Twelve "In" or "Out"?

eph3Nine · Nov 23, 2005

Markea said:
Perhaps the LORD was only joking when He said...

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Who knows.. maybe He changed His mind and gave them another chance..? ?

Although I tend to doubt it.. and again.. they ASKED Him of He was going to restore the kingdom to Israel and He told them that it's not for them to know that time.. but that they will receive power and be witnesses of ME.. the LORD JESUS CHRIST.. starting in Jerusalem.. then Judaea, Samaria..and to the uttermost part of the earth...

This is exactly what happened.. the GOSPEL went to the JEW first.. then it spread to entire planet.. JEWS and GENTILES being added to the body by the SPIRIT..

You are stuck here.

The gospel of times Past was to go to the JEW first, then thru believing Israel, all nations would be blessed. The nation refused to BELIEVE.

So, instead of God leaving the world with NO vehicle by which to come to Him, HE revealed He had a SECRET plan NOT revealed in Israels program. One that would NOT limit salvation, nor would it depend on Israels OBEDIENCE. He had this plan in mind from BEFORE The foundations of the world.

NOW the gospel isnt to the Jew first...cuz its a NEW set of information. What WAS hid in God is now hidden no longer, but REVEALED! TO WHOM? To Paul, for Us the Body of Christ.

Now its NOT to the Jew First...but to ALL men, without the special status of Israel. The world today is saved thru the FALL of Israel.

If you studied the way God instructs us to in 2 Tim 2:15, you would find those scriptures and this would all fit together very easily. Instead, you confuse the gospels, misrepresent Gods message to us today, and make of none effect the Cross of Christ by your perverting the gospel for today.

You should be so proud!

Markea · Nov 23, 2005

No kidding.. IT WAS to the Jew first.. exactly as the LORD established it.. STARTING IN JERUSALEM.. then Judaea, then Samaria.. and ultimately to the uttermost part of the earth..

It's not that complicated.. and as pertaining to the things kept secret.. the LORD spoke these things to His Apostles.. and when He was finished.. He asked them if they understood.. and they said yes.. it was the LORD JESUS CHRIST who FIRST spoke of things kept secret from the foundation of the world.. not Paul..

But our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ..

JerryShugart · Nov 23, 2005

Markea said:
Interesting thoughts... although I'd add that I believe that the scriptures make it clear that it's the spiritual baptism that places us into CHRIST.. which began at Pentecost.. ie..

The believers were being quickened by the Holy Spirit before Pentecost,as witnessed by the words of the Lord Jesus at John 6:63.

What you are referring to is an entirely different thing.

John the Baptist said,"He who cometh after me is mightier than I,whose shoes I am not worthy to bear.He shall baptize you with holy spirit,and with fire"(Mt.311)."

Here the Greek words "pneuma hagion",which are translated "holy spirit",are not preceded by the definite article (the).With the article the reference is to the third Person of the Godhead,the Holy Spirit.But without the definite article it "is never used of the Giver (the Holy Spirit),but only and always of His gift"("The Companion Bible",Appendix 101,Section 14).

So when Peter speaks of receiving the "gift of the Holy Spirit" he is speaking about a "gift" that is bestowed by the Holy Spirit: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent,and be baptized,every one of you,in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"(Acts2:38).

The "gift" of which is spoken of here can be determined by comparing Luke 24:49 with Acts1:4,5,8:

"And,behold,I send the promise of My Father upon you,but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem,until ye be endued with power from on high"(Lk.24:49).

"commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem,but wait for the promise of the Father,which,ye have heard from Me.For John truly baptized with water,but ye shall be baptized with holy spirit not many days from nowreceive power after the Holy Spirit is come upon you"(Acts1:4,5,8).

The promise of the Father is called "pneuma hagion" (holy spirit) in the latter passage and "power from on high" in the former.This "power from on high" included whatever "gifts" the Holy Spirit bestowed on the believers on the day of Pentecost.In the following verse we can see that the "gift" is distinguished from the Giver: "they were all filled with holy spirit,and began to speak with other tongues,as the Spirit gave them utterance"(Acts2:4).

The sign gifts were given for power in order to "confirm" the "gospel of the kingdom": "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following"(Mk.16:20).

Today we do not confirm the gospel of grace with signs.

In His grace,--Jerry

Markea · Nov 23, 2005

So you're saying that people were being added to His body, the church.. before His resurrection and the promise of the Spirit being sent..?

JerryShugart · Nov 23, 2005

Markea said:
So you're saying that people were being added to His body, the church.. before His resurrection and the promise of the Spirit being sent..?

No,as I said before,the Church which is His Body started at the time He ascended into heaven.That is after His resurrection.

The promise in regard to the Holy Spirit being sent was made before the Cross and was not in reference to the gift given by the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

In His grace,--Jerry

Markea · Nov 23, 2005

I think that I understand what you're getting at.. all believers are placed into Christ by the Spirit as Paul tells us.. although you believe that this was available prior to Pentecost and therefore the body of Christ was already being formed.. apart from the Apostles receiving power from on high..

Yes, no, maybe..?

JerryShugart · Nov 23, 2005

Markea said:
I think that I understand what you're getting at.. all believers are placed into Christ by the Spirit as Paul tells us.. although you believe that this was available prior to Pentecost and therefore the body of Christ was already being formed.. apart from the Apostles receiving power from on high..

Yes, no, maybe..?

Yes,that is correct.

CompleteinChrist · Nov 23, 2005

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

From this passage we know that some in Christ in this future dispensation will be of Heaven and some will be of the Earth.In Matt 19:27-28 Christ promised the Twelve earthly thrones at the time when He (Christ ) would sit in his throne of glory.The twelve always expected an earthly kingdom as is evidenced by their question in Acts 1:6. They were in Christ, but they are of the ones that will be on Earth. They are the Little flock of Matt 21:42-43 & Luke 12:32.

The key to unlocking and understanding this truth is 2 Tim. 2:15. We must Rightly Divide God's Word to get the proper understanding.

eph3Nine · Nov 23, 2005

Whaaaaaaat??? How do you get the Body being formed prior to Paul? There is absolutely NO evidence , scriptural or otherwise for this. There WAS no Body before Acts 9...there was a CHURCH, made up of Jews who believed in the kingdom gospel, but NO body of Christ.

You two simply arent making ANY sense.

Markea · Nov 23, 2005

CompleteinChrist said:
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

From this passage we know that some in Christ in this future dispensation will be of Heaven and some will be of the Earth.

That's speculation.. National Israel is the earthly entity.. blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. and the church of God is the heavenly entity.. not a split in this dispensation.. because we are ALL baptized into ONE BODY by the SPIRIT.. Jews and Gentiles alike.. and the context of Eph 1 pertains to Israel and the church.. it's sort of as the Lord asked Nicodemas..

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

In Matt 19:27-28 Christ promised the Twelve earthly thrones at the time when He (Christ ) would sit in his throne of glory.The twelve always expected an earthly kingdom as is evidenced by their question in Acts 1:6. They were in Christ, but they are of the ones that will be on Earth. They are the Little flock of Matt 21:42-43 & Luke 12:32.

Well, don't you believe that the church of God will rule and reign with Christ..?

Paul rebuked the Corinthian church for their reigning as kings without them.. and he taught them that they would judge angels and the world..

AND I agree that it's going to be pretty awesome seeing Peter, James, John.. all the Apostles.. ruling and reigning with Christ in the millennium..

eph3Nine · Nov 23, 2005

CompleteinChrist said:
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

From this passage we know that some in Christ in this future dispensation will be of Heaven and some will be of the Earth.In Matt 19:27-28 Christ promised the Twelve earthly thrones at the time when He (Christ ) would sit in his throne of glory.The twelve always expected an earthly kingdom as is evidenced by their question in Acts 1:6. They were in Christ, but they are of the ones that will be on Earth. They are the Little flock of Matt 21:42-43 & Luke 12:32.

The key to unlocking and understanding this truth is 2 Tim. 2:15. We must Rightly Divide God's Word to get the proper understanding.

Amen Lee...How anyone say this is speculation...???? Its right here in black and white. Geeeesh

Markea · Nov 23, 2005

So again... Israel is the earthly entity and the church of God is the heavenly..

What you folks do... is wrongly divide the truth and preach that the church of God is divided into two bodies.. an earthly one and also a heavenly one.. although the church of God is a heavenly one, period.. consisting of both Jews and Gentiles who have been baptized into ONE BODY by the same Spirit..

Israel was ALREADY set aside... their house was left DESOLATE.. they didn't get another chance in the book of Acts.. and it wasn't for them to know the times concerning the Lord restoring the kingdom to Israel.. but that they would be witnesses of CHRIST..

The GOSPEL goes to the Jew FIRST.. starting in JERUSALEM.. then to Judaea, Samaria, and to the uttermost part of the earth..

eph3Nine · Nov 23, 2005

Markea said:
So again... Israel is the earthly entity and the church of God is the heavenly..

What you folks do... is wrongly divide the truth and preach that the church of God is divided into two bodies.. an earthly one and also a heavenly one.. although the church of God is a heavenly one, period.. consisting of both Jews and Gentiles who have been baptized into ONE BODY by the same Spirit..

Israel was ALREADY set aside... their house was left DESOLATE.. they didn't get another chance in the book of Acts.. and it wasn't for them to know the times concerning the Lord restoring the kingdom to Israel.. but that they would be witnesses of CHRIST..

The GOSPEL goes to the Jew FIRST.. starting in JERUSALEM.. then to Judaea, Samaria, and to the uttermost part of the earth..

You refuse to ACKNOWLEDGE that God is not yet finished with Israel. She has seven more years left on the timetable for her courses of Curses that went along with her blessings. (See Lev 26)

God changed programs. NOT two bodies. ONLY One body...and it contains Jew and gentile under a new dispensation which you have not yet heard.

Gen 1:1 makes very clear that there are two realms that God is seeking to RE establish His reign and rule in. He isnt going to change the scenario just so folks can maintain their "spiritual denominational status", but expects us to put all preconceived ideas aside and cooperate with Him in HIS overall program for mankind.

An ambassador is one that accurately communicates the plan and purpose of the One he represents. If you arent representing Him clearly, you hinder His plan and purpose by being in error and promoting a program LONG GONE.

Thats serious stuff.

CompleteinChrist · Nov 23, 2005

Markea said:
So again... Israel is the earthly entity and the church of God is the heavenly..

What you folks do... is wrongly divide the truth and preach that the church of God is divided into two bodies.. an earthly one and also a heavenly one.. although the church of God is a heavenly one, period.. consisting of both Jews and Gentiles who have been baptized into ONE BODY by the same Spirit..

Israel was ALREADY set aside... their house was left DESOLATE.. they didn't get another chance in the book of Acts.. and it wasn't for them to know the times concerning the Lord restoring the kingdom to Israel.. but that they would be witnesses of CHRIST..

The GOSPEL goes to the Jew FIRST.. starting in JERUSALEM.. then to Judaea, Samaria, and to the uttermost part of the earth..

Israel is not a Spiritual Body like the Body of Christ. It is a nation of people that God will deal with again after the Body of Christ is caught up. God in this dispensation of grace is dealing with individuals, both Jews and Gentiles. Both must believe the same thing for their salvation. God in the past dispensation dealt with nations and Israel was above all nations.Through Israel's fall salvation has come to the Gentiles.Romans 11;25 - 28 explains that God will again turn to the nation Israel. There is only one Body , but there are different elections.

Markea · Nov 23, 2005

eph3Nine said:
You refuse to ACKNOWLEDGE that God is not yet finished with Israel. She has seven more years left on the timetable for her courses of Curses that went along with her blessings. (See Lev 26)

Now you're reaching for straws... I understand that ALL Israel will be saved and that they shall look upon the One whom they have pierced and mourn for Him in that DAY... as for right now.. THEY (the nation) are still blinded in part as the fulness of the Gentiles has not come in.. yet..

God changed programs. NOT two bodies. ONLY One body...and it contains Jew and gentile under a new dispensation which you have not yet heard.

Again, you're reaching.. ISRAEL has been set aside.. their house is left desolate.. and the GOSPEL is going out.. although the LORD will save ISRAEL and they will be the head of the nations again in the future.. for the times of the Gentiles will come to a close eventually..

If you arent representing Him clearly, you hinder His plan and purpose by being in error and promoting a program LONG GONE.

Thats serious stuff.

Keep reachin there eph.. you ultra dispensationalists are the ones in error with your self proclaimed rightly dividing attitude.. What I hinder is YOUR ULTRA DISPENSATIONAL program.. and gladly so..

eph3Nine · Nov 23, 2005

Markea said:
Now you're reaching for straws... I understand that ALL Israel will be saved and that they shall look upon the One whom they have pierced and mourn for Him in that DAY... as for right now.. THEY (the nation) are still blinded in part as the fulness of the Gentiles has not come in.. yet..

How is it that Im reaching for straws. Instead of just making a blanket statement, tell me what you are talking about.

Thats right, the nation is blinded in TOTAL...they are not considered Gods favored people anymore ...they are LO AMMI...NOT my people. Why? Because God set them ASIDE temporarily, and ushered in a NEW program. The fulness of the gentiles has not come in yet because God is still in the NEW program He initiated with PAUL.

Do you , or do you NOT believe that Paul is YOUR apostle with YOUR Information?

Again, you're reaching.. ISRAEL has been set aside.. their house is left desolate.. and the GOSPEL is going out.. although the LORD will save ISRAEL and they will be the head of the nations again in the future.. for the times of the Gentiles will come to a close eventually..

yep, Israel has been set aside. The gospel is going out, but NOT according to the criteria of times Past where the NATION ISRAEL was the channel of blessing to the nations, but according to the "preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the MYSTERY which was HID in God..." Hid to whom? To those of times PAST, the JEWS. Its a DIFFERENT Gospel..not the same criteria given to Peter and the boys, or what was taught by Jesus in His earthly ministry.

Keep reachin there eph.. you ultra dispensationalists are the ones in error with your self proclaimed rightly dividing attitude.. What I hinder is YOUR ULTRA DISPENSATIONAL program.. and gladly so..

Im still trying to ascertain just what it is you dont agree with here. Our right dividing attitude is given us as a responsibility we take very seriously. There are no ULTRA's as you so conveniently label us. Its just another name calling ploy which is just as unattractive as it is UNTRUE.

Please tell me , in as few words as possible, what it is you DONT agree with here. You arent making it real clear.

CompleteinChrist · Nov 23, 2005

God has designed his word (the Bible) in the form of a timeline. This timeline includes a past, a present and a future.Within this timeline are dispensations where God has dealt with man differently in each of them. We have to be careful and not read what God did in one dispensation and read it into another one. God has two programs: 1-Earthly 2-Heavenly-, synonomous names for these programs are: Prophecy & Mystery, also Law & Grace or Works & Grace.

2 Tim 2:15 tells us to separate truth from truth-to maintain God's timeline it is essential that we do.

Markea · Nov 23, 2005

eph,

You just said that I refuse to ACKNOWLEDGE that God is not yet finished with Israel.

I NEVER ONCE mentioned that.. you're completely wrong.. and the proof is in the fact that you will NOT find me stating that (what you say) anywhere...

It's just another false claim of yours.. you're good at it..

ModernDayProphet · Nov 23, 2005

Need I Remind You Not To Attack The Poster Please ! Its A Message Board. You May Speak Negatively About The Post....but Not The Poster. Please Exhibit Some Christian Love ! Thank You

eph3Nine · Nov 23, 2005

Markea said:
eph,

You just said that I refuse to ACKNOWLEDGE that God is not yet finished with Israel.

I NEVER ONCE mentioned that.. you're completely wrong.. and the proof is in the fact that you will NOT find me stating that (what you say) anywhere...

It's just another false claim of yours.. you're good at it..

If I misquoted you, I apologize. Too much of that goin on in here. I certainly dont want to add to it.

If you indeed think that God will again deal with Israel...when will that be? If God isnt dealing with Israel today, then what happened? Doesnt this indicate a change of program somewhere?

If so, what set of instructions are we to follow? Those of the earthly Jesus, or the Risen One?

Twelve "In" or "Out"?

Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!

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