two house ...

[MyLittleWonders]

Can someone explain all this two-house stuff to me? I've read on some sites that two-house theory is heretical and then on others how it's not and plainly taken from the Bible. My head is kind of spinning (I haven't even told my husband about it ... baby steps here! ). Pros and Cons ... past threads ... any help would be nice.

 

[visionary]

When reading all this stuff about two house....keep this simple verse in your mind....

Mark 3:25
And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

And remember we are of the generation that should see....

1 Corinthians 12:20
But now are they many members, yet but one body.

Ephesians 2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Colossians 3:15
And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

 

[Bruce101]

I have read that, and one of my favorite teachers is two house. I am not sure about it's validity, so I just ignore it because to me it is not important enough to put much energy into.
Bruce

 

[Yahudim]

The "Two Houses" teaching centers on the the prophecies about the return of the house of Joseph along with the house of Judah. One premise of this teaching is that those gentiles that have come to the Messiah are really descendants of the house of Joseph that was scattered into all the nations...

It is based upon these prophecies (I think):

Eze 37:15 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,

Eze 37:16 You, son of man, take one stick, and write on it, For Yehudah, and for the children of Yisra'el his companions: then take another stick, and write on it, For Yosef, the stick of Efrayim, and [for] all the house of Yisra'el his companions:

Eze 37:17 and join them for you one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand.

Eze 37:18 When the children of your people shall speak to you, saying, Will you not show us what you mean by these?

Eze 37:19 tell them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the stick of Yosef, which is in the hand of Efrayim, and the tribes of Yisra'el his companions; and I will put them with it, [even] with the stick of Yehudah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in my hand.

Eze 37:20 The sticks whereon you write shall be in your hand before their eyes.

Eze 37:21 Say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Yisra'el from among the nations, where they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Eze 37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Yisra'el; and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all;

Eze 37:23 neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Eze 37:24 My servant David shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my ordinances, and observe my statutes, and do them.

Eze 37:25 They shall dwell in the land that I have given to Ya`akov my servant, in which your fathers lived; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children's children, forever: and David my servant shall be their prince for ever.

Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of shalom with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore.

Eze 37:27 My tent also shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eze 37:28 The nations shall know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Yisra'el, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore.

Zec 10:3 Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the LORD of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle.

Zec 10:4 Out of him came forth the corner, out of him the nail, out of him the battle bow, out of him every oppressor together.

Zec 10:5 And they shall be as mighty men, which tread down theirenemies in the mire of the streets in the battle: and they shall fight, because the LORD is with them, and the riders on horses shall be confounded.

Zec 10:6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again toplacethem; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them.

Zec 10:7 And theyof Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD.

Zec 10:8 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased.

Zec 10:9 And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again.

Zec 10:10 I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and place shall not be found for them.

Zec 10:11 And he shall pass through the sea with affliction, and shall smite the waves in the sea, and all the deeps of the river shall dry up: and the pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the scepter of Egypt shall depart away.

Zec 10:12 And I will strengthen them in the LORD; and they shall walk up and down in his name, saith the LORD.

This (as I understand it) is closely aligned with the "Sacred Names" teaching too. Eddie Chumney is a proponent of these teachings and more information can be had at http://www.hebroots.com

 

[Shimshon]

To me the Two House doctrine is Messianic Judaism version of Seperate Entity Theology. SET in Christianity views the Church as a body along side of Yisrael(Judah). SET in Messianic Judaism views the house of Yosef as a body along side of Yehuda(Yisrael). Both see the joining of each body into one as the final process/step according to similar scriptures. And a gathering of the scattered is defined. But these two definitions of the gathering never hold water when you compare them to the whole of scripture. They only make sense when using scripture out of context.

Scripture states "Elohim is not a man......." So I form a doctrine that Yeshua can NOT be Elohim because "Elohim is not a man". Yet, if you read the context it means he is not a man "that he should lie" (anthropomorphism).

The MJAA has a good Position Statement regarding the Two House heresy. http://mjaa.org/biblicaljudaism/EphraimiteError.pdf

Or as Talmidim refered to, you could research Eddie Chumney. He too is a proponent of this theology.

 

[yod]

It is interesting theology to a point...but not provable so it ends up being wasted energy.


Forget it...

The scriptures tell us that Adonai will bring the 2 sticks together at the end of days.

In Israel, they believe this has already been fulfilled

 

[insaneinthebrain]

The scriptures tell us that Adonai will bring the 2 sticks together at the end of days.

In Israel, they believe this has already been fulfilled

I actually know a few people who believe themselves Ephraimites. Nice people, but that's a claim I'm really not bold enough to make.

My take on all of this can be summed up in the following statements:

1) It is entirely possible that the 10 tribes are still out there mixed in with the nations.

2) It is entirely possible that I am part of these tribes.

3) It is just as likely, if not more so, that I'm not from one of these tribes.

4) Therefore, I should probably just work on being obedient and not worry about which blessings are mine.

 

[By Grace]

4) Therefore, I should probably just work on being obedient and not worry about which blessings are mine.

I'm having a "Duh!" moment

This statement makes perfect sense. Why do people make it so complicated?

 

[Shimshon]

It becomes complicated when people can't agree on the definition of a term. "obedience" Define that for me Jill. And then let everyone else define it and see just how many different definitions you see.

It's VERY easy, if you leave the defining to Elohim and just follow HIS definition with all the convition YOUR heart possesses. If others claim differently. That is between them and Elohim. If they try and make it between you and them, well, no matter how much they try it will always be between them and Elohim. And that shows their misconception. If it is truly between us and Elohim, those who make it between us and them are incorrect and will find out in the end they were wrong. We probably just have to deal with them so they can be used by Elohim to polish us up. Mercy Mercy Mercy

 

[visionary]

The way we judge matters, is the way we will be judged....you want to be judged as House of Joseph... House of Benjamin...tribe of Judah....gentile...etc....it still doesn't chane the face the God will judge us by the standard we have judged others...

 

[MyLittleWonders]

Thank you all ... I'm in the process of reading the article on the mjaa site - didn't realize it was 51 pages long! My question now though, is how do you know if someone is teaching two-house theory unless they come right out and say it? If someone is a proponent of two-house theory, does that mean one shouldn't pay attention to anything they teach/write? For instance, I'm pretty sure the site I had been getting messianic commentaries for the weekly Torah portion is a proponent of two-house ... does that mean that I should stop with their commentaries? Also, I know Eddie Chumney is a proponent; does that mean I should not read his book about the feasts because it will have a slant? Phew ... why is it that it's so complicated?! Thank you for your patience with my endless questions.

 

[jgonz]

Just to be fair, here's the position paper for TwoHouse beliefs.

lionlamb.net/twohouse (you'll have to cut & paste the website, I don't have enough posts yet to put links. )

Jan

 

[yod]

Most of what the serpent said to Eve was true.

What do you call something that is 99% true?

 

[Bon]

Hi there MyLittleWonders,

This is a long document, but I got a lot of information from the first couple of chapters.

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/restoration/?page=home&type=2

It holds some interesting insights but I believe that we should not base our beliefs on the theory that we gentiles MAY belong to one of the lost 10 tribes of israel.

Never-the-less, it is interesting reading.

Shalom from Bon

 

[jgonz]

I agree, no one should base their belief on the possibility of having Jewish blood somewhere in their geneology. It might be a fun thought, but it's certainly not something to base your belief system on. I, personally, doubt seriously that I have Jewish blood Anywhere in my background. DH, on the other hand, has found out recently (within the last few months) from his mother that one of his grandparents did. Did that change anything? No. We had already been doing the Sabbath and celebrating the Feasts for over 13 yrs. G-d had already put on our hearts to learn and follow Torah.

As far as I understand the Two House teaching, they do NOT say that all born-again believers have Jewish blood &/or are from one of the 10 lost tribes. I have several friends who attend a Two House Messianic congregation (far away from us, or we'd probably go there too), and I specifically asked them about this. They Emphatically Denied that Two House teaching teaches that all believers are of the the 10 lost tribes.

Jan

 

[Conqueror12]

This is a link to a refutation of the MJAA position paper The Ephraimite Error, if you want to hear both sides:

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/misc/?page=comments_truth_about&type=1

My conclusion to what I have studied about this so far is that I agree with the basic truth that we are all Israelites--either we are part of Judah, part of Joseph/Ephraim, or we are grafted in. We all fall into one of these categories, so we are in fact Israel.

 

[Wags]

Boaz Michael of First Fruits of Zion wrote an interesting article about this subject. "Encounters with an Ephramite"

Tim Hegg also wrote one "Two House Theory: Three Fatal Flaws"

 

[visionary]

Always read, alwlays study and always keep an open mind to what God wants you to understand...never hold anything so dear, that would in anyway stop you from loving your neighbor as yourself.

We are all equal in the eyes of God. We all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I have yet to find in all the articles a good reason to want to be in one group or the other here in the end days. From what I have seen the title has no benefits.

Prophetically speaking, the study of the historical movements and groups of people in different areas of the world who have or have not kept the Word of God, and were assigned a title, helps, I suppose, to the show a reason for the variety we have today. For some who believe that this will help in continued understanding as to why such groups behave in such a manner here in the last days, it makes for a interesting study. Bottom line is still God saves individuals, not nations, kindreds or tongues.

 

[yod]

There are plenty of verses about Gentiles (The nations) coming to faith. If they have become Israelites then where are the gentiles which the prophets speak of?

Why didn't Rav Shaul (or any of the Apostles for that matter) teach this doctrine to the gentiles of the world in his day?

This whole debate breaks down with simple logic.

I agree to a certain point with some of the teaching but it's much ado about nothing, imo. Vanity from people who want to make a name for themself.

 

[Conqueror12]

I thought we are grafted in when we "come to faith". We aren't grafted in to Israel? Are we grafted into something else? What am I not understanding about this?

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you, the gentiles, inasmuch as I am an emissary to the gentiles, I esteem my service,
14 if somehow I might provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
15 For if their casting away is the restoration to favour of the world, what is their acceptance but life from the dead?
16 Now if the first-fruit is set-apart, the lump is also. And if the root is set-apart, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, have been grafted in among them, and came to share the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. And if you boast, remember: you do not bear the root, but the root bears you!
19 You shall say then, “The branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
20 Good! By unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by belief. Do not be arrogant, but fear.
21 For if Elohim did not spare the natural branches, He might not spare you either.
22 See then the kindness and sharpness of Elohim: on those who fell sharpness, but toward you kindness, if you continue in His kindness, otherwise you also shall be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for Elohim is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not wish you to be ignorant of this secret, brothers, lest you should be wise in your own estimation, that hardening in part has come over Yisra’el, until the completeness of the gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Yisra’el shall be saved, as it has been written, “The Deliverer shall come out of Tsiyon, and He shall turn away wickedness from Ya'aqob,
27 and this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.”