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[ontherock1]

If the church I attend is any indication as to how the UMC is going socially than in my humble opinion the Church is in trouble.

My pastor spent the better part of 45 min. on the 'hunger situation' in the world. Not one mention of passage she supposedly based her "sermon" on. She also indicated that the Great Commission was not an edict to literally spread the Gospel Word. And several weeks before in a prayer she night as well have said that being hungry was a reason to steal food. Over all she seems more focused on the social aspects than on teaching Jesus Christ as the only means of salvation (and faith in Him).

As I said, I hope this is not the way the UMC as a whole is going down (the broad way that is).

 

[tpony298]

No, not all pastors are like that. In our church, we hear the Gospel and other scripture every sunday. Special needs, and praisesthat are laid on our hearts are spoken by the cong. at prayer time. Special events and special needs are in the bulletin, which is read every sunday.

We pray as a group about the special need and events and support those that the Holy Spirit lays on each heart.
Love Pony

 

[Texas Lynn]

What do you believe is the proper response to hunger?

 

[ontherock1]

What do you believe is the proper response to hunger?

I personally do not know how to respond to world hunger. All I know is that the world is not only physically hungry but also in dire need of spiritual sustenance. And it is that spiritual need that takes precedence over the physaical need.

I am not saying that world hunger isn't a problem (it is). All I'm saying is that nothing humankind can do can make it go away. Only God, in His own way and time, can do that. Jesus was very clear about what he wanted his followers to do from now until the time when God shall " wipe away every tear from their eye...no more death...mourning...crying or pain" (Revelation 21:4). He wanted his followers to "make disciples of all nations..."

Now if while doing my Christian duty I am able to help people in need, Great! And 9.9 times out of 10 that's the case, But addressing spiritual needs must come first.

 

[Redheadedstepchild]

Do you think adressing physical hunger provides a pathway to addressing spiritual hunger?

My observation is that the UMC has always been involved in addressing physical needs, and in fact makes it a priority. Having said that, I think it's important to do these things because we feel led to by the Holy Spirit out of love for our neighbors, and not because we feel (or are told) we should.

 

[EecoErin]

Dear On the Rock,

This thread is very confusing to me.

Why not talk about world hunger?
Why does the congregation need to hear verses to back up the message?
In your opinion, What is a pastor's role?
Does a pastor's role include informing the congregation of areas in which Christians can act as agents of justice and mercy?

I can understand your frustration if some of your pastor's ideas and theology do not mesh with yours. One can never find a pastor whose ideas mesh entirely with his/hers. There are as many different versions of Christianity as there are Christians. In the Methodist church that doesn't seem to be a cause for alarm; there aren't any church splits over disagreeing with a pastor (that I've heard of), or they're rare. In fact, that's some of the reasoning behind shifting pastors around from congregation to congregation; the congregation should stand despite the personality and personal opinions of the pastor. There is freedom of belief in the Methodist church.

Over all she seems more focused on the social aspects than on teaching Jesus Christ as the only means of salvation (and faith in Him).

I'd say what she's focused on is exactly what Jesus was concerned with. When the Torah official asked him how to inherit eternal life, he answered with the greatest commandments (Love God, others, and self) and the story of the good samaritan - ACT on your love.

Not say a sinner's prayer. Not call on his name. Not accept his religion above all others.

This message is prevalent in the sermon on the mount, too - those who listen and DO what his words say are like those who build their houses on the rock (Mt 7:24). Let your light shine so others may see your good works (5:16). Don't be like salt that's useless (5:13); be useful. BE perfect (5:48), DO the will of the Father (7:21).

If we had more people focusing on social justice issues, and fewer sermons harping on personal salvation and how all other religions are wrong, the world would be a better place.

You may have issues with the pastor's personal theology, and that's totally understandable. But if the message was a call to action which didn't rely on the rhetoric of scripture to back it up, I don't think that's an entirely bad thing.

 

[EecoErin]

I would also like to add that proselytizing to starving people is not very practical. The physical and spiritual worlds are not so divorced that people's spiritual and physical needs cannot be met at the same time.

 

[Texas Lynn]

I personally do not know how to respond to world hunger. All I know is that the world is not only physically hungry but also in dire need of spiritual sustenance. And it is that spiritual need that takes precedence over the physaical need.

With all due respect, that is patently ridiculous. Persons with inadequate diet, housing, healthcare, education, and other resources are not appropriately served by promises of pie in the sky by and by.

The poet and Unitarian Pastor Ric Masten wrote a moving poem, I believe titled "Talk About" expressing the sentiment of the oppressed of the world including (as well as I can remember) the conclusion, "Before we can even begin to talk about peace, let's talk about, talk about, let's talk about something to eat." Rich white missionaries hoping to save the poor little brown peoples of the earth offer them nothing of value without an aid component to their "ministry".

I am not saying that world hunger isn't a problem (it is). All I'm saying is that nothing humankind can do can make it go away.

Hmm-in this country farmers are paid subsidies to refrain from growing crops while people starve. The agricultural production of the North American Heartland has the capacity to feed the world, and our technologies can be exported to provide similar capacities to other geograhical breadbaskets across the world. Meanwhile our Administration seeks to suppress international family planning, for the sole purpose of throwing a bone to religious extremists in The United States. The statement, and the implication therein that "there's nothing we can do, it's up to God," is obscene, and serves no good purpose.

 

[tpony298]

Dear On the Rock,

This thread is very confusing to me.

Why not talk about world hunger?
Why does the congregation need to hear verses to back up the message?
In your opinion, What is a pastor's role?
Does a pastor's role include informing the congregation of areas in which Christians can act as agents of justice and mercy?

I can understand your frustration if some of your pastor's ideas and theology do not mesh with yours. One can never find a pastor whose ideas mesh entirely with his/hers. There are as many different versions of Christianity as there are Christians. In the Methodist church that doesn't seem to be a cause for alarm; there aren't any church splits over disagreeing with a pastor (that I've heard of), or they're rare. In fact, that's some of the reasoning behind shifting pastors around from congregation to congregation; the congregation should stand despite the personality and personal opinions of the pastor. There is freedom of belief in the Methodist church.

I'd say what she's focused on is exactly what Jesus was concerned with. When the Torah official asked him how to inherit eternal life, he answered with the greatest commandments (Love God, others, and self) and the story of the good samaritan - ACT on your love.

Not say a sinner's prayer. Not call on his name. Not accept his religion above all others.

This message is prevalent in the sermon on the mount, too - those who listen and DO what his words say are like those who build their houses on the rock (Mt 7:24). Let your light shine so others may see your good works (5:16). Don't be like salt that's useless (5:13); be useful. BE perfect (5:48), DO the will of the Father (7:21).

If we had more people focusing on social justice issues, and fewer sermons harping on personal salvation and how all other religions are wrong, the world would be a better place.

You may have issues with the pastor's personal theology, and that's totally understandable. But if the message was a call to action which didn't rely on the rhetoric of scripture to back it up, I don't think that's an entirely bad thing.

Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Earthly hunger is the product of man's evil greed, prejudice, envey by the rich and politically powerful. Why sould Americans be hungry and homeless when other Americans are scamming our government with expence sheets, vacations, and plain hording their riches and turning their back on those in need.
Yes, I believe the church as a whole and individuals should help those who are in need. But you won't get them to do it untill they turn their souls over to Jesus. and how will they learn with out a preacher.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Love, Pony

 

[EecoErin]

Thank, Texas - you said it better than I did.

All I'm saying is that nothing humankind can do can make it go away. Only God, in His own way and time, can do that.

Well, I could bear that theology, but only in light of the idea that we are God's ambassadors to the world; we are Christ's 'hands and feet,' so to speak, so we are the ones acting out God's "way".

Can humans cause hunger? Yes, they can, by their policies, etc.
So, can humans help prevent hunger? Yes, in many ways - birth control, sustainable agriculture practices, education, fair trade, global economy. There are ways; if we are made in God's image, then we have power to create and power to destroy.

Jesus was very clear about what he wanted his followers to do[...]He wanted his followers to "make disciples of all nations..."

And DO unto the least of these - like visit prisoners, give water to the thirsty, take care of the oppressed. I have not much problem with evangelism, as long as it is coupled with actually helping people in their situation, not just 'saving' them and leaving them. And I'm not trying to imply that's what you would do, but when you describe your "Christian duty" as making converts rather than "help[ing] people in need", it leaves room for doubt.

 

[EecoErin]

Earthly hunger is the product of man's evil greed, prejudice, envey by the rich and politically powerful.

Agreed, and it is sometimes also caused by our lack of foresight, planning, and understanding of the natural world (plants, natural disasters, diseases, etc).

Yes, I believe the church as a whole and individuals should help those who are in need. But you won't get them to do it untill they turn their souls over to Jesus. and how will they learn with out a preacher.

That may be the only way to get the church to do anything; I don't know. But there are plenty of motivated people who are not part of the Christian faith, who have not turned their souls over to Jesus, who are still entrenched in the war to help the hungry.

Rom 10:13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I go with the words of Jesus over Paul on this issue: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 7:21

 

[ontherock1]

With all due respect, that is patently ridiculous. Persons with inadequate diet, housing, healthcare, education, and other resources are not appropriately served by promises of pie in the sky by and by.

The poet and Unitarian Pastor Ric Masten wrote a moving poem, I believe titled "Talk About" expressing the sentiment of the oppressed of the world including (as well as I can remember) the conclusion, "Before we can even begin to talk about peace, let's talk about, talk about, let's talk about something to eat." Rich white missionaries hoping to save the poor little brown peoples of the earth offer them nothing of value without an aid component to their "ministry".



Hmm-in this country farmers are paid subsidies to refrain from growing crops while people starve. The agricultural production of the North American Heartland has the capacity to feed the world, and our technologies can be exported to provide similar capacities to other geograhical breadbaskets across the world. Meanwhile our Administration seeks to suppress international family planning, for the sole purpose of throwing a bone to religious extremists in The United States. The statement, and the implication therein that "there's nothing we can do, it's up to God," is obscene, and serves no good purpose.

1.) With regards the entire first paragraph: Not appropriately served by being preached the Gospel? Not appropriately served when they are told that Death itself has no power if they put their faith in Jesus, His sacrifice for all the and His Resurrection? With all due respect to you, that is a very dangerous sentiment.

2.) With regards to the last sentence of the second paragraph: I never said there should not be some sort of aid to needy people of the world that are being preached to. I just want it known that spiritual food is much more important when one looks at it from eternity. Sure, a person my be physically satiated for but a fleeting moment. But, our physical state of being is but a passing hour and then it is no more. And (for lack of a better term) our spiritual state of being is everlasting.

3.) With regards to the last sentence of the last paragraph: Do you believe that if God does not want something to happen anybody can make it happen anyway? or vice versa? If God wants something to happen any human can stop Him?

 

[Speculative]

I have a couple of thoughts on this.

First of all, there is nothing wrong with speaking about hunger, poverty and other ills of the world. As Christians, it is our responsibility to address these concerns, and it is the responsibility of the pastor to make us aware of them. Check out Matthew 25:31-46. Here, Jesus rebukes, in the harshest terms, those who would fail to address the physical concerns of their fellow humans. I do agree that spiritual needs must be met as well, but preaching to people that are starving and homeless without first taking care of their immediate needs is an adventure in missing the point, IMO.

Secondly, I agree with this:

I can understand your frustration if some of your pastor's ideas and theology do not mesh with yours. One can never find a pastor whose ideas mesh entirely with his/hers. There are as many different versions of Christianity as there are Christians. In the Methodist church that doesn't seem to be a cause for alarm; there aren't any church splits over disagreeing with a pastor (that I've heard of), or they're rare. In fact, that's some of the reasoning behind shifting pastors around from congregation to congregation; the congregation should stand despite the personality and personal opinions of the pastor. There is freedom of belief in the Methodist church.

I've taken the liberty to embolden the part I find most important. Believe me, I've had disagreements with pastors over the years--I had a BIG disagreement with our previous pastor (although she and I have remained friends). But as Paul points out in 1 Corinthians 1:10-16, the church is not a cult of personality. We're supposed to be serving God, not the pastor. We're not always going to agree with everything our pastor says or does--as a matter of fact, it's best that we do not. We can learn and grow that way.

Finally, I will agree with the OP on this point: it is a personal pet peeve of mine to read the lectionary texts and then go on to hear a sermon which does not relate to them in any way. As others have said, there's nothing really wrong with this, but it is a hang up of mine that I seem to share with the OP.

God Bless you all

 

[EecoErin]

Not appropriately served by being preached the Gospel? [...]With all due respect to you, that is a very dangerous sentiment.

I think what Texas Lynn might have meant - and TL, correct me if I'm wrong - is that if someone is starving, dehydrated, and uneducated, a fleeting personal ecstatic emotional experience of faith will not help the other factors much. (The letter attributed to James is pretty stern about helping physically, too.) I believe thinking these conversions are more important than physical needs is also dangerous. That doesn't mean the two can't go together, or shouldn't.

Do you believe that if God does not want something to happen anybody can make it happen anyway?[/quote]Sure. How about sin?

If God wants something to happen [can] any human can stop Him?

Good question. Do you believe we have free will?

Speculative - that used to be one of my pet peeves, too. Now I'm a lot more mellow about it, mostly because I've heard a lot of pastors (even a very few Methodist ones! ) mangle, misuse, manipulate, and misrepresent the words. So I'm glad to be free of the pedantry of pastors flaunting scripture every few lines, and instead am glad to hear about the ideas behind it, the history of it, and the incredible people involved in the stories that unfolded then, and are unfolding now. Just so you hear a perspective from the other side.

 

[Texas Lynn]

1.) With regards the entire first paragraph: Not appropriately served by being preached the Gospel? Not appropriately served when they are told that Death itself has no power if they put their faith in Jesus, His sacrifice for all the and His Resurrection? With all due respect to you, that is a very dangerous sentiment.

Look at it from the viewpoint of the destitute: a god who permitted their deprived state to occur is not generally viewed as a benevolent force. To tell someone in such a severe deprived state "there's a better world awaiting you if you just say the magic words!" Most likely the person will respond if at all with an epithet, and most justifiably so.

2.) With regards to the last sentence of the second paragraph: I never said there should not be some sort of aid to needy people of the world that are being preached to. I just want it known that spiritual food is much more important when one looks at it from eternity. Sure, a person my be physically satiated for but a fleeting moment. But, our physical state of being is but a passing hour and then it is no more. And (for lack of a better term) our spiritual state of being is everlasting.

Our spiritual state of being is not at an optimum when we disregard the oppressed. Smug sentiments of eternity coming from the comfortable directed toward the dispossessed should be taken for the arrogance that they are.

3.) With regards to the last sentence of the last paragraph: Do you believe that if God does not want something to happen anybody can make it happen anyway? or vice versa? If God wants something to happen any human can stop Him?

This recalls the words of the conservative critic of Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre. The story consisted of a protagonist who had been an orphan and came to marry a man of a noble title. the critic said such a story was "dangerous" and attacked "the appointment of God". That is, the belief among the British privileged class at the time was their wealth and power was ordained by God and suggestions the deprived of that era were every bit as good as the elite were regarded as sacreligious and worse. This was obscene then and it is is obscene now. There has never been any evidence God is responsible for privileged conferred on the basis of whose crotch somebody popped out of. The notion that there is confirms Napoleon Bonaparte's observation that "religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich." Such religion exists, but it is not in any sense Christian in that it is in opposition to the teachings of Christ.

 

[Texas Lynn]

I think what Texas Lynn might have meant - and TL, correct me if I'm wrong - is that if someone is starving, dehydrated, and uneducated, a fleeting personal ecstatic emotional experience of faith will not help the other factors much.

Correct, thank you.

 

[Speculative]

Speculative - that used to be one of my pet peeves, too. Now I'm a lot more mellow about it, mostly because I've heard a lot of pastors (even a very few Methodist ones! ) mangle, misuse, manipulate, and misrepresent the words. So I'm glad to be free of the pedantry of pastors flaunting scripture every few lines, and instead am glad to hear about the ideas behind it, the history of it, and the incredible people involved in the stories that unfolded then, and are unfolding now. Just so you hear a perspective from the other side.

I hear you, and it's not a huge big deal to me--just one of those minor nigglies that I have.

 

[morningstar2651]

If the church I attend is any indication as to how the UMC is going socially than in my humble opinion the Church is in trouble.

My pastor spent the better part of 45 min. on the 'hunger situation' in the world. Not one mention of passage she supposedly based her "sermon" on. She also indicated that the Great Commission was not an edict to literally spread the Gospel Word. And several weeks before in a prayer she night as well have said that being hungry was a reason to steal food. Over all she seems more focused on the social aspects than on teaching Jesus Christ as the only means of salvation (and faith in Him).

As I said, I hope this is not the way the UMC as a whole is going down (the broad way that is).

Here is a passage for the hunger situation.

[bible]Matthew 25:34-46[/bible]

Edit: Looks like the bible tags aren't working yet. Check this link.

 

[GraceSeeker]

For those who are looking for verses, I submit the following:

He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:8)

Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. (James 1:22-24)

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. (James 1:27)

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. (James 2:14-16)

Matthew 25

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Amos 5

21 "I hate, I despise your religious feasts;
I cannot stand your assemblies.
22 Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings,
I will not accept them.
Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, [b]
I will have no regard for them.
23 Away with the noise of your songs!
I will not listen to the music of your harps. 24 But let justice roll on like a river,
righteousness like a never-failing stream!

 

[ontherock1]

For those who are looking for verses, I submit the following:

He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6:8)

Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. (James 1:22-24)

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. (James 1:27)

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. (James 2:14-16)

Again, let me reiterate, I fully support any mission that brings help to the oppressed and needy peoples of the world. To turn a blind eye to such things is bordering on the criminal. But we must consider this:
Matthew 6:33 But First seek his kingdom and his righteousness and all these things will be given to you. (Jesus is referencing worries over what to eat or drink and what to wear).