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Two Challenges about Josephus' 1st Century Description of Jesus

FenderTL5

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Sure, Lukaris.
To clarify, the Testimonium Flavianum refers to Josephus' passage on Jesus in volume 18 of his Antiquities of the Jews. Origen writes that Josephus, being a Jew, didnt consider Him to be the Christ. So my question is can we explain Origen's description of Josephus as nonChristian if the Testimonium is authentic.
Just wondering out loud; could it be that Josephus was a Jew who did not consider Jesus to be the Christ but included the Testimonium Flavianum
within his own writing for the historical value. iow, he placed writing the history above his own personal beliefs?
Again, just musing the thought.
 
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rakovsky

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My theory for Question 1A goes like this:
The Greek text of Antiquities and Eusebius' Greek quote of the Testimonium says "He was the Christ", but the Latin version of Antiquities, and Jerome's Latin translation of the Testimonium says "He was believed to be the Christ", and Rufinus' Latin translation of Eusebius says the same as the Greek one but has a note that the Latin text is correct, that "He was believed to be the Christ". Otherwise the Latin matched the Greek.

My impression is that Josephus was Christian, considering eg. His sympathies for John the Baptist and St James. So in his original Greek version he wrote that Jesus was the Christ. But since Christianity was illegal under Rome, then when it came to the Latin translation, Latin being the preferred language of Roman officialdom, he backtracked a bit and added "was believed to be", meaning it was not his own view, but what "was believed."

In Origen's discussion, he said that Josephus was a nonChristian Jew, that he spoke of "James the brother if Jesus who was called Christ", and that he was forced to practically admit that James' death caused the Temple's destruction. So Origen interpreted such a phrase as "called Christ" to mean the author didnt necessarily believe Jesus was actually Christ. Plus, even though Tacitus or Suetonius said there was turmoil in Rome over Chrestus and didnt say over him who was called Chrestus, it didnt mean they actually believed he WAS Chrestus, the Christ. So Origen, whether he read the Greek or Latin versions, but especially the Latin version could come away thinking Josephus wasn't Christian. The Testimonium has declarations of Jesus' wisdom and marvels, but Origen could have interpreted as things that Josephus was forced to admit, like he wrote that Josephus admitted that James' death led to the Temple's ruin.
Origen doesnt seem very precise in calling Josephus not a Christian, but he wasnt very precise when he said Josephus said the Temple was ruined due to James' death. That was Origen's reading of Josephus' context of James and the Temple, not something Josephus openly stated about James. He probably guessed it based on Josephus' favor toward the Torah. But in Josephus' time many Jewish Christian's revered Torah.
 
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Lukaris

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Sure, Lukaris.
To clarify, the Testimonium Flavianum refers to Josephus' passage on Jesus in volume 18 of his Antiquities of the Jews. Origen writes that Josephus, being a Jew, didnt consider Him to be the Christ. So my question is can we explain Origen's description of Josephus as nonChristian if the Testimonium is authentic.

I am referring to a treatise on hades that William Whiston, anticipating doubts, insisted was written by Josephus. It is linked in my previous post.
 
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rakovsky

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It looks to me like Origen may have been alluding to the Testimonium in his passage on John the Baptist, Jesus, and James, since the Antiquities specifically talk about those figures:
For in the eighteenth volume of the Judaic Antiquities Josephus testifies to John as having been a baptist and promised cleansing to those who were baptized. But he himself, though not believing in Jesus as Christ, in seeking the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these things happening to the people, since they killed the prophecied Christ, even says, being unwillingly not far from the truth, that these things befell the Jews as vengeance for James the just, who was a brother of Jesus who is called Christ, since they killed him who was most just.
In the Antiquities Book 18 that Origen mentions, Josephus refers to John the Baptist and also to Jesus being the prophecied Christ who was killed in a conspiracy, and then in Book 20 Josephus refers to James. Here is the part in the Antiquities that this reminds me of the underlined part above:
"This man was the Christ. And when, on the accusation of some of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first loved him did not cease to do so. For he appeared to them on the third day, living again, the divine prophets having related both these things and countless other marvels about him."
 
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Lukaris

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William Whiston wrote a dissertation upholding his belief that Josephus wrote the discourse to the Greeks re Hades. Scholarship disagrees with Whiston but he gave a detailed account of his position. I have his dissertation but cannot find it online ( pdf etc.). It is listed in the contents as discourse 6 in Whiston ‘s translation of Josephus’ works:
The works of Flavius Josephus ... : to which are added seven dissertations concerning Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, James the Just, God's command to Abraham, etc. (Book, 1850) [WorldCat.org]

Whiston was an Arian but his scholarship is basically sound. We use Eusebius, an Arian, as a source also.
 
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rakovsky

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For Question 1B (How does one explain (B) that the Arabic version was so different than the surviving version of the T.F. and doesn't include such overtly Christian faith assertions?), it looks like the best answer is what Richard Carrier, Alice Whealey, and Roger Viklund suggested: that Bp. Agapius himself made a retelling of the Testimonium that changed its thrust on the issue of Jesus' status as the prophecied Messianic miracle worker. Viklund gives two other instances where Bp. Agapius downplayed stories of Jesus' miracles, particularly related to Jesus' relations with King Abgar V. You can read this on Viklund's page here:
The Jesus Passages in Josephus – a Case Study, part 2n – ”Testimonium Flavianum”: The Church Fathers’ knowledge; The Syriac and Arabic translations, the common sources
 
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Lukaris

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Lukaris,
You are giving an interesting theory about Josephus and the essay "On Hades". I suggest you making a thread about it.

Thanks, I’ll try and I appreciate the history etc. of your threads.
 
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rakovsky

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Regarding Question 2 (what do you think of the depictions of Jesus as unattractive?), Rev. Archimandrite Nektarios Serfes makes it sound as if Jesus was physically attractive. For example, he quotes an apocryphal letter allegedly by a Roman pagan, Lentulus, which says:
The youth is tall but well proportioned. The countenance of His face is both serious and active, so that those who look at Him love Him, and yet in another ways, they are afraid of Him. The hair on His head is the color of wine down to the beginning of His ears, lacking brilliance. It is smooth from the beginning of His ears to His shoulders, then twisted and brilliant from the shoulders down, where it hangs divided according to the customs of the Nazarenes. His forehead is smooth and clean, His face without blemish decorated with a light pink color. His appearance is polite and joyful, His nose and mouth are altogether blameless. His beard is thick being of the same color of His hair, and is also divided in two, while His eyes are blue and filled with extreme brilliance.
Unfortunately, this letter is considered to be a fraud written long after the First century when it was supposedly written.

Typically the Orthodox ikonography makes Jesus look physically pleasant.

Alexander Golubtzov in the Orthodox Theological Encyclopedia (Иисус Христос по внешнему виду - Православная Богословская Энциклопедия), proposes that the early Christians would have kept pictures of Jesus as well as remembered how he looked and would have passed these pictures down over the centuries, even though the earliest remaining decent portraits of Jesus are from the 4th century-5th century. He notes that the Carpocratian Gnostics, according to St Irenaeus (late 2nd century), had images of Christ that they claimed (probably mistakenly) were made by order of Pilate. Lampridius, a later Roman biographer of emperor Alexander Severus (early 3rd century), claimed that this emperor had a figure of Christ that he kept with other religious figures. Eusebius notes that Constantine's sister Constantia wanted a statue of Christ, a desire that Eusebius rejected, but Eusebius nonetheless noted that some other Christians had figures of Christ in their homes.

However, Golubtsev also notes that the Gnostics' depictions are unreliable because in the 2nd century and later there arose a debate over whether Christ was attractive or unattractive looking. He noted that some Church fathers, relying on theological statements like Isaiah 52-53 about the Servant's comeliness, decided that Christ must have literally looked physically unappealing. He says that this opinion was held for about 3-4 centuries. Clement of Alexandria shared this opinion, bsing it on Isaiah 52-53. He also notes that Celsus didn't have difficulty in announcing that Christ was physically unappealing, as if this were well known. Celsus made the argument that if Christ had God's Spirit in Him, then He would look better than others in outward appearance, but that Christians "are aware that He was of small growth and not beautiful in his face."

Alternately, Golubtsev notes, Augustine, Jerome, and Gregory Nissky believed that He looked good physically. Jerome opined that if He didn't have something heavenly in his countenance, the apostles wouldn't have followed Him. St John Chrysostom cited Psalm 44, verse 3, which said "beautiful with goodness more than the sons of men", and he considered the words in Isaiah about the Servant's comeliness to refer to His suffering in the Passion. For me, it's notable that after telling the story of Jesus as a boy in the Temple, one Gospel writer says that Jesus grew in wisdom and in stature, which implies to me that Jesus was tall physically. However, I am speaking for my own perception of the text, not the position of the fathers.

Golubtsev theorizes that these two opposite opinions about His appearance led to the concept of the two statuses of Christ: His humility and His glorification. He also notes that in Augustine's time there was no single drawing of Christ, but rather some quite different images. Golubtsev theorizes that the Jewish Christians were not inclined to draw potraits of Christ because of the ban in the Torah and in Jewish tradition against making images of God.
 
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rakovsky

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William Whiston wrote a dissertation upholding his belief that Josephus wrote the discourse to the Greeks re Hades. Scholarship disagrees with Whiston but he gave a detailed account of his position.
What were some of Whiston's main or stronngest points in arguing that Josephus wrote it?
 
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