews (and we are graphed into the Jewisd root - so it applies to us) search the Scriptures thinking in them they have eternal life, but they don't come to Him.

The Bible is not alive, Jesus Christ is alive.

The Bible is a book. Certainly is it a special book written according to God, but it is still a book in that it can not move (so is not active), it can not make decisions of anytype (so it is not alive).

It is written that there are no such things as idols hear on earth. A stone, a tree, or paper pressed together and ink applied, are not idols. However we make idols of them by crediting them with attributes of God. The Jews that thought the Scriptures gave them eternal life had given the Scriptures attributes of God. And there is nothing new under the sun.

People today are making an idol out of the Bible. To do that you first have to credit it with being alive. Then you credit it we God like powers, like giving you salvation. The Jews did that when Jesus was on earth in the flesh, and He corrected them then. Christians are doing that today, but are we willing to be corrected by the statement Jesus made and which are recorded in the very Bible that we call the Word of God.

No - apparently we are not.

We call the Bible the living active Word of God.

We say the Bible is the Word that took on flesh and is One with God and is God.

We sing songs in our children's ministries that go "This is my Bible, it is the Word of God, it gives me new life."

And if anyone points this out, He is considered to have a problem and is a trouble maker.

Ok, not all Christians are doing that above, but all the things listed above I have seen happening, and even happening in the 5,000 plus memeber Charismatic Christian church I have down the street from me, which I attend.

There is nothing new under the sun. Christians, like the Jews which they are a part of - Search the Scriptures as the living and active Word of God, thinking in them they have life, instead of turning to Jesus Christ who is the living and active Word of God. He is called that because you can hear from Him if you take the time. But it is easier to read the Bible and do what you want, than turn to God to listen to what He wants you to do.
 
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probinson

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In my view, as strange as may seem to you, your definition of “biblical faith” is more akin to presumption and wishful thinking than to faith in God.

Well OK, but I've shown you multiple times how what you call "faith" doesn't pass scriptural muster. You completely ignored it the last few times I posted it, so I'm not sure I should bother posting it again...

God is not obligated to do what you/I tell him to do.

Huh? God is the One that promised Sarah He would give her a child, and if I recall correctly, there is no record of Sarah ever praying or asking God for a child. Sarah didn't "tell" God to give her a child; He promised her a child.

He can pretty much do as he pleases.

Can God sentence someone to eternity in hell if they have confessed with their mouth Jesus is Lord and believed in their heart that God raised Him from the dead? Or more accurately, do you believe that God's promise to save us through Jesus Christ is trustworthy? I sure do.


You can call trust fatalism if that helps you justify your position,

Likewise, you can call fatalism "trust" if that helps you justify your position. However, the definition of fatalism is as follows;
Fatalism is a philosophical doctrine emphasizing the subjugation of all events or actions to fate.
With shockingly few minor changes, we can arrive at what you're promoting;
Fatalism "Trust" is a philosophical "Christian" doctrine emphasizing the subjugation of all events or actions to fate God's will.

but trusting God to do what is right sure takes the pressure off me to be in charge of his universe.

There's that spiritual sounding terminology again. ;)

Of course God does "what is right", but you can also take to the bank that if He tells you something, or more accurately, if He promises you something, it will come to pass.

BTW, your kid trusting you and me trusting God are not quite the same thing.

Why not? Are there different kinds of "trust" now? Trust is trust is trust, IMO. I don't need multiple definitions of the word "trust" to "justify [my] position". ;)

That's a pretty lame analogy.

If you say so. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ saw it fitting to call God our Father quite often, and more than once showed how earthly fathers were analogous to our heavenly Father. Sorry to see you find that comparison "lame".

How God does what he promised is really none of our business. Just sayin’. :)

Maybe you didn't get the memo; Jesus called us friends of God. Scripture tells us that we can boldly and with confidence approach the throne room of grace in times of need. We've been instructed in scripture to renew our minds so that we can test and approve what God's will for us is. I am so thankful that we can know God on a much deeper and more personal level than you seem to be saying is possible.

:cool:
 
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dysert

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K2K,

What do you make of Heb. 4:12, especially in light of 1 Thes. 2:13?

Heb. 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
1 Thes. 2:13
For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.​
 
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K2K

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^_^ Well, hello Pete. Don’t tell me you disagree with me :eek:… again. In my view, as strange as may seem to you, your definition of “biblical faith” is more akin to presumption and wishful thinking than to faith in God. God is not obligated to do what you/I tell him to do. He can pretty much do as he pleases. You can call trust fatalism if that helps you justify your position, but trusting God to do what is right sure takes the pressure off me to be in charge of his universe.

BTW, your kid trusting you and me trusting God are not quite the same thing. That's a pretty lame analogy. How God does what he promised is really none of our business. Just sayin’. :)


OK - where in the Bible is there anything written "biblical fiath".

Our faith is suppose to be in God, as is written in the Bible!!

If we believe in God and put our faith in Him, we will listen to Him!!

If my faith is in the Bible, I will read the Bible and lean on my own understanding!!

I of course won't call it leaning on my own understanding, because I read the Bible, but leaning on my interpretation of the Bible, "Biblical faith" is still just leaning on my understanding.

It might be hard for someone to image, if they don't actually believe in God, but God can be talked to.

Sarah talked to God, AND HEARD FROM HIM!!!

She did not have Biblical faith!! She had faith in God!! That He was the Great I AM. That He was there with her!! That she could hear from Him.

How is it anyone could read the Bible and not come to that conclusion, then start talking to Him, as in listening to what He had to say to them?

We are not supposed to have "biblical faith", we are supposed to read and study the Bible to have "Godly faith".

It is written, "Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven"

That is what we do but don't want to admit it to ourselves. That is what we are doing when we say "Biblical faith". Yet the Bible was written to you could personally get to know God, the Great I Am!!

So what has He told you today???

As for me, I was working at my business, and turn to ask Him if He had anything for me to do. He instantly told me to go to the Christian Forum, because He needed me to do some posting. He told me that, He also told me which thread to post on. And the Spirit has told me things like:

"We don't use the Lord to preach the Scriptures. We use the Scriptures to preach the Lord!"
 
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JimB

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OK - where in the Bible is there anything written "biblical fiath".

Our faith is suppose to be in God, as is written in the Bible!!

If we believe in God and put our faith in Him, we will listen to Him!!

If my faith is in the Bible, I will read the Bible and lean on my own understanding!!

I of course won't call it leaning on my own understanding, because I read the Bible, but leaning on my interpretation of the Bible, "Biblical faith" is still just leaning on my understanding.

It might be hard for someone to image, if they don't actually believe in God, but God can be talked to.

Sarah talked to God, AND HEARD FROM HIM!!!

She did not have Biblical faith!! She had faith in God!! That He was the Great I AM. That He was there with her!! That she could hear from Him.

How is it anyone could read the Bible and not come to that conclusion, then start talking to Him, as in listening to what He had to say to them?

We are not supposed to have "biblical faith", we are supposed to read and study the Bible to have "Godly faith".

It is written, "Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven"

That is what we do but don't want to admit it to ourselves. That is what we are doing when we say "Biblical faith". Yet the Bible was written to you could personally get to know God, the Great I Am!!

So what has He told you today???

As for me, I was working at my business, and turn to ask Him if He had anything for me to do. He instantly told me to go to the Christian Forum, because He needed me to do some posting. He told me that, He also told me which thread to post on. And the Spirit has told me things like:

"We don't use the Lord to preach the Scriptures. We use the Scriptures to preach the Lord!"
I agree. What I am concerned about, though, is Christians who think (because they have been badly taught) that “faith” means that we can get God to work on our schedule and in our way. Sarah heard from God but she had no idea how he would answer or how long it would take for him to answer her prayer, but she TRUSTED him to do what he said. It took decades, but God came through in his own way and in his own time. Trusting faith is, IMO, faith in God, not faith in some possibly misinterpreted or misunderstood biblical text. :)
 
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probinson

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I agree. What I am concerned about, though, is Christians who think (because they have been badly taught) that “faith” means that we can get God to work on our schedule and in our way.

Except, no one here is promoting that nonsensical notion.

OTOH, what I am concerned about is Christians who think (because they have been badly taught) that "faith" is "trust" in God to do .... well, whatever the heck He feels like doing. You just never know. It's all a big mystery.

This unknowable God is what concerns me, and what is contrary to the God that Jesus came to show us.

Sarah heard from God but she had no idea how he would answer or how long it would take for him to answer her prayer, but she TRUSTED him to do what he said.

Wait... say that again... She trusted Him to do what He said.

Exactly.

And she knew precisely how God would fulfill what He said, because He said, quite unambiguously, that she would have a son. At first she laughed at the notion, but ultimately, she believed that God would do what He said.


It took decades, but God came through in his own way and in his own time.

Right. And that was kind of the point of what SP said. In the Bible, Sarah was commended for her faith. Here on CF, people would accuse her of foolish presumption, and lob out trite sayings at her like, "If God said it, it would have come to pass. If it hasn't come to pass, God didn't say it." But Sarah continued in faith, despite having to wait for decades, believing that what God promised would come to pass. I mean, after 25 years of evidence to the contrary, the Word either works or it doesn't, right? ;)

Trusting faith is, IMO, faith in God, not faith in some possibly misinterpreted or misunderstood biblical text. :)

Except the "Biblical text" are words that God has spoken to us. I don't know why you find it so troublesome for someone to believe in and rely on the promises of God.

:cool:
 
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K2K

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I agree. What I am concerned about, though, is Christians who think (because they have been badly taught) that “faith” means that we can get God to work on our schedule and in our way. Sarah heard from God but she had no idea how he would answer or how long it would take for him to answer her prayer, but she TRUSTED him to do what he said. It took decades, but God came through in his own way and in his own time. Trusting faith is, IMO, faith in God, not faith in some possibly misinterpreted or misunderstood biblical text. :)

Can a person listening to God be badly taught?

And it is written, 'Faith come from hearing'.

Even a student that reads the textbook and attends class to hear what the teacher says, doesn't alway get 100% on a test.

But the student that only reads the text book but doesn't go to class to hear what the Teacher says, will never know if he is wrong.

So believing that God will do what He said comes from learning from the Teacher and not by studying the Bible. Abraham heard and believed (Gen 15) when God told him that his chidlren would be like the stars in the sky. Still Abraham had Ishmael because he misinterpreted what God said. Abraham was correct, and not with the Bible.

The Bible is good for reproof, but who should do the reproving. If the Lord our is our Teacher, then isn't our message, "Listen to Him". Or should we keep preaching "Biblical faith" or faith in Him?
 
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K2K

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Except, no one here is promoting that


Except the "Biblical text" are words that God has spoken to us. I don't know why you find it so troublesome for someone to believe in and rely on the promises of God.

:cool:

"Biblical text" are not words that God spoke to us, they are words that God spoke to others, that were written down for us!!


This might seem like just simantics, but it is important to understand so that you will seek God, and not just the words He spoke to others!!

The reason we make idols, are so that we don't have to listen to God. It is the same reason that we make an idol out of the Bible. People have studied the Bible and still don't all types of evil things. If you listen to God and start doing evil things, He is going to correct you. This is why Jesus told the Pharisees that they cleaned the outside, and that He told people that their righteousness had to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees. This is also why Jesus explained to Satan that man must live by everyword that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

So yeah, we need to study the words spoken to others by God in the past. They are helpful to us today. But we also need to listen to God speaking to us today. We need to ask Him about what was written in the past, and what He tells us are the words spoken to us!!

So who does someone write that they words spoken to others are words spoken to us. Ok - maybe it is symantics - because they just mean those words spoken to others in the past are also meant for us. Yet maybe it is a clear indication that they are not listening to Him speaking to them today.

As for me, I can't not see the words in the Bible as words spoken to me, but rather as words spoken to others with are meant for me also. And the reason is that I clearly hear Him speaking to me a dozen times a day. Reading what someone wrote, and hearing a person actually talking to you cann't be confused, can they? The Bible is for everyone, so is not personal. The Lord talking to me, even if He is reveiwing what is written in the Bible, is personal.

I preach a personal relationship with the Lord. A personal relationship means hearing from His small voice, not reading what others heard 2,000 years ago. It was presonal for them 2,000 ago, and it useful to me, but it is not personal to me. Listen to Him and you will surely understand, He is a personal God that can talk to you. The most common thing He tells me is, "I love you". I read about that many times in the Bible, but the first time I heard Him tell me that brought tears to my eyes which made stopping and the up coming stop sign difficult. That's personal.
 
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JimB

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Can a person listening to God be badly taught?

And it is written, 'Faith come from hearing'.

Even a student that reads the textbook and attends class to hear what the teacher says, doesn't alway get 100% on a test.

But the student that only reads the text book but doesn't go to class to hear what the Teacher says, will never know if he is wrong.

So believing that God will do what He said comes from learning from the Teacher and not by studying the Bible. Abraham heard and believed (Gen 15) when God told him that his chidlren would be like the stars in the sky. Still Abraham had Ishmael because he misinterpreted what God said. Abraham was correct, and not with the Bible.

The Bible is good for reproof, but who should do the reproving. If the Lord our is our Teacher, then isn't our message, "Listen to Him". Or should we keep preaching "Biblical faith" or faith in Him?
It is true that when God speaks, it’s infallible. But what we hear isn’t. When a message, even a message from God, is encoded it then has to pass through all of our filters (what we have experienced, been taught, our environment, culture, etc.) and is then interpreted (decoded) by us. God is not the problem, we are.

Being a pastor, I have a lot of experience with people who use the “God told me blah, blah” tool to manipulate people, end debates, excuse their actions, justify their beliefs, or whatever, when it is obvious that they haven’t heard a thing except their own imagination. For example, one lady whose son was paraplegic wanted healing for him and told me that “God said” that if she would take her son to California to a famous healing evangelist’s meeting he would be miraculously healed. I tried to dissuade her from making a trip and offered to pray for the boy myself, but it was no use—she had “heard from God.” So off she went to LA, spending money she didn’t have for gasoline, room and board, and arrived at the meeting and had her son prayed for by the televangelist. But her son was not healed and she came home, disillusioned, telling people that God had failed her (not that she had failed herself) and today will not attend church, harboring bitterness toward God for not coming through as she wanted.

I’ve got lots of stories like this from people who have “heard from God,” and been disappointed when he didn’t come through as he was told to. While I do believe that God speaks to us, I have serious doubts about most of what I hear God has “told” people. :)
 
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It is true that when God speaks, it’s infallible. But what we hear isn’t. When a message, even a message from God, is encoded it then has to pass through all of our filters (what we have experienced, been taught, our environment, culture, etc.) and is then interpreted (decoded) by us. God is not the problem, we are.

Being a pastor, I have a lot of experience with people who use the “God told me blah, blah” tool to manipulate people, end debates, excuse their actions, justify their beliefs, or whatever, when it is obvious that they haven’t heard a thing except their own imagination. For example, one lady whose son was paraplegic wanted healing for him and told me that “God said” that if she would take her son to California to a famous healing evangelist’s meeting he would be miraculously healed. I tried to dissuade her from making a trip and offered to pray for the boy myself, but it was no use—she had “heard from God.” So off she went to LA, spending money she didn’t have for gasoline, room and board, and arrived at the meeting and had her son prayed for by the televangelist. But her son was not healed and she came home, disillusioned, telling people that God had failed her (not that she had failed herself) and today will not attend church, harboring bitterness toward God for not coming through as she wanted.

I’ve got lots of stories like this from people who have “heard from God,” and been disappointed when he didn’t come through as he was told to. While I do believe that God speaks to us, I have serious doubts about most of what I hear God has “told” people. :)

Why didn't you tell her to ask God about it?!!!

Look, you are right about our hearing not being all that great, and the Spirit of God is not the only spirit so discernment of spirits is needed, but does that mean we should stop hearing? NO NO NO - It just means we need to practice hearing from Him more and reading the Scriptures is important.

Did this lady really hear God about the healing?

Heck I heard the Lord tell me to go to a Christian healing room for my knee, about 5 years ago, and I got instantly healed. They prayed for it, it got hot, and my old surfing injury was healed instantly.

I'm glade I didn't have a pastor trying to stop me. I would still have a bad knee.


Jesus explained that with their ears they barely hear and with their eyes they don't see, otherwise they would turn back to Him and He would heal them. I got healed, but you told this lady not to believe that He would heal her son, and her son didn't get healed. So where is the problem???

My wife used to sing and help out with the Benny Hinn crusades, and I being from southern Calf, had seen them. I saw 500 people get healed. She was up close and saw the healing right before her eyes. I've talked to so many people that have been healed, that if someone, anyone was to tell me that they felt God told them to go to a Benny Hinn crusade and He would heal them, I would tell them go and believe and keep talking to Him so their faith in increased. But are there really others would tell them to not go and not believe?? What does that do to their faith and their healing?

The Scriptures explain that you can't please God without faith and that faith comes from hearing. But the Pharisees didn't hear the words of the Lord, and Jesus told them that straight up.

So was the lady's problem that she heard and went, or that those around her (even Christians leaders) told her that she wasn't hearing and cause doubt?

Not everything I hear from the Lord happens like I think, but if it doesn't I know who I can asked to find out why it didn't. And what I always find out is that even when I misunderstood, He even had a reason for that.

That lady will turn back to the one she heard. I know, because even when I felt things didn't turn out like I expected, I had to turn back to Him. He has the words of life. She will, and get an explaination. And I wouldn't blame her for not going back to a church who told her not to believe in God. I wouldn't blame her for not going to a church that preach "Biblical faith" instead of "Godly faith", and failed to reconize the difference.

The Lord is a bit like a "Lays Potatoe Chip" - once you have started hearing from Him, you have to turn back to Him for more. So yeah, that lady might be dissapointed now, but she'll turn back to Him, and if she does she'll find out that He was indeed God (maybe she just didn't quite understand exatcly what He was saying), But will she go back to that church that told her not to believe?? I wouldn't. He'd have to talk me into it, but I'd asked Him, "Lord, Why should I go listen to them, when they who say they believe, don't listen to you Lord?"

So explaining that God is a bit strange and doesn't always do things like we think, is fine, and telling someone to test the spritis is good, but telling people not to seek the voice of the Lord and believe is just plain wrong!!
 
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