Two Aspects of Salvation (Believers Need to Be Concerned With):

The Righterzpen · Nov 21, 2023

Buzzard3 said:
Do you keep his commandments?

Yes, I do; but that doesn't mean I'm without sin either.

But of course someone who believes they no longer sin can't ever be wrong so.... thus they are unteachable.

Now your "denominal setting" says "Catholic" - assuming that means you are Roman Catholic; or are you using the term "Catholic" as in meaning "universal"?

Buzzard3 · Nov 21, 2023

The Righterzpen said:
Am I correctly assuming here that you at least understand you still sin?

Your assumption is correct. We all sin.

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1John 1:8)

The Righterzpen · Nov 21, 2023

Buzzard3 said:
Your assumption is correct. We all sin.

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1John 1:8)

The form of the Greek verb in Galatians 5:21 is "present active participle". These are people who habitually commit these kinds of sins. They have no power to overcome them because they are still dead in their trespass and sin.

This verse does not mean that anyone who's ever committed murder, been drunk, "rioted", or been jealous of someone can never be saved. Envy, murder, drunkeness and reveling are not the unpardonable sins. But as someone grows in sanctification; evidence of salvation is that they are able to have victory over these types of things.

If they have no concern over the sin they commit; than they have a problem.

Buzzard3 · Nov 21, 2023

The Righterzpen said:
Yes, I do; but that doesn't mean I'm without sin either.

No one is perfect (least of all, me), but we must strive (albeit imperfectly) to keep his commandments - not only do we demonstrate our love for God by our obeidence, it has a bearing on our hope of salvation:

"Strive for ... the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." (Heb 12:14)

The Righterzpen said:
Now your "denominal setting" says "Catholic" - assuming that means you are Roman Catholic

I am a Roman Catholic. (Not all Catholics are Roman Catholics. Romans Catholics are but a subset of the Catholic Church, which is led by the Pope. A Pope doesn't need to be a Roman Catholic.)

The Righterzpen · Nov 21, 2023

Buzzard3 said:
Romans Catholics are but a subset of the Catholic Church, which is led by the Pope. A Pope doesn't need to be a Roman Catholic.)

Interesting, I didn't know that. Assuming the other Catholic denominations are not well known? I've only ever heard Roman Catholic use the term "Catholic" as part of a denominational description.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 21, 2023

The Righterzpen said:
Do you want a serious answer to this; or are you just looking to argue your beliefs?

Are you another one who believes you have no sin?

Are you another one of those who believes they can buy into the serpent’s lie that they can break God’s command and not die?

The Righterzpen · Nov 21, 2023

Buzzard3 said:
No one is perfect (least of all, me), but we must strive (albeit imperfectly) to keep his commandments - not only do we demonstrate our love for God by our obeidence, it has a bearing on our hope of salvation:

"Strive for ... the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." (Heb 12:14)

Have you ever heard someone refer to the Mosaic law as different than the "law of Christ" or "law of love"? Have you ever heard that explanation? The law of Christ is still morally rooted; (of course God is a moral) but the purpose of the Mosaic law as opposed to those born of the Spirit of God is a different paradigm.

The Righterzpen · Nov 21, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Are you another one of those who believes they can buy into the serpent’s lie that they can break God’s command and not die?

Any answer I give you, in your mind is going to be wrong because you have no sin.

So..... what am I suppose to tell you; what you want to hear? (You want to hear that you're right. That's all you've ever wanted to hear; that's why you keep arguing.)

Buzzard3 · Nov 21, 2023

The Righterzpen said:
Interesting, I didn't know that. Assuming the other Catholic denominations are not well known? I've only ever heard Roman Catholic use the term "Catholic" as part of a denominational description.

There are actually 24 different forms (Rites) of Catholic churches, which are all in communion with, and under the authority of, the Pope.
The largest Rite by far is the Latin (Roman) Rite, which is why most Popes have been Roman Catholics. Roman Catholics form the "western" part of the Catholic Church - there are many "eastern" Catholic churches.

In Australia, there is large Maronite Catholic community, formed by Catholic migrants from Lebanon. They have their own churches and they have their own Maronite traditions and liturgy, but their dogmas (essential beliefs and practices) are the same as those of Roman Catholics and all other Catholics.

The Righterzpen · Nov 21, 2023

Buzzard3 said:
There are actually 24 different forms (Rites) of Catholic churches, which are all in communion with, and under the authority of, the Pope.
The largest Rite by far is the Latin (Roman) Rite, which is why most Popes have been Roman Catholics. Roman Catholics form the "western" part of the Catholic Church - there are many "eastern" Catholic churches.

In Australia, there is large Maronite Catholic community, formed by Catholic migrants from Lebanon. They have their own churches and they have their own Maronite traditions and liturgy, but their dogmas (essential beliefs and practices) are the same as those of Roman Catholics and all other Catholics.

Interesting, I never knew this.

So the different "Catholics" are called different rites. I always assumed all geographically eastern churches were "Eastern Orthodox" of some form or another. (But I also know there's more than one "Eastern Orthodox". (Coptic (Egyptian), Greek Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox). Then there's regional groups like the Ethiopian church (not sure what their official name is; and there's probably more than one "denomination" in Ethiopia).

Learn something new every day.

Do the different rites have their own Bible translations too? (Thus why the Latin (Roman) has the Latin Vulgate.) Although most Roman Catholics I know use regional language translations and not necessarily the Latin.

The Righterzpen · Nov 21, 2023

Buzzard3 said:
There are actually 24 different forms (Rites) of Catholic churches, which are all in communion with, and under the authority of, the Pope.

OK, just looked this up: Some of these I've heard of. Just never realized they were under the umbrella of "Catholic Church".
Interesting. - I learned something today!

The Rites of the Catholic Church

It may surprise most people to know that there are many different rites within the Catholic Church. Before discussing these rites it is important to note that different sources disagree on exactly what constitutes a rite and exactly how many there are.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

Bible Highlighter · Nov 21, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
There is no Scripture verse that even says, ”Let go and let God!”

The Righterzpen said:
Romans 8:28

Romans 8:28 says,

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

First, Romans 8:28 does not say, “Let go, and let God!” and neither does it say so by the use of other words. It’s not even implied.
Second, in Romans 8:28, in order for all things to work together for good for you according to this verse, you have to love God. Love is not how you define it but it as Scripture says.

How do we love God according to Scripture?

“If ye love me, keep my commandments.”

(John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments,

ye shall abide in my love; even as

I have kept my Father's commandments,

and abide in his love.”

(John 15:10).

So you have to keep His commandments to show that you truly love God.

Romans 8:28 says, we are called according to His purpose. Are you called according to God’s purpose like helping the poor, and preaching the gospel, and living holy as He says in His Word?
We should at least be striving to do these things as a part of our Sanctification. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen you to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit.

Your purpose seems contrary to God’s purposes by our conversations in that you defend sin. God cannot defend sin like you because God is holy and just. While God can turn a sinful situation around for a greater good, God cannot condone sin or agree with your sin.

This is why your sin and still be saved belief is a sham.
God is not working all things for your good if you believe you can sin and be saved.
The conditions of Romans 8:28 is to “love God.”
Loving God according to Scripture is keeping His commandments (John 14:15) (John 15:10).

But I am afraid that many will not see reason until the day of Judgment. Only then will many see the truth that they cannot currently see in the Scriptures. The horror many believers will face for having twisted God’s Word to their defense of their sin. But at the Judgment, it will be too late to change one’s belief and ways. Many who claimed to be of His Kingdom will be cast into the furnace of fire. So I tell you to repent of your wrong beliefs and just believe the Bible and not men or your own thoughts while you still have breath. You only have one life to get it right. Make sure you are on the correct and narrow path. Your soul is too important to play games with.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 21, 2023

The Righterzpen said:
Am I correctly assuming here that you at least understand you still sin? If you understand that believes will never been sinless this side of the grave; then we are on the same page here.

@Bible Highlighter believes he no longer sins. Or at least that is as much as I can make out of his just quoting Scripture and not actually directly answering the question.

Romans 14:4
“Who art thou that judgest another man's servant?
to his own master he standeth or falleth.
Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.”

Matthew 26:41
”Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

Galatians 5:24
”And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”

Now, here is another verse you do not believe.

Hebrews 12:14
“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:”

See, you cannot follow holiness because you believe you can sin and still be saved.
Following after peace with all men is a holy action and it also is a part of whether or not you will see the Lord or not.
Meaning, if you are not following after holiness (holy living), you will not be saved.
But seeing you believe you can sin and still be saved you are automatically disqualified before you even get out of the starting gate.
You need to truly repent of your sin. This means to seek forgiveness with your sin with the Lord Jesus with the intention that you will not sin again. But you already threw in the towel, and so any appeal of saying your sorry about your sin does not mean anything to God unless you are willing to put away those sins.

For example: If Bob cheated on his wife, and all he said was that he was sorry to her, and yet Bob and his wife both knew that he is just going to go out and cheat on her again, it would mean Bob had not repented or truly felt sorry about what he did. Bob’s words of saying, “I am sorry for cheating on you” would be false. Bob is not really sorry for cheating on his wife if he continues to keep doing so. Only if Bob stopped his unfaithful actions would it be proof that his words would match his actions. Just saying one is sorry to God and they don’t change does not mean they are really sorry. They are only playing lip service and fooling themselves.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 21, 2023

The Righterzpen said:
Any answer I give you, in your mind is going to be wrong because you have no sin.

Believers have sinned in their past life and they can stumble.
But believers who live out their faith are to also crucify the affections and lusts according to Galatians 5:24.
This is yet another verse you do not believe or understand or accept. Your lens of looking at Scripture is with the mindset and view that you can sin and still be saved. See, you are not reading the Bible to get any meaning from it on this topic. You have already chosen what you believe and you will make the Bible to fit that belief. This is wrong.

The Righterzpen said:
So..... what am I suppose to tell you; what you want to hear?

Again, you believe you are also right, and it is the truth and you cannot be wrong.
I have been corrected by the Bible and other Christians several times. But will you allow Scripture to correct your false beliefs?
So far, from our conversation, this is just not the case.

The Righterzpen said:
(You want to hear that you're right.

It has nothing to do with me. It has everything to do with what the Bible says.
If you choose the path of destruction, I will grieve you chose the wrong path.
I care for your soul. I get no druggie rush off of a person saying to me, “Your right.”
That is not my motivation. My motivation is to get people to heed the Scriptures, and glorify Jesus Christ.
I am nothing and Christ is everything.

The Righterzpen said:
That's all you've ever wanted to hear; that's why you keep arguing.)

I am pleading for your soul by the Word of God, and it is not a game for egos here.
That is how the world thinks but it is not how the man of God (or woman of God) thinks.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 21, 2023

The Righterzpen said:
The form of the Greek verb in Galatians 5:21 is "present active participle". These are people who habitually commit these kinds of sins. They have no power to overcome them because they are still dead in their trespass and sin.

This verse does not mean that anyone who's ever committed murder, been drunk, "rioted", or been jealous of someone can never be saved. Envy, murder, drunkeness and reveling are not the unpardonable sins. But as someone grows in sanctification; evidence of salvation is that they are able to have victory over these types of things.

If they have no concern over the sin they commit; than they have a problem.

Nowhere does the Bible teach that it is okay to sin and still be saved as long as the believer has a concern over their sin. The only true test of whether one is saved is if they are not breaking God’s commands or sinning. But you defend the idea that you can sin and still be saved and there is no real concern there at all by your saying that. You believe you must sin again. Your goal is to convince others that they are in sin. You agree with Piper in what he says in that he still does his sin and yet he does not have them anymore. So your belief is a contradiction and it is pure evil.

You are basically creating a scale of morality that is fictional. In Galatians 5:19-21, it sounds like you would say to yourself, “Well, I am not out robbing banks and murdering people.” “So I am okay.” That sounds like your kind of thinking on Galatians 5:19-21. But remember, Jesus warned against just committing singular sins and how they can destroy us. Jesus says if you do not forgive, the Father will not forgive you (Matthew 6:15). Think. These words by our Lord Jesus in Matthew 6:15 does not sound like Jesus agrees with your belief that you can sin and still be saved.

This is why I believe you don’t read your Bible or you don’t read it with the intent to let it speak to you on this topic. You have already decided what to believe on this matter and you now reinterpret the Bible when you read it.

I say this because you do not address any of the verses or points I bring up that refutes your false belief.

Buzzard3 · Nov 21, 2023

The Righterzpen said:
So the different "Catholics" are called different rites.

Yes, there are 24 different Rites within the Catholic Church ... the same lolly presented in different wrappers, if you like.

The Righterzpen said:
I always assumed all geographically eastern churches were "Eastern Orthodox" of some form or another. (But I also know there's more than one "Eastern Orthodox". (Coptic (Egyptian), Greek Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox). Then there's regional groups like the Ethiopian church (not sure what their official name is; and there's probably more than one "denomination" in Ethiopia).

The Orthodox churches share essentially the same dogmas with Catholic churches (there are a few minor differences), but unlike Catholics, the Orthodox don't accept the Pope as their head. The Catholic Church considers the Orthodox to be "separated brethren", but accepts Orthodox clergy as truly apostolic and their sacraments as authentic.

The Righterzpen said:
Do the different rites have their own Bible translations too? (Thus why the Latin (Roman) has the Latin Vulgate.) Although most Roman Catholics I know use regional language translations and not necessarily the Latin.

I don't know what Bibles the various Rites use, but their Bibles would all have the approval of the respective Bishop

The Righterzpen · Nov 21, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, you believe you are also right, and it is the truth and you cannot be wrong.
I have been corrected by the Bible and other Christians several times. But will you allow Scripture to correct your false beliefs?
So far, from our conversation, this is just not the case.

Will you answer strait out.

Do you believe you no longer sin? (That is a "yes" or "no" question.) Why will you not answer that with a yes or no?

Since you claim to be instructed by the Bible. Matthew 5:37

Why be so evasive?

Bible Highlighter · Nov 21, 2023

The Righterzpen said:
Will you answer strait out.

Do you believe you no longer sin? (That is a "yes" or "no" question.) Why will you not answer that with a yes or no?

Since you claim to be instructed by the Bible. Matthew 5:37

Why be so evasive?

First, there are many verses you did not address that refutes your false beliefs you stated in this thread. So the door swings both ways.
What would be your word for word commentary on Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Galatians 6:8-9, Romans 8:13, and 1 Timothy 5:8? You can pick just two if you like. But if there roles were reversed, I would explain them all easily because I believe what they say at face value, whereas you cannot believe these verses plainly. Please keep in mind that if you believed these verses at face value, then you would no longer keep asking me your question.

But let the reader take note that you did not address the many many verses I brought forth.
Why are you being so evasive on explaining the verses I brought forth?
So will you answer these verses straight out?
Please go back to all my previous posts to you that include Scriptures verses that I brought up that refutes your false beliefs.

Second, if you actually read and understood the verses I posted and the points I made in light of your question, you would not keep asking. Even Jesus did not speak back to everyone that had spoken to Him.

The Righterzpen · Nov 21, 2023

Buzzard3 said:
The Orthodox churches share essentially the same dogmas with Catholic churches (there are a few minor differences), but unlike Catholics, the Orthodox don't accept the Pope as their head. The Catholic Church considers the Orthodox to be "separated brethren", but accepts Orthodox clergy as truly apostolic and their sacraments as authentic.

I know Eastern Orthodox have more apocrypha books than Roman Catholics. Now is this the delineating factor between what's considered Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Rites of the Catholic church? Eastern Orthodox clergy can get married too. Are there other Catholic Rites where their clergy can get married?

There is a musician; John Michael Talbot (I'm assuming you know who he is. He's pretty well known.) He had gotten married. Did he do this because he joined a Rite other than Roman Catholic. I know he lives in a commune (don't think they call it a "monastery" because there are single men, single women and married couples with families who live in this facility.

The Righterzpen · Nov 21, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Second, if you actually read and understood the verses I posted and the points I made in light of your question, you would not keep asking.

So I am correct that you believe you do not sin any longer; therefore anything I say; you would discount anyways because in your own eyes you have no sin; so you can't be wrong because you believe you don't sin.

I can't give you an answer to the questions you pose to me about Scripture that you would be satisfied with. So.... why are we having this conversation?

Apparently you're not wrong then? Correct?

And I have to be sinless to agree with you. Correct?

Two Aspects of Salvation (Believers Need to Be Concerned With):

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

Well-Known Member

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

Well-Known Member

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

Well-Known Member

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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