Two Kinds of Christianity?

[JudyH]

I am deeply perplexed that many of my political views differ wildly from those of many dear Christian sisters and brothers that I've known for a long time.

I am a registered Democrat, although I think of myself as more of an Independent. I am opposed to some aspects of the Democratic platform (especially unrestrained abortion rights) and I am also opposed to some aspects of the Republican platform. On balance, I prefer Democratic concern for the underdog over Republican "every man for himself" ideology.

What I really don't understand, and what troubles me greatly, is how we can read the same Bible and come to such different conclusions. I have friends who are deeply conservative Christian evangelicals, and I have done my best to listen to them and understand their perspective, but I feel like my brain locks up when I try to wrap it around their beliefs. How can this be? And if I persist in trying to discuss these things, someone gets offended and I figure I'd better shut up.

So I'm hoping in a forum like this, where I don't know anyone and don't have to worry so much about offending someone who is important to me, maybe people can help me understand better. Let me start by asking some questions.

How is it so many Christians can ignore Biblical principles of taking care of the poor and vulnerable?

How can they seem to believe we don't have an obligation to be good stewards of this beautiful earth God gave us?

How can they be in favor of the free market when it has been shown through painful experience to be fraught with greed, dishonesty and corruption, and when Scripture has so many harsh warnings about the evils of wealth?

How can they seem so heartless when it comes to treatment of foreigners when the Bible is loaded with commandments to be generous with "widows, orphans, and the stranger"?

How can they be in favor of violence (war, capital punishment, torture, an expanded military, etc.) to solve America's problems when the Bible so clearly says that violence is not the answer?

I think I have determined that many of these Christians believe there is a different standard for nations than there is for individuals. Is this true? Is it valid? Is this the bottom line--that they don't want government telling them what to do?

I probably have lots more questions, but will leave it at this for now. I'm sure these things have all been discussed in this forum many times over, but I'm hoping some of you won't mind repeating some things and helping me understand better. Thanks for your patience.

 

[brinny]

I am deeply perplexed that many of my political views differ wildly from those of many dear Christian sisters and brothers that I've known for a long time.

I am a registered Democrat, although I think of myself as more of an Independent. I am opposed to some aspects of the Democratic platform (especially unrestrained abortion rights) and I am also opposed to some aspects of the Republican platform. On balance, I prefer Democratic concern for the underdog over Republican "every man for himself" ideology.

What I really don't understand, and what troubles me greatly, is how we can read the same Bible and come to such different conclusions. I have friends who are deeply conservative Christian evangelicals, and I have done my best to listen to them and understand their perspective, but I feel like my brain locks up when I try to wrap it around their beliefs. How can this be? And if I persist in trying to discuss these things, someone gets offended and I figure I'd better shut up.

So I'm hoping in a forum like this, where I don't know anyone and don't have to worry so much about offending someone who is important to me, maybe people can help me understand better. Let me start by asking some questions.

How is it so many Christians can ignore Biblical principles of taking care of the poor and vulnerable?

How can they seem to believe we don't have an obligation to be good stewards of this beautiful earth God gave us?

How can they be in favor of the free market when it has been shown through painful experience to be fraught with greed, dishonesty and corruption, and when Scripture has so many harsh warnings about the evils of wealth?

How can they seem so heartless when it comes to treatment of foreigners when the Bible is loaded with commandments to be generous with "widows, orphans, and the stranger"?

How can they be in favor of violence (war, capital punishment, torture, an expanded military, etc.) to solve America's problems when the Bible so clearly says that violence is not the answer?

I think I have determined that many of these Christians believe there is a different standard for nations than there is for individuals. Is this true? Is it valid? Is this the bottom line--that they don't want government telling them what to do?

I probably have lots more questions, but will leave it at this for now. I'm sure these things have all been discussed in this forum many times over, but I'm hoping some of you won't mind repeating some things and helping me understand better. Thanks for your patience.

What most caught my attention in your post is this:

How is it so many Christians can ignore Biblical principles of taking care of the poor and vulnerable?

In just the book of Isaiah alone, there are myriads of verses that highlight God's heart for the very ones you state in the above sentence. Especially in the shedding of innocent blood...the ones who are most helpless, vulnerable, and without voices or the means to speak out for themselves and to defend themselves. It's all throughout the Bible how God abhors this. In addition, there are those seven things that God, it is written "hates".

I cannot remember the exact verse, off the top of my head. Do you know which verse i am referring to?

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I gave up on political parties since all parties have views that contradict biblical views. That said two people can be from the same party yet disagree about the bible/being a christian. Its just how things are sadly. Even the bible says brother will turn on brother and what not.

 

[HereIStand]

All good questions, JuyH. There are indeed problems with the every person for himself approach to economics. As far as Christians helping the poor, a book that I found helpful is Toxic Charity: How Churches and Charities Hurt Those They Help and How to Reverse It, by Robert Lupton. He notes that charity works best when it's long-term, and handled at the local level. Top-down charity and short-term charity not only will have little impact, it may exacerbate poverty.

Lupton argues in favor of community food co-ops, rather than food banks. He shares stories of well-intentioned Christians buying expensive gifts for the children of an inner-city family, and only succeeding in embarrassing the parents for whom such gifts would be too expensive. He also shares stories of the downsides of short-term church mission trips -- the expense and demands on the hosts, a Latin American school painted multiple times by different church groups, work done by church groups that's taken away from local craftsman.

 

[stevenfrancis]

For what it's worth, after years of torturing myself trying to fit Christianity into a political party, it doesn't work. Jesus is apolitical. The doctrines of the Christian thing don't fit nicely into ANY box. Christ is a challenge to all who come to know Him. There is nowhere in scripture where He tells us that we will be loved by the world. In fact, He told us He chose us out of the world. If the world hated Him, it will hate us too. Having been both an American Democrat and an American Republican politically, I gave them both up, ultimately for the same reason. They are of the world. They think as men think. Their platforms are disingenuous, and not motivated by love. Neither of them. And if you belong to either one, and feel a moral superiority, you are sorely mistaken. God is love. All who live in love, live in God, and God in them. If we apply this as a test to politics, politics falls apart pretty quickly.

 

[Hidden In Him]

What I really don't understand, and what troubles me greatly, is how we can read the same Bible and come to such different conclusions. I have friends who are deeply conservative Christian evangelicals, and I have done my best to listen to them and understand their perspective, but I feel like my brain locks up when I try to wrap it around their beliefs. How can this be?

Different personalities, my dear. Christian or non-Christian, this will never cease to be the case. And because we have different personalities, we have different viewpoints on the same issue.

How is it so many Christians can ignore Biblical principles of taking care of the poor and vulnerable?

I don't think it's that conservatives ignore the plight of the poor at all. They just have a different take on what would ultimately be the best way to take care of them. Who is right and who is wrong is up to debate, of course.

How can they seem to believe we don't have an obligation to be good stewards of this beautiful earth God gave us?

Again, Judy. Maybe conservatives will argue that human life should take precedence over the planet, unless you're talking about destroying the whole thing entirely.

How can they be in favor of the free market when it has been shown through painful experience to be fraught with greed, dishonesty and corruption, and when Scripture has so many harsh warnings about the evils of wealth?

Because socialism has been proven multiple times over to be a failed system.

How can they seem so heartless when it comes to treatment of foreigners when the Bible is loaded with commandments to be generous with "widows, orphans, and the stranger"?

Because a significant portion of those strangers are capable of strapping a bomb to their chest, yelling "Allahu Akbar!," and taking out dozens and dozens of innocent people in their desire to exact punishment on the infidels for their sins. I guess I'll just stop there and say try having an open mind for the Christian perspectives of others. I certainly have respect for yours. But I have respect for theirs as well.

God bless.

 

[zippy2006]

For what it's worth, after years of torturing myself trying to fit Christianity into a political party, it doesn't work. Jesus is apolitical. The doctrines of the Christian thing don't fit nicely into ANY box. Christ is a challenge to all who come to know Him. There is nowhere in scripture where He tells us that we will be loved by the world. In fact, He told us He chose us out of the world. If the world hated Him, it will hate us too. Having been both an American Democrat and an American Republican politically, I gave them both up, ultimately for the same reason. They are of the world. They think as men think. Their platforms are disingenuous, and not motivated by love. Neither of them. And if you belong to either one, and feel a moral superiority, you are sorely mistaken. God is love. All who live in love, live in God, and God in them. If we apply this as a test to politics, politics falls apart pretty quickly.

It seems to me that you may be confusing motivations with positions. When a Christian claims that the positions of a particular political party align more closely with Christian teachings, they are not saying that the motivations of all the politicians who belong to that party are wholesome or Christian-based. They are only saying that the position itself aligns more closely with Christianity than the opposing position.

For example, I think the pro-life position is more representative of Christian teaching than the pro-choice position. This doesn't mean that I think all pro-life politicians are not "worldly," or do not "think as men think." The motivations of politicians have no bearing on my pro-life belief.

The reason why politics doesn't map neatly to Christianity--and this applies to the OP as well--is because Christianity is about ends and politics is about means, and complicated political means to lofty Christian ends presents a puzzle so complex as to be essentially unsolvable by finite human minds. This is why the Catholic Church provides authentically Christian principles by which one can judge any political system, coming to one's own conclusion about the best means by which to achieve Christian ends. (Such principles include things like the preferential option for the poor, subsidiarity, promotion of the common good, and the protection of the family.)

Edit: Incidentally, I mistook you for FireDragon76, who has the same profile picture.

 

[Albion]

I am deeply perplexed that many of my political views differ wildly from those of many dear Christian sisters and brothers that I've known for a long time.

I am a registered Democrat, although I think of myself as more of an Independent. I am opposed to some aspects of the Democratic platform (especially unrestrained abortion rights) and I am also opposed to some aspects of the Republican platform. On balance, I prefer Democratic concern for the underdog over Republican "every man for himself" ideology.

What I really don't understand, and what troubles me greatly, is how we can read the same Bible and come to such different conclusions. I have friends who are deeply conservative Christian evangelicals, and I have done my best to listen to them and understand their perspective, but I feel like my brain locks up when I try to wrap it around their beliefs. How can this be? And if I persist in trying to discuss these things, someone gets offended and I figure I'd better shut up.

1. The Democratic Party doesn't care about the poor and less fortunate. It uses them to win elections and hold power.

2. No one is preventing any of us from acting out our Christianity, giving to the poor, helping the homeless, and so on. Forcing other people to do what we think is charitable and loving is what you're talking about.

I'm hoping in a forum like this, where I don't know anyone and don't have to worry so much about offending someone who is important to me, maybe people can help me understand better. Let me start by asking some questions.

How is that so many Christians can ignore Biblical principles of taking care of the poor and vulnerable?

Hard to say with precision, but I thought we were going to discuss politics.

How can they seem to believe we don't have an obligation to be good stewards of this beautiful earth God gave us?

The Bible says that God gave all of this for our use, not to worship it.

How can they be in favor of the free market when it has been shown through painful experience to be fraught with greed, dishonesty and corruption, and when Scripture has so many harsh warnings about the evils of wealth?

It's not the free market that makes people dishonest, etc. That is the consequence of sin, and you're only fooling yourself if you think that Socialism, Communism, or some other ism that promises to create a perfect society will not produce greed, corruption, and all the rest of that. Take a look at Venezuela.

How can they seem so heartless when it comes to treatment of foreigners when the Bible is loaded with commandments to be generous with "widows, orphans, and the stranger"?

Perhaps they think that the people who work to pay the bills here should not have it taken from them by force to give to people who haven't earned it. Perhaps they think that the relatives who are now brokenhearted because their loved ones have been violated, maimed, or even killed by people who ought not to be here aren't of interest to the people who want unlimited and unsupervised immigration as well as a policy of deporting none of them, not even the felons. Maybe we ought to think of the poor here and the victims of injustice here before we push them aside in order to accommodate someone else. But you, as a Christian and a Democrat are perfectly free to do your best. Have you sold all you have and given it to the poor as the Bible recommends? If not, why not?

How can they be in favor of violence (war, capital punishment, torture, an expanded military, etc.) to solve America's problems when the Bible so clearly says that violence is not the answer?

Who's "in favor of violence???" Right now and in this country it's the supporters of your party that promote and engage in violence against anyone who is even suspected of thinking something that they disapprove of. You are a caring person, so what are you doing about that?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I am deeply perplexed that many of my political views differ wildly from those of many dear Christian sisters and brothers that I've known for a long time.

I am a registered Democrat, although I think of myself as more of an Independent. I am opposed to some aspects of the Democratic platform (especially unrestrained abortion rights) and I am also opposed to some aspects of the Republican platform. On balance, I prefer Democratic concern for the underdog over Republican "every man for himself" ideology.

What I really don't understand, and what troubles me greatly, is how we can read the same Bible and come to such different conclusions. I have friends who are deeply conservative Christian evangelicals, and I have done my best to listen to them and understand their perspective, but I feel like my brain locks up when I try to wrap it around their beliefs. How can this be? And if I persist in trying to discuss these things, someone gets offended and I figure I'd better shut up.

So I'm hoping in a forum like this, where I don't know anyone and don't have to worry so much about offending someone who is important to me, maybe people can help me understand better. Let me start by asking some questions.

How is it so many Christians can ignore Biblical principles of taking care of the poor and vulnerable?

How can they seem to believe we don't have an obligation to be good stewards of this beautiful earth God gave us?

How can they be in favor of the free market when it has been shown through painful experience to be fraught with greed, dishonesty and corruption, and when Scripture has so many harsh warnings about the evils of wealth?

How can they seem so heartless when it comes to treatment of foreigners when the Bible is loaded with commandments to be generous with "widows, orphans, and the stranger"?

How can they be in favor of violence (war, capital punishment, torture, an expanded military, etc.) to solve America's problems when the Bible so clearly says that violence is not the answer?

I think I have determined that many of these Christians believe there is a different standard for nations than there is for individuals. Is this true? Is it valid? Is this the bottom line--that they don't want government telling them what to do?

I probably have lots more questions, but will leave it at this for now. I'm sure these things have all been discussed in this forum many times over, but I'm hoping some of you won't mind repeating some things and helping me understand better. Thanks for your patience.

Well taking care of the poor and vulnerable never was meant to be a state program or directive (such as welfare and other liberal leaning programs). Jesus said that we as individuals were to do those things. Otherwise the admonition to sell all you have could be taken to mean the state should take possession of everything.

The evils of wealth abide in the heart of man, on both sides of the aisle. Communist countries where free markets are hideously opposed even have those in power who profit greatly.

Being kind to widows, orphans and strangers doesn't mean accepting those who break the laws of your nation trying to enter. Even scriptures state to honor those in charge over you and the laws of your land. I bet most on either side of the aisle would have a problem praying for the politician that rules over them if they are of a different political party.

 

[JackRT]

Speaking as a Canadian observer of the US political and religious scene, it seems to me that it is only the US that we see this political dichotomy based on religious belief. The political right has hijacked the religious right and is using it to their ends. How else can you possibly explain the widespread support for a man like Donald Trump among evangelicals? This hijack has not served Christianty well but it has certainly benefitted the Republican party.

But going back to the original question:

I am deeply perplexed that many of my political views differ wildly from those of many dear Christian sisters and brothers that I've known for a long time.

Yes, there are two kinds of Christianity as Bruce Bawer in his “Stealing Jesus” explains:

Labels like biblical Christian and Bible-believing Christian, which many conservative Christians attach to themselves, wrongly suggest that there is something unbiblical about the faith of liberal Christians. We might speak of "exclusionists" and "inclusionists," because conservative Christians, unlike liberal Christians, tend to define the word Christian in such a way as to exclude others -- including, in most cases, a large number of their fellow conservative Christians. But it seems to me that the difference between conservative and liberal Christianity may be most succinctly summed up by the difference between two key scriptural concepts: law and love. Simply stated, conservative Christianity focuses primarily on law, doctrine, and authority; liberal Christianity focuses on love, spiritual experience, and what Baptists call the priesthood of the believer. If conservative Christians emphasize the Great Commission -- the resurrected Christ's injunction, at the end of the Gospel according to Matthew, to "go to all nations and make them my disciples" -- liberal Christians place more emphasis on the Great Commandment, which in Luke's Gospel reads as follows: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."

* The Church of Law holds that God loves only the "saved” and that they alone are truly his children; the Church of Love holds that God loves all human beings and that all are his children.

* The Church of Law sees Satan as a real creature, a tempter and deceiver from whom true Christians are defended by their faith but by whom atheists, members of other religions, and "false Christians" are deceived, and whose instruments they can become; for the Church of Love Satan is a metaphor for the potential for evil that exists in each person, Christian or otherwise, and that must be recognized and resisted.

* The Church of Law believes that individuals should be wary of trusting their own minds and emotions, for these can be manipulated by Satan, and that questions and doubts are to be resisted as the work of the Devil; the Church of Love believes that the mind is a gift of God and that God wants us to think for ourselves, to follow our consciences, to ask questions, and to listen for his still, small voice.

* The Church of Law sees "truth" as something established in the Bible and known for sure by true Christians; the Church of Love sees truth as something known wholly only by God toward which the belief statements of religions can only attempt to point the way.

* The Church of Law reads the Bible literally and considers it the ultimate source of truth; the Church of Love insists that the Bible must be read critically, intelligently, and with an understanding of its historical and cultural contexts.

* The Church of Law encourages a suspicion of aesthetic values and a literalistic mentality that tends to thwart spiritual experience; the Church of Love encourages a recognition of mystery and beauty as attributes of the holy.

 

[redleghunter]

How is it so many Christians can ignore Biblical principles of taking care of the poor and vulnerable?

How can they seem to believe we don't have an obligation to be good stewards of this beautiful earth God gave us?

Who are these Christians you speak of?

For example, these are the Christians I know.

Here's just one example of a conservative Evangelical charitable organization's ministry:


Help Families Fleeing the Fighting in Mosul

Emergency Field Hospital Sent as Christmas Gift to Iraq

Loving Care for an Orphan | Samaritan’s Purse Gift Catalog

A Brighter Future for Ebola Widows

Women’s Programs

Crisis & Disaster Response

Feeding Programs

Health & Medical Ministries

Water, Sanitation & Hygiene

Children’s Heart Project

Putting a Stop to Human Trafficking

Deadly Earthquake in Nepal

U.S. Disaster Relief

 

[bekkilyn]

Also, the heretical Prosperity gospel has infiltrated the institution of Christianity in this country. I too am often amazed by the callousness and cruelty in the U.S., often by many who consider themselves to be Christians and proclaiming to act (or not act) in the name of Jesus. Our culture has a severe empathy problem, due in part by decades of propaganda and extreme individualism.

 

[frienden thalord]

I gave up on political parties since all parties have views that contradict biblical views. That said two people can be from the same party yet disagree about the bible/being a christian. Its just how things are sadly. Even the bible says brother will turn on brother and what not.

This was so well said it has to get said again. By grace the Lord pulled me as well out of political parties for both side blaspheme GOD.
sides pick and choose what versions of JESUS sayings and Holy scrips they agree with and shun the rest.
Both sides allow sin and glorify it. And all the while both sides political parties curse the others. Its like
two sides both which have ark sided planks in their eyes and all the while trying to accuse the other.
Don't we KNOW satan knows a house divided cant stand. This nation will as well as the whole world soon be judged hard.
We better flee man and trust ONLY GOD. amen.

 

[JudyH]

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful feedback. I think the most important point here is that we can't fit a political party into a Christian framework. They are of the world, but God's kingdom is not of this world. As one poster pointed out, they are not motivated by love. Let me add that they are motivated by what they believe is RIGHT, but that is not the same thing as love.

We are subjected to propaganda in all directions. I find it very difficult to think above and beyond political perspectives and see things from God's point of view. I don't want to go out of the world, and I don't believe that's God's will for me. I want to be a wise and understanding participant. I'm just not sure how best to do that.

 

[JudyH]

What most caught my attention in your post is this:

In just the book of Isaiah alone, there are myriads of verses that highlight God's heart for the very ones you state in the above sentence. Especially in the shedding of innocent blood...the ones who are most helpless, vulnerable, and without voices or the means to speak out for themselves and to defend themselves. It's all throughout the Bible how God abhors this. In addition, there are those seven things that God, it is written "hates".

I cannot remember the exact verse, off the top of my head. Do you know which verse i am referring to?

I believe you're talking about this, right?--

These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
(Proverbs 6:16-19)

 

[JudyH]

Who are these Christians you speak of?

For example, these are the Christians I know.

Here's just one example of a conservative Evangelical charitable organization's ministry:

Help Families Fleeing the Fighting in Mosul

Emergency Field Hospital Sent as Christmas Gift to Iraq

Loving Care for an Orphan | Samaritan’s Purse Gift Catalog

A Brighter Future for Ebola Widows

Women’s Programs

Crisis & Disaster Response

Feeding Programs

Health & Medical Ministries

Water, Sanitation & Hygiene

Children’s Heart Project

Putting a Stop to Human Trafficking

Deadly Earthquake in Nepal

U.S. Disaster Relief

Excellent. Yes, I should have added that many of the Christians I'm referring to are generous, kind, giving people on a personal level. But when it comes to political solutions to human problems, it's like their hearts become hard. I think the key must be that they believe charity should be done by people and organizations and not by government programs. The problem with that is that there aren't always people and organizations available to help. We have safety nets in the U.S. that help make it possible for us not to have to see people dying in the streets. But it seems like if it were up to some of my Christian friends, there would be no safety net programs at all.

 

[JudyH]

Also, the heretical Prosperity gospel has infiltrated the institution of Christianity in this country. I too am often amazed by the callousness and cruelty in the U.S., often by many who consider themselves to be Christians and proclaiming to act (or not act) in the name of Jesus. Our culture has a severe empathy problem, due in part by decades of propaganda and extreme individualism.

And I might add, not just the Prosperity Gospel, but also Ayn Rand's philosophies, which is particularly baffling to me since she was an atheist.

 

[JudyH]

Speaking as a Canadian observer of the US political and religious scene, it seems to me that it is only the US that we see this political dichotomy based on religious belief. The political right has hijacked the religious right and is using it to their ends. How else can you possibly explain the widespread support for a man like Donald Trump among evangelicals? This hijack has not served Christianty well but it has certainly benefitted the Republican party.

Thanks for your Canadian perspective. I have often thought that as well, that the political right has hijacked the religious right. And I think it was easy to do and the main factor was abortion. I know plenty of Christian conservatives who vote on that one issue alone and don't seem to care about anything else. Thanks also for the quote from "Stealing Jesus."

 

[brinny]

I believe you're talking about this, right?--

These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
(Proverbs 6:16-19)

Yes.

 

[JudyH]

Hard to say with precision, but I thought we were going to discuss politics.

Heh-heh. Well, yes, this is about the intersection of politics and Christianity.

It's not the free market that makes people dishonest, etc. That is the consequence of sin, and you're only fooling yourself if you think that Socialism, Communism, or some other ism that promises to create a perfect society will not produce greed, corruption, and all the rest of that. Take a look at Venezuela.

Agreed. But there must be some kind of compromise position. Laws are given to restrain evildoers, not burden decent people. Government's job is to do what we can't do as individuals.

Have you sold all you have and given it to the poor as the Bible recommends? If not, why not?

I did do that once, in fact. Now there are other people to consider besides myself.

Who's "in favor of violence???" Right now and in this country it's the supporters of your party that promote and engage in violence against anyone who is even suspected of thinking something that they disapprove of. You are a caring person, so what are you doing about that?

There are a few bad eggs in the Democratic party who might do that. There are extremists on both sides who would like to shut down healthy debate and promote groupthink. And some who might even promote violence, although you must admit they are in a vanishingly small minority.

I'm doing my part by trying to understand both sides and promote dialogue. I am listening. That's why I'm here. Thanks for your thoughts.