Twisted Salvation Message.

[The Lady Kate]

Your right. Ninety percent of people are probably going to hell.

Anyone who thinks about playing the odds might not see much point in seeking salvation... it would seem too much like a losing proposition.

 

[jad123]

What about the thief on the cross?

What about the thief? Had Jesus died on the cross yet? No. Had Jesus risen from the dead yet? No. The thief did while the OT law was still in effect.

 

[Anglian]

What about the thief? Had Jesus died on the cross yet? No. Had Jesus risen from the dead yet? No. The thief did while the OT law was still in effect.

Dear Jad,

My Church teaches us this about the penitent thief.

The first thing to note is that he believed in the Lord in the hardest of circumstances. A crucified thief himself on a cross next to another crucified man, he nonetheless confessed Him Lord; when others mocked and scoffed, this humble man believed. Our Lord had told His followers that many would 'stumble' that night (Mark 14:27); the thief believed.

Secondly, he made a complete confession that the Lord was the Christ and could admit him into His kingdom. He had faith and he had hope and he had love. He declared his faith in public at a time when even St. Peter would not.

Thirdly, the thief confessed his sinfulness (Luke 23: 39-41) and acknowledged the justice of the punishment meted out to him. How many of us do likewise?

Fourthly, he defended the Lord, telling all who listened that He had done no wrong.

It was, we are told, for these reasons that he received the Grace of Christ Jesus and heard the words we all long to hear: 'Today you will be with me in Paradise.' (Luke 23:43).

In peace,

Anglian

 

[ghs1994]

I'm sorry but so many churches on a mass scale are spreading bold face lies about salvation. Maybe you even believe this. They basically tell you that all you have to do is confess your sins once in your life and you will be saved. People sometimes ask ."How do I know if I am saved?" then someone will answer "Was there ever a time in your life when you asked Jesus into your heart?" the person will say "well yes" and then they will be persuaded that they are saved because on this one occasion they had asked Jesus into thier heart and repented. In order to be saved you have to have faith in Jesus to be your savior and to be your teacher , not for a day but every day of your life. You must repent all your sins you possibly can. Every day when you wake up you must make a true decision to follow God and do what is right. You must read the word of God everyday and pray everyday. You must love god with all your heart all your mind and all your strength and all your soul , not only with your lips. You must love God in secret , not only in public. You must honestly love God. God sees through fakery.I'm not perfect and I am struggeling very badly but that is what we are supposed to be doing. Following God and repenting must be a daily event and we must always be ready for the Lord. This is how you recieve Salvation. Not by saying a prayer one time and then doing evil for the rest of your life! It does not work that way!We must strive to be like him and believe in what he has done for us. I am writing this because I believe most Christians today are actually on thier way to hell and I find it disturbing and disgusting and it shouldn't be this way.
People need to learn the truth because nowhere in the bible does it say that all you have to do is give your heart to God once and be saved for the rest of your life even when you live it apart from God.

Growing in our knowledge and love of Jesus Christ is a process. People seeing Jesus Christ in our life takes time. But the inner change is immediate and those who have been changed will cultivate that relationship because the change was genuinely of God and not an empty profession. We will know them by their fruit.

All of the activities you wrote about all are true of a disciple of Jesus; they must be done in order to cultivate that relationship with Him. But those things do not save us, Jesus does.

 

[HuntingMan]

deleted.
I definitely misunderstood the intent of the poster but didnt have enough time to get back to this before someone had a chance to jump on it

 

[HuntingMan]

To state that if someone doesn't do a bible study that he/she isn't a Christian is really false.

That I agree with for the most part.
Some people that I know simply are not mentally capable of sitting down and doing their own studies. There is nothing wrong with being taught by another man who can teach and is qualified to do so.

Putting the law onto people is a burden and to state that if you don't do such and such and such then you're not a Christian is a burden.

agreed to some extent.
There are FAR too many teachings in the NT about what to do and NOT to do to believe that we have no obligations tho.

But, on the other hand, we can fall from faith and leave Him.Which is what I sort of see a hint of in the postings. If we consciously sin, then it shows we're turning from him and back to self. Rejection of Christ is what damns us. We can fall from faith by turning from Him and back to our self and going back to doing worldly things.

oh, I see
I really mistook your other post as tainted with OSAS a bit.
I agree with this entirely. We can leave Him.

But as for any requirement to stay in the faith, well, again, if we connect something to "faith", we know that it comes from God, for faith is gift talk. We can show our thanksgiving and appreciation to God by doing all the things listed in the original posting, but by stating that you aren't a Christian if you aren't doing such and such and such, really does make a works type of Christianity, and we have to be very careful that we stay away from wording such as that.

What if a man gets saved and a two years later is still living in the bars and having sex with a different woman every night ?
Scripture shows that Christianity does have requirements for our lives.
The Corinthians didnt just fall into line, they had to be instructed by Paul to stop their divisions and sexual sins.

 

[HuntingMan]

Hm..It seems you are the one attempting to draw us OSAS believers into debate. Very tempting indeed..

After reading that posters next post, I see that a few key points that OSASers often use that seemed to be in that post maybe were misunderstood.

I dont see how your post helped in any way tho, MS ?
You could have simply said that you didnt think she was talking about OSAS doctrine.

 

[LilLamb219]

oh, I see
I really mistook your other post as tainted with OSAS a bit.
I agree with this entirely. We can leave Him.



What if a man gets saved and a two years later is still living in the bars and having sex with a different woman every night ?
Scripture shows that Christianity does have requirements for our lives.
The Corinthians didnt just fall into line, they had to be instructed by Paul to stop their divisions and sexual sins.

No, I do not believe in OSAS. Lutherans believe a person can fall from faith.

The person who is living in bars and having sex with a different woman every night really is really struggling with some heavy sin. But, although he is weak in faith, we can't state whether or not he gave up his faith totally and rejects Christ as His Savior though. He might be living in despair for his actions and doesn't see a way out. OR he doesn't want to believe his actions are sinful, and in that instance heavy law needs to be laid upon him to accuse him of his sin and bring him to contrition.

The point is, who are we to separate the sheep from the goats? We can hear a person's confession of faith and have an indication of whether he or she is a Christian or not. But to always look at someone's actions is misleading because there are hypocrites who don't have faith but can walk a better walk (falsely) than some faithful Christians I know. We don't know what lies in a man's heart, but thank God, our triune God is there to rescue us and is the sole one to judge

 

[HuntingMan]

No, I do not believe in OSAS. Lutherans believe a person can fall from faith.

That was my bad
what confused me was that it seemed you were saying something along the lines of once we're born again there are no requirements on us...nothing we do or dont do makes any difference.
That is a very big arguing point for osasers and so I just assumed you were because other than Calvinists Ive never seen that sort of thing presented before.
My mistake entirely...should have kept reading.

The person who is living in bars and having sex with a different woman every night really is really struggling with some heavy sin. But, although he is weak in faith, we can't state whether or not he gave up his faith totally and rejects Christ as His Savior though.

I see where you're at.
This I can agree with to some extent.
The evidence backing what your saying is Pauls letters to the Corinthians.
Even tho they were clearly having some issue with sin, Paul still addresses them as brothers, and his trying to get them to shape up shows me that he probably did believe that they were born again.

The one thing Id like to point out tho, is Pauls word to that group of people

Scrutinize yourselves as to whether you are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you, unless indeed you are reprobates?
(2Co 13:5 EMTV)
​

Now, I dont believe that Paul is telling that they ARE reprobates, but this verse seems to show that there may be some possibility of it.
His telling them to examine themselves is key in my mind. What exactly are they looking for?
If its only Gods doing that keeps them from being reprobates, how can they examine that ? Wouldnt their own behavior also come into play ?

Personally I believe that after so long a time that if a man doesnt start showing some fruits that he probably never really meant that prayer. As the man I mentioned before.

He might be living in despair for his actions and doesn't see a way out.

This I can see to a great extent.
I'll concede the point that we're not all drones. We each have our own unique scenarios to live out in this life.
I cannot say that some people will not struggle with something their entire lives yet still be born again. (lets say someone who believes that smoking IS wrong, but can never seem to entirely break the habit...for them it is sin regardless since they believe it is...yet they struggle with it).
In general tho, I still feel that there ought to be fruits being presented in some fashion or another after some time anyway.

OR he doesn't want to believe his actions are sinful, and in that instance heavy law needs to be laid upon him to accuse him of his sin and bring him to contrition.

Again, a good point.
People tell me that remarriage is a sin and will send me to hell.
Personally my studies tell me differently.
But lets say they were correct for this example.
If I read scripture and am absolutely convinced that remarriage isnt sin because of things like Christs exception, and say Ive studied it out very hard just to make sure.....if Im doing my best otherwise, yet confused somehow on this one point, but believe what I do because of what Gods word seems to say, I dont think there would be condemnation over the confusion.

(I have to add this for the lurkers. LB/SE/56..NO I am not saying that Im confused. I dont want to see this post being pulled out of context anywhere)

I believe that 1 cor 3 sort of covers this idea that sometimes men can build on the wrong foundation (have their facts a bit off) and still be saved, even if its only as one passing thru the fire.

I guess my points are that there ARE obligations to follow instruction on our part.
Obviously if we misunderstand those instructions (and God knows if that is the actual case) then seemingly God will be a bit more tolerant if we simply have not understood.

The point is, who are we to separate the sheep from the goats? We can hear a person's confession of faith and have an indication of whether he or she is a Christian or not. But to always look at someone's actions is misleading because there are hypocrites who don't have faith but can walk a better walk (falsely) than some faithful Christians I know. We don't know what lies in a man's heart, but thank God, our triune God is there to rescue us and is the sole one to judge

Good point.
We are no one to do so.

I do think, however, based on passages such as 1 Cor 5, that if we see someone named a brother in open, unrepented sin that we are to expel him after a time until he repents.
That chapter does show that we are to take action in some cases.

 

[HuntingMan]

I could've, but didn't HM. I cannot read your mind. I only pointed out the obvious. I like to do that.

I tried to get back and delete that post as fast as I could.
You're a bit quicker on the draw than I am

 

[LilLamb219]

I do think, however, based on passages such as 1 Cor 5, that if we see someone named a brother in open, unrepented sin that we are to expel him after a time until he repents.

Expel? Do you mean a type of excommunication?

I do see the need to give the Law to those who are smug in their sins and refuse to repent...and this is out of love for their spiritual well being.

Paul in the epistles did a wonderful job of showing us the proper usage for Law/Gospel. The Law is a curb, guide and mirror and shows us what we are to do and not do, but we cannot fulfill it perfectly and the Law always accuses us, hopefully to bring us to contrition. The Gospel, on the other hand is given to those in despair and to bring them to faith in Christ Jesus so they have the comfort of salvation. The Gospel, not the Law, grows and strengthens our faith. The Law deals with us and what we do and should not do, the Gospel deals with what our triune God did and does for us.

My point in all that, is that, yes, there are a lot of "Christians" out there who are doing things that are ungodly. If we have a relationship where we can go up to them and call them out on their sin, that is a loving thing to do to help benefit them spiritually. God uses us to give them the Law so that they can be brought to contrition for repentance but we need to remember to give them the Gospel too, for repentance is made up of both contrition and faith and only the Gospel can give us faith

 

[HuntingMan]

Lillamb219

Something else that comes to mind that I think backs your views pretty well, is that 1 corinthians man who had his fathers wife.

We really dont know how long the man was with her, but we do know that Paul had him removed from the church.
But apparently it wasnt only to get the leaven out, but was also so that this man would repent, apparently.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
​

I dont want to come off as saying that WE judge the eternal soul of a person. That isnt what I mean at all.
What I believe is that when we take action in these cases, when we use 'sharp rebuke' even at times, it isnt to judge the eternal destiny of these people doing these things, but is instead to hopefully shock them back to life.

Even here in this verse the sharp rebuke is meant to encourage the person to sound faith...not to judge their eternal souls.

Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
​

My posts may be coming off as saying something that I dont necessarily mean to say.
Man NEVER has the authority to judge the final destiny of another man, in my opinion.
If we make judgments it should ONLY be to help to encourage a return to godliness.

 

[Miracle Storm]

I tried to get back and delete that post as fast as I could.
You're a bit quicker on the draw than I am

It's all good, once I seen you deleted your post I got rid of mine that quoted it.

 

[HuntingMan]

Expel? Do you mean a type of excommunication?

I do see the need to give the Law to those who are smug in their sins and refuse to repent...and this is out of love for their spiritual well being.

Not excommunication in any permanent sense, no.
Just removal from the assembly until repentance is shown.
It is believed that the man in 1 Cor 5 did end up repenting and that Paul told them to allow him to return.

Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
(2Co 2:6-8 KJV)
​

This sort of thing is used hopefully to bring someone to repentance.
If they refuse to ever repent, were they ever in the faith ? Did they apostate ?

 

[LilLamb219]

Not excommunication in any permanent sense, no.
Just removal from the assembly until repentance is shown.
It is believed that the man in 1 Cor 5 did end up repenting and that Paul told them to allow him to return.

Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
(2Co 2:6-8 KJV)
​

This sort of thing is used hopefully to bring someone to repentance.
If they refuse to ever repent, were they ever in the faith ? Did they apostate ?

If they refuse to repent, it could still be a matter of not really agreeing that the sin is truly a sin. Could that person still be in the faith, OF COURSE. But, is that person weak and spiritually on the verge of falling? Could be. Until a person truly states that he rejects Christ and the forgiveness won at the cross, who are we to go around stating that the person was never saved? It's not up to us to make such a claim. That's God's work

 

[HuntingMan]

If they refuse to repent, it could still be a matter of not really agreeing that the sin is truly a sin. Could that person still be in the faith, OF COURSE. But, is that person weak and spiritually on the verge of falling? Could be. Until a person truly states that he rejects Christ and the forgiveness won at the cross, who are we to go around stating that the person was never saved? It's not up to us to make such a claim. That's God's work

could be....again, I agree its not for us to say what a persons eternal destiny is.
I believe, tho, that we are required to follow Paul instructions based on the public actions of one claiming to be a believer who is in such a sin.

 

[LilLamb219]

could be....again, I agree its not for us to say what a persons eternal destiny is.
I believe, tho, that we are required to follow Paul instructions based on the public actions of one claiming to be a believer who is in such a sin.

I do agree that there should be consequences for a believer who refuses to repent of his sin in the local congregations. At my church, if it is known that a person refuses to repent, that person is discouraged from partaking in Holy Communion and after the pastor has counseled the member and he/she still refuses, excommunication (it is not final, for a person can return after repenting) is possible.

 

[HuntingMan]

I do agree that there should be consequences for a believer who refuses to repent of his sin in the local congregations. At my church, if it is known that a person refuses to repent, that person is discouraged from partaking in Holy Communion and after the pastor has counseled the member and he/she still refuses, excommunication (it is not final, for a person can return after repenting) is possible.

Thats actually amazing that your church does something . NONE of ANY of the churches Ive ever been in would ever even mention it and not one that Ive been to would have even went to the person in private. Ive never seen anyone chastised for anything beyond bringing an NASB into a KJVonly church that I once visited (it was me, obviously )
I even was at one church, I wont mention any denominations as that will surely cause a problem, but in this church one guy had just come to the Lord(approx one year at that point, give or take), but he was a terrible drunk.

Instead of working with the guy to bring him around, they complete ignored the fact that he was even coming into the assembly intoxicated on a regular basis and what they did was to tell him that God accepted him just the way he was...not one word of correction...nothing to even try to help him get off the booze.

It wouldnt have surprised me if this was some New Age group, but it was a long established denomination that should have known better. Of course, it wasnt the fault of the denomination itself, but of the particular group there at that individual church that was ignoring the issue.

I had a talk with the guy at one point after a service and tried to talk to him about our responsibility as believers to not be like the world and to start coming out of that lifestyle.
What bothered me wasnt that he didnt understand, but the entire problem was that NOone in the church that knew better was helping him and at least working with him.
He told me flat out that they had informed him that God accepted him as he was and left it at that. No suggestions to get into AA or anything.
They literally left this man on his present course, which was destroying his life. Alcohol had already ruined his previous marriage from my understanding.

It doesnt sadden me that churches dont play judge.
It saddens me that Paul meant his correction to help bring believers to the truth and to obedience to Gods will for their own growth so that they can be closer to Him...yet churches rob some of their own flock of this by ignoring the open sin instead of actually taking action where it is necessary so that someone does feel remorse for what their doing and understands that if the whole church has come against what one is doing, then theres a good chance that something is wrong with it.

 

[LilLamb219]

This is why it is crucial for a Law/Gospel distinction to be learned!! Too many denoms don't know the difference properly, so they confuse the sheep and are in impediment to their spiritual growth