Two Kinds of Christianity?

[JackRT]

Speaking again as a Canadian, I think that there is a very real difference between American and Canadian societal attitudes. Much of the difference lies in our respective histories. Americans have had quite a violent history including a bitterly fought Revolutionary War, a bloody Civil War and numerous and quite un-necessary wars of aggression against Canada and Mexico and the attempted genocide of the American Indian. You were also a frontier society with sometimes no law on that frontier. Canada has largely avoided most of all that. This has profoundly affected our national psyches. If asked about values an American might say "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" where as a Canadian might say "Peace, order and good government". All this has led to real differences in the way Canadians react to such issues as religious differences, racial differences, immigration, health care, domestic policy, foreign policy, homosexuality and even abortion.

 

[frienden thalord]

Man this nation, this world has serious sin in the streets.
Libraries are letting drag queens teach our two , three, four , five year olds.
And when a man asked to the above said libraries why is this., He was told we express and encourage freedom to express.
Same library when asked would you consider letting one the bible. A definite NO was the answer.
We in the days of lott and noah, when the men wanted to KNOW the man angels and NO truth was tolerated .

 

[frienden thalord]

And churches are selling out and marrying same sex.
When Obama said don't worry this wont affect your religious beliefs , I knew he was lying.
should have looked over to uk for that example. THEY got marriage
BUT it aint enough. it never was about marriage, it was about ridding the world of TRUTH.
lust cant fulfill.
That is why I KNEW when gay marriage got accepted. I heard , BY THE HOLY SPIRIT,
these very words. When the diamond has lost her luster , they will come for the church.
Now , they want to push that wicked agenda into churches.
And worse , our poor infantile children are growing up being fed a boy can be a girl
a girl can be a boy, or be both , or be alien. BUT DONT DARE preach that bible.
We would have to be blind , not to see TWO things. Number one persecution is coming for us. So be it
I fear not man. Number two. the end is getting ever nearer. cause I seem to recall JESUS
saying IT will be like the days of lott and noah. Be blessed now. and let that sink in.

 

[JackRT]

saying IT will be like the days of lott and noah. Be blessed now. and let that sink in

And how did Lot react when the men of the town came to abuse the visitors? Yes, just like righteous man that God thought he was, Lot offered the mob his virgin daughters. Well done Lot, you are an inspiration to us daily.

 

[frienden thalord]

And how did Lot react when the men of the town came to abuse the visitors? Yes, just like righteous man that God thought he was, Lot offered the mob his virgin daughters. Well done Lot, you are an inspiration to us daily.

Lott is the most well known example. but not the only one. remember why the tribe of Benjamin has to go get other wives.
Another man offered a woman to the mob ,that too wanted to KNOW the men..........
I noticed a pattern. IT seems when same sex got big , always a destruction came .
Wonder what pattern we are on today.

 

[Albion]

There are extremists on both sides who would like to shut down healthy debate and promote groupthink. And some who might even promote violence, although you must admit they are in a vanishingly small minority..

Unfortunately, they appear to be a growing number, as witness all the riots and violent counter-demonstrations financed by George Soros lately and encouraged by the Democratic Party. Did you see all the weapons taken by the police in Portland just yesterday as some of these Liberal Fascists (as they're now being called) attacked them with bricks, fireworks, and bottles?

 

[redleghunter]

Excellent. Yes, I should have added that many of the Christians I'm referring to are generous, kind, giving people on a personal level. But when it comes to political solutions to human problems, it's like their hearts become hard. I think the key must be that they believe charity should be done by people and organizations and not by government programs. The problem with that is that there aren't always people and organizations available to help. We have safety nets in the U.S. that help make it possible for us not to have to see people dying in the streets. But it seems like if it were up to some of my Christian friends, there would be no safety net programs at all.

Why do Christians need politics, politicians and government to be generous? Christ commanded us to express Christian love. He did not command Caesar to tend His flock or feed the masses.

There's quite a distinction there.

Our government enforces the law, provides for the common defense, builds roads and other infrastructure, protects our borders. Our government also by the provision of tax revenues provides a social safety net for the elderly, poor, sick and unemployed.

I think the point of contention is if one is able of body and mind they should work and provide for themselves and their family. That is also a Biblical principle.

Other than basic needs, Jesus never addressed Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Meaning what we see argued often is what is called a "living wage" which can mean quite a few things to many. It could mean comfort items, cable tv and three cars per family.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Don't like the free market check out some of the markets in the world that are not free there you will find true corruption at its worst.

The Bible teaches to take care of the poor that's for sure but, it also says that the lazy ones should not eat so where do we draw the line?

Sure are a lot of lazy ones these days.

M-Bob

 

[Phil 1:21]

How is it so many Christians can ignore Biblical principles of taking care of the poor and vulnerable?

Taking care of the poor and vulnerable should center around providing them the resources to become self-sufficient (education, temporary assistance etc.), not enslaving them with career welfare so they’ll continue to vote for the hand that feeds them.

How can they seem to believe we don't have an obligation to be good stewards of this beautiful earth God gave us?

Who believes that? Just because someone rejects the notion that the planet will be destroyed if they don’t drive a Prius doesn’t mean they’re lighting tire fires in their back yard.

How can they be in favor of the free market when it has been shown through painful experience to be fraught with greed, dishonesty and corruption, and when Scripture has so many harsh warnings about the evils of wealth?

We have a regulated free market in this country. It’s not perfect, but it’s a lot better than the socialist models of places live Cuba and Venezuela. As a side note, Jesus was supported by people of means, especially women, one of whom dumped perfume worth a year’s wages on Him. Wealth isn’t the problem; it’s what one does with it.

How can they seem so heartless when it comes to treatment of foreigners when the Bible is loaded with commandments to be generous with "widows, orphans, and the stranger"?

Do you have a lock on the door of your house? If so, why?

How can they be in favor of violence (war, capital punishment, torture, an expanded military, etc.) to solve America's problems when the Bible so clearly says that violence is not the answer?

We live in a fallen world, and despite what Katy Perry says, hugging terrorists will not make them stop being terrorists. There is nothing unbiblical about self-defense.

 

[Kenny'sID]

How is it so many Christians can ignore Biblical principles of taking care of the poor and vulnerable?

Because they don't want to bother taking care of those people, even to the point of creating/buying into a spin on Christianity that says they don't have to.

"We're under grace alone, we aren't under the law, and if you feel obligated to take care of the poor for instance (Like the bible demands) you are under the law and cursed."

See what I mean?

Why do they do that? Because they don't want to step up and take the responsibility they must as a Christian, but instead free themselves up to where they can have their cake and eat it too.

In short the ones to which I refer (not all) love their money, are selfish with their time, and are allowed in their world to be that way and still enter the kingdom of heaven.

Sorry you asked?

But seriously, hope that covers that question anyway, and it may bleed over into other parts of your inquiry.

 

[JudyH]

Speaking again as a Canadian, I think that there is a very real difference between American and Canadian societal attitudes. Much of the difference lies in our respective histories. Americans have had quite a violent history including a bitterly fought Revolutionary War, a bloody Civil War and numerous and quite un-necessary wars of aggression against Canada and Mexico and the attempted genocide of the American Indian. You were also a frontier society with sometimes no law on that frontier. Canada has largely avoided most of all that. This has profoundly affected our national psyches. If asked about values an American might say "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" where as a Canadian might say "Peace, order and good government". All this has led to real differences in the way Canadians react to such issues as religious differences, racial differences, immigration, health care, domestic policy, foreign policy, homosexuality and even abortion.

Thanks, Jack, that's a very interesting perspective. Sometimes I think our American "rugged individualism" gets us in trouble.

 

[JudyH]

And how did Lot react when the men of the town came to abuse the visitors? Yes, just like righteous man that God thought he was, Lot offered the mob his virgin daughters. Well done Lot, you are an inspiration to us daily.

The story of Lot is often used to prove the evils of homosexuality. But it's really about him protecting men he knew were angels sent by God. The fact that he offered his daughters, which no doubt would have been a huge heartbreak, is evidence that he thought protecting the angels was more important.

 

[JudyH]

Don't like the free market check out some of the markets in the world that are not free there you will find true corruption at its worst.

The Bible teaches to take care of the poor that's for sure but, it also says that the lazy ones should not eat so where do we draw the line?

Sure are a lot of lazy ones these days.

M-Bob

But how do you decide who is lazy and who has a genuine need? Would you take help away from those in need in order to prevent the help going to lazy bums?

 

[JudyH]

Lott is the most well known example. but not the only one. remember why the tribe of Benjamin has to go get other wives.
Another man offered a woman to the mob ,that too wanted to KNOW the men..........
I noticed a pattern. IT seems when same sex got big , always a destruction came .
Wonder what pattern we are on today.

But I think we put too much emphasis on homosexuality. Sin is sin is sin. The Bible says that judgment begins at the house of God. If we look within our own ranks, we can find plenty of sin to cause us concern about God's judgment. For instance, God hates divorce, and Jesus talked about divorce. Do I hear the Christian church speaking out about the evils of divorce and how God's judgment is going to fall on us because of it? How about fornication? Sex outside of marriage is very common now, even within the Christian church. The Bible is full of warnings about fornication, but I haven't heard Christians speaking up much about THAT.

We have plenty of reason to believe destruction might be coming, but there's a lot more to it than homosexuality, in my humble opinion.

 

[JudyH]

Because they don't want to bother taking care of those people, even to the point of creating/buying into a spin on Christianity that says they don't have to.

"We're under grace alone, we aren't under the law, and if you feel obligated to take care of the poor for instance (Like the bible demands) you are under the law and cursed."

See what I mean?

Yes. But I think what I'm noticing is that these Christians do not mind helping other people and in fact believe that as Christians that's what we do. Their objection is that they don't want Uncle Sam taking their hard-earned money to take care of the poor and vulnerable. At least that's what I think I'm hearing. There does seem to be a pervasive notion that there are a lot of lazy bums out there who love the Democrats because Democrats promise to give them hand-outs and are happily turning our country into a welfare state just in order to get more votes. I'm hearing similar things from my usually level-headed evangelical friends. Sigh.

 

[JackRT]

Why myths about poor endure

by Judith McCormack in the Toronto Star

Our perceptions of poor people are full of stubborn myths. The man who picks up his welfare cheque in a white Cadillac, the teenage mother with a flock of illegitimate children, the loafer who works the system instead of a job – these are the stuff of urban legends. The reality of poverty is surprisingly different. To begin with, the proportion of single parents on welfare who are under 20 years old is very small – 3 per cent, according to a National Council on Welfare study. And nearly half of all single parent families on welfare have only one child, with another 31 per cent having only two children. That couch potato with a weak work ethic? Another myth. The grim truth is that more than half of all poor people are working. And even bleaker – almost one-third of people on welfare are children. When the proportion of poor people with disabilities is added to this mix, the picture looks quite different. There is a notable absence of white Cadillacs among the poor as well. Welfare incomes typically hover at around half the poverty line, not nearly enough money for adequate food or housing, let alone a car. Perhaps the most persistent of these fallacies is the idea of widespread welfare fraud. In fact, the evidence suggests that the rate of welfare fraud is quite low.

As professors Janet Mosher and Joe Hermer found in a report to the Law Commission of Canada, the number of welfare fraud convictions in Ontario in 2001-02 was roughly equivalent to 0.1 per cent of the combined social assistance caseload. Even more telling is that these convictions represented only 1 per cent of the allegations about welfare offences. And there were a large number of allegations – 38,452 welfare fraud investigations were conducted that year. The end tally? Ninety-nine per cent of them did not result in convictions. In other words, a great deal of time and energy is spent looking for welfare fraud, but there doesn't seem to be much to find.

So why are these myths so resilient, despite the evidence to the contrary? One reason has to do with underlying economic fears in society at large. For many people, concerns about financial insecurity and ending up poor are never far from the surface. These fears can be handled by assigning certain traits to the poor that make them different from the rest of society. If we think of the poor as lazy and dishonest, then it seems less likely that poverty will happen to us, the hard-working, the responsible. But these stereotypes are not merely the result of personal fears. They serve a number of other purposes as well. Blaming the poor for their own plight makes it possible to avoid a more searching examination of the social and economic factors that contribute to poverty.

For example, unemployment is an important determinant of poverty. But the unemployment rate is closely linked to broader economic policy decisions. Increasing interest rates, for instance, usually results in fewer jobs and higher unemployment. This means that finding a job is like a game of musical chairs for the poor. No matter how motivated an individual person may be, there will always be too few chairs to go around. Similarly, a low minimum wage, or a lack of affordable housing are public policy choices that have a direct effect on poverty. Stigmatizing the poor allows politicians and policy-makers to ignore responsibility for those decisions.

The myths about poverty often serve other political purposes as well. Defining the poor as lazy or irresponsible creates popular villains for the rest of us to condemn. It panders to a human weakness to feel superior to someone, and provides a handy target for complaints about tax dollars. The same is true when those stereotypes are dressed up in the jargon of "welfare dependency," argued as the reason why poor children sometimes end up as poor adults. The real problem is that poor children have severely limited resources, which often translates into less education and fewer opportunities as they get older. They may indeed end up losing that game of musical chairs, but not because of a particular mindset.

The truth is that, like the rest of us, poor people engage in a wide range of moral conduct and possess a broad array of personal traits and psychological outlooks. And the way to address a complex problem like economic inequality is from a variety of different angles. Rather than scapegoating the poor, there are a series of practical steps that would have a significant impact on poverty. Several of these steps have been canvassed in these pages – a higher minimum wage, affordable housing, universal child care, a guaranteed income, and accessible education. These measures go to some of the most fundamental principles of civil society: ensuring human dignity and a fair shake for everyone, regardless of income.

 

[frienden thalord]

But I think we put too much emphasis on homosexuality. Sin is sin is sin. The Bible says that judgment begins at the house of God. If we look within our own ranks, we can find plenty of sin to cause us concern about God's judgment. For instance, God hates divorce, and Jesus talked about divorce. Do I hear the Christian church speaking out about the evils of divorce and how God's judgment is going to fall on us because of it? How about fornication? Sex outside of marriage is very common now, even within the Christian church. The Bible is full of warnings about fornication, but I haven't heard Christians speaking up much about THAT.

We have plenty of reason to believe destruction might be coming, but there's a lot more to it than homosexuality, in my humble opinion.

Its for all sins judgment is coming. Remarriage you name it . The church has allowed evil to fill
it to the full. Homosexuality is just one of the more recent sins its let in.
We nearing the end and yes judgment will begin at the church. In fact
the very weapon has been formed that leads all peoples , religions , tribes and tongues
right to the son of perdition. ITS called INTERFAITH. and its been Born.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yes. But I think what I'm noticing is that these Christians do not mind helping other people and in fact believe that as Christians that's what we do. Their objection is that they don't want Uncle Sam taking their hard-earned money to take care of the poor and vulnerable. At least that's what I think I'm hearing. There does seem to be a pervasive notion that there are a lot of lazy bums out there who love the Democrats because Democrats promise to give them hand-outs and are happily turning our country into a welfare state just in order to get more votes. I'm hearing similar things from my usually level-headed evangelical friends. Sigh.

My post wasn't about the Uncle Sam at all, or what we have to give as tax payers. But on that note, some of those on Government assistance need help and some don't, that is true. I see that like I see the man on the street asking for food, and I "think" he "might" buy drugs or whatever with the money, am I going to try to judge him to the point he gets nothing (really for my benefit) or just give it freely and let the chips fall where they may? I prefer the later, to give in good faith, and any lies are on the recipient, but that's me.

Now on government waste, that's another story and not the fault of the truly needy but to their disadvantage, not to mention the disadvantages to taxpayers, and all due to lazy Government workers. The first hand stories I could tell for the asking.

Anyway, I was talking about giving out of our pockets or even physically doing something to help the poor, on a voluntary basis. Some people just don't want to mess with any of it, or many things that are biblical for that matter and they cover their inaction with a chosen theology.

 

[only a sojourner]

I am Charismàtic Christian conservative on social isues but we'll to the left on economic issues. I occasionally post on this forum. It is very clear that I am very much at variance with my group. There are others with somewhat similar views but they are a small minority. It seems to me that much of conservative Christianity has absorbed the materialistic, consumeristic values of the wider culture. It differs considerably from the Christianity practiced in the first few to several hundred years following the Ressurection. Very early Christianity at least prior to Constantine was pacifist. The Desert Father's as well as the essential thrust of Christianity at the time opposed the accumulation of wealth. In the first few centuries being a Christian often meant suffering, sacrifice and persecution. Charismàtic gifts were evident.

 

[more4less]

I am deeply perplexed that many of my political views differ wildly from those of many dear Christian sisters and brothers that I've known for a long time.

I am a registered Democrat, although I think of myself as more of an Independent. I am opposed to some aspects of the Democratic platform (especially unrestrained abortion rights) and I am also opposed to some aspects of the Republican platform. On balance, I prefer Democratic concern for the underdog over Republican "every man for himself" ideology.

What I really don't understand, and what troubles me greatly, is how we can read the same Bible and come to such different conclusions. I have friends who are deeply conservative Christian evangelicals, and I have done my best to listen to them and understand their perspective, but I feel like my brain locks up when I try to wrap it around their beliefs. How can this be? And if I persist in trying to discuss these things, someone gets offended and I figure I'd better shut up.

So I'm hoping in a forum like this, where I don't know anyone and don't have to worry so much about offending someone who is important to me, maybe people can help me understand better. Let me start by asking some questions.

How is it so many Christians can ignore Biblical principles of taking care of the poor and vulnerable?

How can they seem to believe we don't have an obligation to be good stewards of this beautiful earth God gave us?

How can they be in favor of the free market when it has been shown through painful experience to be fraught with greed, dishonesty and corruption, and when Scripture has so many harsh warnings about the evils of wealth?

How can they seem so heartless when it comes to treatment of foreigners when the Bible is loaded with commandments to be generous with "widows, orphans, and the stranger"?

How can they be in favor of violence (war, capital punishment, torture, an expanded military, etc.) to solve America's problems when the Bible so clearly says that violence is not the answer?

I think I have determined that many of these Christians believe there is a different standard for nations than there is for individuals. Is this true? Is it valid? Is this the bottom line--that they don't want government telling them what to do?

I probably have lots more questions, but will leave it at this for now. I'm sure these things have all been discussed in this forum many times over, but I'm hoping some of you won't mind repeating some things and helping me understand better. Thanks for your patience.

Adolf Hitler and the KKK claimed to be Christians. Because they claimed it, doesn't means that they are.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Matthew 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.


She crept into an adjoining room and faced a full-length mirror. Beneath her dress chunks of her were missing. Bite marks covered her face, neck, breasts, back, legs and ankles, a macabre pattern of polka dots etched along her skin. She was bleeding from the mouth; he had even chewed her tongue. Her hand was steadier this time, lifting the gun to her temple, when she heard a step outside the door and the squeak of a turning knob. It was one of Stephenson’s associates. She buried the gun into the fold of her dress and slipped it back into the sleeping man’s pocket. She would find another way to kill herself, if he didn’t kill her first.



Read more: “Murder Wasn’t Very Pretty”: The Rise and Fall of D.C. Stephenson | History | Smithsonian
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