Two Cabins

[Chesterton]

Are you stating because the atheist does not believe in Christianity they can not have a solid foundation for moral behavior?

If so, what is your evidence to support this?

What do you mean by "solid"?

 

[Chesterton]

Apparently it DOES need to be discussed.

Stalin destroyed churches in the name of The State, under the guise of "the revolution".

Yes, and...?

 

[Chesterton]

JGG is getting to it. JGG likes to lay the groundwork for his answers rather than just blurting it out and having people not understand. Think traffic laws and social contracts.

No problem.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm not so sure about that. Dahmer's father is an advocate for creationism and Jeff Dahmer was fairly strongly religious earlier in his life. The idea that evolution cheapens life could have been drilled into him from a young age.

However, when you look at interviews after he was arrested and before his "born again" conversion, he mentions nothing at all about evolution, religion or anything. He speaks about mental compulsions that he couldn't control without killing.

He was baptized into the Church of Christ, which is a fairly fundamentalist denomination. I think he was probably being genuine about his beliefs regarding evolution, however I think those beliefs were likely formed post-hoc as a result of his conversion.

That's my guess at least, seeing as it was never an issue for him until he converted. but I could be wrong.

You have to consider one thing though....he's a psychopath. This is someone who's practiced at being convincing. This is someone who's practiced at being deceptive.

When someone like that tells me "X cheapens life." I would seriously have to consider his actions and behavior before I try to decide if his statement is truthful or deceptive. Consider this...what is the Church of Christ's position on homosexuality? You can imagine how it's views on that were likewise drilled into him at a young age. My guess would be that neither evolution nor religion played any real factor into his actions/beliefs. Not before his conversion, and likely not after.

If we're really going to discuss faith and murder and how they are connected, I think John Wayne Gacy is probably a sterling example. He's almost certainly a homosexual who denied his homosexuality. To him, as a staunch Catholic, homosexuality was evil. His MO was to lure young men into his home, forcibly rape them, then murder them for being homosexual. Many of his victims weren't homosexual at all. Its a pattern of self denial and hatred that culminated in the murders of over 33 young men. One has to wonder if this sort of thing would have even happened if Gacy were raised in a household (perhaps an atheist one) that didn't religiously teach him gay is evil.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If it were left to others' opinion of someone, I doubt there would be enough people in Heaven to light the candles.

A person's eternal fate is something between them and God alone- nobody really knows a person's relation with God.
You may very well see some in Heaven who you never thought to see, and others in Hell who you thought wouldn't be. In fact, that will be pretty much certain.

Uh huh...

I will say that I'm definitely looking forward to meeting my fellow CF atheists in hell. Bhsmte, Golden Boy, Paradoxum, Quatona, Selfinflicted, JGG, Davian, PsychoSarah, Eudiamonist...and many more!!!

 

[TheImmortalJellyfish]

Ugh...back to morality...this thread probably belongs in that category; it's not even a question of philosophy.

Morality, no matter how you see it or I see it, no matter where we think it came from, it is not = Christianity, or any religion for that matter. Philosophy is not morality. It's just philosophy. Any tie-ins or attachments of morality to any given philosophy are just intrinsic...everyone has "rules" they can choose to break or not. The atheist in the cabin may or may not fear the law and the repercussions involved with theft, as well as conscience, etc. The Christian has the law AND his/her God to consider...but s/he obviously has the freedom to choose to ignore that as well. This whole scenario is just a "no true Scotsman" fallacy...that's probably been pointed out already, but I'm too lazy to read every post...lol

 

[bhsmte]

What do you mean by "solid"?

You know the difference between a solid foundation and a weak foundation right?

 

[Dave Ellis]

You have to consider one thing though....he's a psychopath. This is someone who's practiced at being convincing. This is someone who's practiced at being deceptive.

That being said, he's never really shown behaviour of being deceptive. He obviously kept his crimes hidden, however the second he was discovered the Police say he was very cooperative, and told them everything they wanted to know.

He spoke of having those compulsions from a young age, but didn't know how to speak about them to anyone, so he kept quiet (which also makes sense in a way).

The man was obviously seriously mentally ill, but he doesn't have any history of being deceptive like a Ted Bundy

When someone like that tells me "X cheapens life." I would seriously have to consider his actions and behavior before I try to decide if his statement is truthful or deceptive. Consider this...what is the Church of Christ's position on homosexuality? You can imagine how it's views on that were likewise drilled into him at a young age. My guess would be that neither evolution nor religion played any real factor into his actions/beliefs. Not before his conversion, and likely not after.

I completely agree that his religious views were probably irrelevant to his crimes. I think we can all agree it was mental illness and he'd have likely killed no matter what his religious views were.

If we're really going to discuss faith and murder and how they are connected, I think John Wayne Gacy is probably a sterling example. He's almost certainly a homosexual who denied his homosexuality. To him, as a staunch Catholic, homosexuality was evil. His MO was to lure young men into his home, forcibly rape them, then murder them for being homosexual. Many of his victims weren't homosexual at all. Its a pattern of self denial and hatred that culminated in the murders of over 33 young men. One has to wonder if this sort of thing would have even happened if Gacy were raised in a household (perhaps an atheist one) that didn't religiously teach him gay is evil.

That's an interesting thought, and could certainly have something to it. Would something else have eventually triggered that part of him? It's possible, but we can never really know that.

 

[Davian]

Uh huh...

I will say that I'm definitely looking forward to meeting my fellow CF atheists in hell. Bhsmte, Golden Boy, Paradoxum, Quatona, Selfinflicted, JGG, Davian, PsychoSarah, Eudiamonist...and many more!!!

Cool. See ya there!

 

[bhsmte]

Cool. See ya there!

Who is bringing the beer?

 

[keith99]

Uh huh...

I will say that I'm definitely looking forward to meeting my fellow CF atheists in hell. Bhsmte, Golden Boy, Paradoxum, Quatona, Selfinflicted, JGG, Davian, PsychoSarah, Eudiamonist...and many more!!!

I plan to end up in the area reserved for virtuous pagans. I expect to see the rest of you there.

But I have a question, will it be considered rude to laugh about the good Christians who end up in a circle of Hell far less attractive than ours?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Who is bringing the beer?

In hell it's just wine coolers and Milwaukee's Best.

 

[Davian]

...

Social responsibily? Prithee, what is that?

Social Contract Theory | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

 

[Ana the Ist]

That being said, he's never really shown behaviour of being deceptive. He obviously kept his crimes hidden, however the second he was discovered the Police say he was very cooperative, and told them everything they wanted to know.

He spoke of having those compulsions from a young age, but didn't know how to speak about them to anyone, so he kept quiet (which also makes sense in a way).

The man was obviously seriously mentally ill, but he doesn't have any history of being deceptive like a Ted Bundy



I completely agree that his religious views were probably irrelevant to his crimes. I think we can all agree it was mental illness and he'd have likely killed no matter what his religious views were.



That's an interesting thought, and could certainly have something to it. Would something else have eventually triggered that part of him? It's possible, but we can never really know that.

There was an incident where one of his victims, naked, drugged, and afraid managed to escape his apt and make it to the street. He found a couple cops and tried to explain that someone was trying to kill him. Dahmer caught up and convinced the officer that is was merely a "lover's quarrel" and even got the officer to help the victim back into his custody.

Dahmer was extremely deceptive. It's hard to imagine that anyone could be so calm as to convince a cop to give back his murder victim. Dahmer killed that guy shortly afterwards.

It's all perspective though.

 

[Chesterton]

I'm sorry, I should've rephrased that...

You can claim to know the basis of morality for a christian... but you don't. Remember when I gave you the example about shunning a homosexual son? You admitted that some christians do...some, like yourself, don't. It's a moral choice...and even though people may decide differently on that moral choice, they can both be christians. I made the point, you agreed to it....it all comes down to perspective and interpretation.

So again, you can claim to know the moral basis of a christian... but you can't know it. Sorry.

You've asked for a basis for morality for atheists and you've been given the same answer by pretty much every atheist here. Atheism doesn't have a moral philosophy attached to it. The fact that you either can't grasp this or just don't accept it doesn't make it any less true...that's the way it is.

If you want to know what the basis is for an atheist's morality.... you have to ask him. I know that's probably more work than you're willing to put it, it's a lot easier to judge people on baseless stereotypes, isn't it? As an atheist, I can only tell you either my personal basis for morality...or I can tell you how I think morality works for everyone (regardless of religious beliefs). What I can't tell you is the basis for morality for all atheists....there is no such thing, it doesn't exist. It's like asking "What's the moral basis for all sailors?" Sailing, like atheism, doesn't inform morality. That doesn't mean that sailors don't have a basis for morality individually...they just don't have one as a group.

But the very fact that you gave the example of shunning a homosexual son indicates that you know Christian morality pretty much as well as I do. We both know that would be wrong and un-Christian. We both know what Christian morality should be.

 

[Ana the Ist]

There are physical laws, maybe economic laws. Murphy's Law. None which compel me to act or not act morally.



Yes I think you mentioned that. If you want to present their views or invite them here as you said that's fine. We can assess them on a case-by-case basis.



You're right that it doesn't automatically mean that morality is objective. But it's the only way I see that morality could be objective.



That's what I mentioned to someone with respect to the Euthyphro dilemma. It's not a problem for the Christian because the teaching is so uniform and overwhelming that "the Lord is righteous" "His law is true" "His word is just". He is good, and holy, and He is righteousness. God's morality and his very being are one and the same thing. He doesn't consult any authority higher than Himself, and he also does not merely hold opinions about things.



You can deny anything. Some people deny that the earth is round. People exist who deny existence itself.

Nor does any "moral law" compel you to act morally. Still, you said there were no laws...I'm glad you see the error in that.

Lol why would I try to present someone else's view of morality? The point was that atheists can believe in objective morality. Is that still in dispute? The very fact that you now seem willing to invite them here to discuss it seems we're agreed they exist.

I don't see that your inability to think of another way that objective morals "could" exist makes any difference. The fact remains that simply showing god exists (which is a rather tall order in itself) doesn't mean objective morals come from him.

Lol it's not a problem for witches to believe in magic either....that doesn't mean magic exists. Magical thinking maybe, but not magic. Let's look at some of the things you said...

"because the teaching is so uniform and overwhelming that "the Lord is righteous" "His law is true" "His word is just". He is good, and holy, and He is righteousness..."

You may think this helps your case for objective morality, but you're really just digging a deeper hole. Can you really show his teaching is uniform? That's an almost endless argument in itself. Can you show his law is "true"? That he's just? That he's good, holy, and righteous? Instead of just proving morality comes from god...now you'd have to prove all these other things for the argument to remain cohesive.

"God's morality and his very being are one and the same thing. He doesn't consult any authority higher than Himself, and he also does not merely hold opinions about things."

So god isn't a sentient, living being? He's a set of moral rules? How does a set of moral rules create the universe? I'm gonna guess you didn't really mean any of that and you just got caught up in your little moment of preaching.

How would you know he doesn't consult a higher authority? Because he says so? How can you know there isn't a "god of gods" like there is a king of kings that you believe in? If morals aren't coming from god's personal subjective opinion...where would they come from?

Sure, people can deny anything...which contradicts your earlier statement about what atheists cannot deny, doesn't it? The difference between myself and someone who believes the earth flat, however, is that my beliefs are centered on evidence.

 

[Ana the Ist]

But the very fact that you gave the example of shunning a homosexual son indicates that you know Christian morality pretty much as well as I do. We both know that would be wrong and un-Christian. We both know what Christian morality should be.

I gave that example because I know that it's a point on which christians disagree about their "objective morality"....there's tons more if you'd like to go into them.

I also know that regardless of which position a christian takes on a moral issue, they can provide scripture to back it up....which effectively does away with your claims of uniformity.

Seriously, with all the different christian denominations out there disagreeing on all sorts of moral issues... how can you honestly expect anyone to believe that you all hold to some universal moral standard? Can't you see how silly that claim is?

It just proves my point...you don't know the moral basis for the christian any more than you do the atheist.

 

[Chesterton]

And that's simply incorrect.

I don't see how a creative mind behind the universe is even relevant to the topic?

Well where does "should" come from then?

Stalin and Mao didn't attempt to shut churches down in the name of Atheism, they attempted to shut them down in the name of Communism. Churches posed a threat to the authority of the state, so they did away with them.

Betcha didn't know Stalin spent 5 years at the Tiflis Theological Seminary with the intention of becoming an Orthodox priest before he got into politics.

It begs the question, why did churches pose a threat to the authority of the State? And yes I know about Stalin.

I'm not playing dumb. How is Dahmer's comments even relevant to atheism?

Let me help you out. You're conflating the theory of evolution with atheism. The majority of Christians also believe the theory of evolution to be correct. Therefore if he believed those things about evolution, he'd have believed them regardless of his religious viewpoint, evolution is not a "belief of atheism", it's science which is accepted by people from any religion.

Therefore what he says about evolution is completely irrelevant to atheism.
He spoke nothing of Atheism in the clip you provided.

You know what he's trying to say. If he had been a theistic evolutionist, why would he say it cheapens life? Why would God creating through evolutionary processes give him license to kill?

What does that even mean? I'm very appreciative of the police because they help keep order in society.

You said a person is not a moral person if they only act out of fear. That's not the sole reason why Christians try to be moral, but it seems to be the only reason you're giving for atheists to act moral.

Even there you're demonstrably wrong. One flavour is not logically as good as any other. Even you must have flavours of ice cream that you prefer over others, I find it highly unlikely that you view every single flavour as complete equals to each other.

Like moral systems, not all are equal. Some take more thought to discern than ice cream, however basic moral principles are not hard to figure out.

I know you're not saying that ice cream choices are made using logic, and I know you're not saying one flavor is objectively better than another, so what are you saying?

In fact I'd say the very basics of morality are hardwired into us. Any social species we find in nature has a basic code of morality.

What exactly about morality is hardwired? Obviously moral action is not wired into us, because there are criminals. Maybe just the feeling that we should be moral (conscience)?

The funny thing is that at first you're claiming it's not a dilemma for a christian, then your explanation is one of the two prongs of the euthyphro dilemma.

So you're saying morality stems from god? What he believes is moral is therefore moral?

See post #280.

On the contrary, it's you who haven't given it any thought, as you clearly don't even comprehend the position.

It's unavoidable. Maybe you just don't like the position.

Whether you get caught has absolutely no bearing on the morality of an action. I don't see how it would even be relevant to the discussion

Then what does have a bearing on the morality of an action?

 

[Chesterton]

Ok, so then you don't have probabilities?

I have the same probabilities the world's most famous atheist has for the non-existence of God.

 

[Chesterton]

Is your brain not made of atoms?

At this point in life, 50% atoms, 50% Jack Daniels.