Trying to understand....

[Light of the East]

Honestly, I'm not looking to pick a fight here. Just read this and my comments about it.

THE POLISH PRINCE (True Purgatory Story)
A Polish prince who, for some political reason, had been exiled from his native country bought a beautiful castle and property in France.

Unfortunately, he had lost the Faith of his childhood and was at the time of our story engaged in writing a book against God and the existence of a future life.

Strolling one evening in his garden, he came upon a poor woman weeping bitterly. He questioned her as to the cause of her grief.

"Ah! Prince," she replied, "I am the wife of Jean [John] Marie, your former steward, who died two days ago. He was a good husband to me and a faithful servant to Your Highness. His sickness was long and I spent all our savings on the doctors, and now I have nothing left to get Masses said for his soul."

The Prince, touched by her grief, said a few kind words and, though professing no longer to believe in a future life, gave her some gold coins to have Masses said for her husband's soul.

Some time after, it was again evening, and the Prince was in his study working feverishly at his hook.

He heard a loud rap at the door and without looking up called out to the visitor to come in. The door slowly opened and a man entered and stood facing the Prince's writing table.

On glancing up, what was not the Prince's amazement to see Jean Marie, his dead steward, looking at him with a sweet smile.

"Prince, " he said, "I come to thank you for the Masses you enabled my wife to have said for my soul. Thanks to the saving Blood of Christ, which was offered for me, I am now going to Heaven, but God has allowed me to come and thank you for your generous alms. "

He then added impressively: "Prince, there is a God, a future life, a Heaven and a Hell. "

Having said these words he disappeared.

The Prince fell upon his knees and poured forth a fervent Credo ( I believe in God.. ").

Why We Should Pray for the Souls in Purgatory

"The Holy Souls are eager for the prayers of the faithful which can gain indulgences for them. Their intercession is powerful. Pray unceasingly. We must empty Purgatory!" -- Saint Padre Pio

Here's my question for you: I get the feeling that these descriptions of Purgatory make it sound like the grace of God is being treated like merchandise. You know, do so much of this and throw in a little dash of that and - VOILA - you are free. You have bought your pardon. This was the corruption that drove Luther to his rebellion against the Church. What am I missing here?

I also wonder if the release of a person from Purgatory, based on a sense of remaining legal guilt, having to do with prayers or Masses being offered, then why does not Christ Himself forgive them (legal pardon) and pray for their release? Surely his prayers are much more efficacious than mine will ever be. Surely His Blood has paid any and all legal indebtedness, if such a thing exists.

Purgatory as described in the Roman Church makes no sense to me. What does make sense is that we encounter the fiery love of God and that fire burns away (purges) our remaining state of sinfulness so that we become Christ-like and enter into the trinitarian union, not as "co-God" or anything like that, but as recipients of His passionate love.

Perhaps someone here can help me understand.

 

[section9+1]

Your suspicions are correct. God's grace cannot be bought with unrighteous mammon.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Honestly, it seems to me that the Eastern Orthodox doctrine of the toll houses and Catholic teachings on Purgatory seem to point to the same after-death spiritual reality, only in different ways. I get what you're saying, though. That Purgatory seems to have a "buy your way out" theme attached to it. Perhaps similar things could be said of the cost of candles in Orthodox parishes, used to offer prayers for the deceased. Maybe the lesson we're to take away is that giving of our temporary wealth for the salvation and help of souls is the most worthwhile use of our money, whether we're in the East or West. The widow gave two mites, and Christ praised her.

 

[Light of the East]

Honestly, it seems to me that the Eastern Orthodox doctrine of the toll houses and Catholic teachings on Purgatory seem to point to the same after-death spiritual reality, only in different ways. I get what you're saying, though. That Purgatory seems to have a "buy your way out" theme attached to it. Perhaps similar things could be said of the cost of candles in Orthodox parishes, used to offer prayers for the deceased. Maybe the lesson we're to take away is that giving of our temporary wealth for the salvation and help of souls is the most worthwhile use of our money, whether we're in the East or West. The widow gave two mites, and Christ praised her.

I do thank you for you response, even though I am looking for more Traditional Roman Catholic responses to these questions.

A couple of things, if I may:

1. The teaching of the "tollhouses" in Orthodoxy is not very widely accepted and belongs to a small minority within the Orthodox faith. The piece I put up, however, is highly representative of Catholic thought regarding Purgatory and indulgences. In other words, one Church does not officially teach it (Tollhouses) and one Church does (Purgatory).

2. I have never heard anyone in Orthodoxy say that if you buy a candle, you help a soul get out of purgation and go to heaven. That is hardly an apples to apples comparison with the idea of indulgences.

3. In the Orthodox faith, we do understand that there is purgation after death, but the manner and how it is accomplished is entirely different than in the Western Church. There is, to begin, no place called Purgatory. Purgation takes place when the soul comes into the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and is transformed by being purged of that which is not like Christ. While our prayers are certainly a help to that soul, in some way we do not understand, there is no idea that if you say so many of them or get so many indulgences, you or the soul you are praying for is issued a free pass. When the work of changing the soul is done, then does the soul enter into union with God, and not a minute sooner.

4. We cannot give our wealth or anything else (other than our prayers) to help the soul in the next life. God uses our prayers to accomplish the cleansing of the soul (in some way unknown to us) and therefore we are commanded to pray for the deceased, but there is no set price to "spring the soul free." Our prayers for the dead are an act of charity towards them - that is all. What God does with them we do not exactly know, and I find myself more than a little tired of all these "seers" in Roman Catholicism who act as if they know every aspect of the next life with their visions, which quite frankly to me, are questionable at best.

 

[anna ~ grace]

1. The teaching of the "tollhouses" in Orthodoxy is not very widely accepted and belongs to a small minority within the Orthodox faith. The piece I put up, however, is highly representative of Catholic thought regarding Purgatory and indulgences. In other words, one Church does not officially teach it (Tollhouses) and one Church does (Purgatory).

This is not what I have heard from a growing number of Orthodox Christians. Honestly, the answers I've gotten have ranged from "it's rubbish" to "it's widely accepted" to "it's implied in our Liturgy therefor it is True and must be believed". One of the most famous Orthodox priests (Lazar Puhalo) to flat-out deny or mock the idea of aerial toll houses has been seriously reprimanded for doing so.

2. I have never heard anyone in Orthodoxy say that if you buy a candle, you help a soul get out of purgation and go to heaven. That is hardly an apples to apples comparison with the idea of indulgences.

The candles still have to be purchased, Light. And they play a role in the correct offering of prayers for the deceased.

3. In the Orthodox faith, we do understand that there is purgation after death, but the manner and how it is accomplished is entirely different than in the Western Church. There is, to begin, no place called Purgatory. Purgation takes place when the soul comes into the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and is transformed by being purged of that which is not like Christ. While our prayers are certainly a help to that soul, in some way we do not understand, there is no idea that if you say so many of them or get so many indulgences, you or the soul you are praying for is issued a free pass. When the work of changing the soul is done, then does the soul enter into union with God, and not a minute sooner.

True, but some accepted descriptions of the toll houses are remarkably graphic. Even scary.

4. We cannot give our wealth or anything else (other than our prayers) to help the soul in the next life. God uses our prayers to accomplish the cleansing of the soul (in some way unknown to us) and therefore we are commanded to pray for the deceased, but there is no set price to "spring the soul free." Our prayers for the dead are an act of charity towards them - that is all. What God does with them we do not exactly know, and I find myself more than a little tired of all these "seers" in Roman Catholicism who act as if they know every aspect of the next life with their visions, which quite frankly to me, are questionable at best.

It would be kind of nice to know if and when a loved one has left Purgatory and is now safe with Christ, though.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Honestly, I'm not looking to pick a fight here. Just read this and my comments about it.

THE POLISH PRINCE (True Purgatory Story)
A Polish prince who, for some political reason, had been exiled from his native country bought a beautiful castle and property in France.

Unfortunately, he had lost the Faith of his childhood and was at the time of our story engaged in writing a book against God and the existence of a future life.

Strolling one evening in his garden, he came upon a poor woman weeping bitterly. He questioned her as to the cause of her grief.

"Ah! Prince," she replied, "I am the wife of Jean [John] Marie, your former steward, who died two days ago. He was a good husband to me and a faithful servant to Your Highness. His sickness was long and I spent all our savings on the doctors, and now I have nothing left to get Masses said for his soul."

The Prince, touched by her grief, said a few kind words and, though professing no longer to believe in a future life, gave her some gold coins to have Masses said for her husband's soul.

Some time after, it was again evening, and the Prince was in his study working feverishly at his hook.

He heard a loud rap at the door and without looking up called out to the visitor to come in. The door slowly opened and a man entered and stood facing the Prince's writing table.

On glancing up, what was not the Prince's amazement to see Jean Marie, his dead steward, looking at him with a sweet smile.

"Prince, " he said, "I come to thank you for the Masses you enabled my wife to have said for my soul. Thanks to the saving Blood of Christ, which was offered for me, I am now going to Heaven, but God has allowed me to come and thank you for your generous alms. "

He then added impressively: "Prince, there is a God, a future life, a Heaven and a Hell. "

Having said these words he disappeared.

The Prince fell upon his knees and poured forth a fervent Credo ( I believe in God.. ").

Why We Should Pray for the Souls in Purgatory

"The Holy Souls are eager for the prayers of the faithful which can gain indulgences for them. Their intercession is powerful. Pray unceasingly. We must empty Purgatory!" -- Saint Padre Pio

Here's my question for you: I get the feeling that these descriptions of Purgatory make it sound like the grace of God is being treated like merchandise. You know, do so much of this and throw in a little dash of that and - VOILA - you are free. You have bought your pardon. This was the corruption that drove Luther to his rebellion against the Church. What am I missing here?

I also wonder if the release of a person from Purgatory, based on a sense of remaining legal guilt, having to do with prayers or Masses being offered, then why does not Christ Himself forgive them (legal pardon) and pray for their release? Surely his prayers are much more efficacious than mine will ever be. Surely His Blood has paid any and all legal indebtedness, if such a thing exists.

Purgatory as described in the Roman Church makes no sense to me. What does make sense is that we encounter the fiery love of God and that fire burns away (purges) our remaining state of sinfulness so that we become Christ-like and enter into the trinitarian union, not as "co-God" or anything like that, but as recipients of His passionate love.

Perhaps someone here can help me understand.

Well you know Light that we don't have to believe in your quoted story of the price or even in the words of st Padre Pio right?

If you read the CCC you'll notice just in how little detail the church go in depth about the purgatory.
much of the purgatory beliefs are to be found in hagiography and narratives related to saints.

Nowhere is it said that a saint has got everything right theologically just cause he got canonized.

As in the preposterous toll houses as found in the east, much of the ideas and theological reasoning when it comes to purgatory has derived from human superstition.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in life everlasting

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

The above doesn't state how almsgiving and masses said is working in on those in purgatory, it doesn't say why it works.

It only refers to the belief that it works based upon scripture and the Tradition.

The council of Trent even went as far as officially condemning all "additional teachings" attached to the purgatory that leads/ led to superstition.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

CT25
DECREE CONCERNING PURGATORY
Let the more difficult and subtle questions, and which tend not to edification, and from which for the most part there is no increase of piety, be excluded from popular discourses before the uneducated multitude. In like manner, such things as are uncertain, or which labour under an appearance of error, let them not allow to be made public and treated of. While those things which tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or which savour of filthy lucre, let them prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks of the faithful.

 

[Light of the East]

Well you know Light that we don't have to believe in your quoted story of the price or even in the words of st Padre Pio right?

No, I don't know that, and I sense a bit of attitude in your post to me. This story is one of many that I constantly see posted from a Traditional Catholic, so my source is fairly reliable. Furthermore, since there is no official condemnation of these stories, many of which involve "seers" and their constant visions of hell (which they almost seem to delight in recounting), and the fact they involve saints, they are of a serious nature. Either they are true or bogus, but an awful lot of folks create whole theologies around them

If you read the CCC you'll notice just in how little detail the church go in depth about the purgatory. Much of the purgatory beliefs are to be found in hagiography and narratives related to saints.

Yeah, as I said.....visions of the "seers" and the saints.

Nowhere is it said that a saint has got everything right theologically just cause he got canonized.

Yeah, well just try questioning these beliefs in a Catholic setting.

As in the preposterous toll houses as found in the east, much of the ideas and theological reasoning when it comes to purgatory has derived from human superstition.

You identify as Catholic, yet the above statement sounds more Protestant than Catholic. Would you care to clarify for me?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

As in the preposterous toll houses as found in the east, much of the ideas and theological reasoning when it comes to purgatory has derived from human superstition.

You identify as Catholic, yet the above statement sounds more Protestant than Catholic. Would you care to clarify for me?

How so?
I quoted the catechism and my faith doesn't supersede it.

It doesn't matter what your Catholic friends say about Fr Pio or anyone else for that matter, we're only required to believe what the catechism tells us to believe and it would be recommendable and beneficial for the sake of clarify that more Catholics kept to the infallible truth of that church and left it at that.

Did you even read my quotes from Trent prior to questioning my catholicity ?

 

[Light of the East]

How so?
I quoted the catechism and my faith doesn't supersede it.

It doesn't matter what your Catholic friends say about Fr Pio or anyone else for that matter, we're only required to believe what the catechism tells us to believe and it would be recommendable and beneficial for the sake of clarify that more Catholics kept to the infallible truth of that church and left it at that.

Did you even read my quotes from Trent prior to questioning my catholicity ?

Okay. I did read them, and especially the last one, which talks about superstition and stumbling blocks to the faithful.

I guess I am learning about a certain kind of Catholic who, when you question the visions of these "seers" and saints regarding Purgatory or the next life, immediate are ready to damn you to hell for not believing all that is said in those visions.

Seems that Trent had a pretty good idea of the problems possible with such private visions/revelations. And quite frankly, myself, given what I know of human nature and the frailty of our emotional and mental conditions, I am wont to dismiss most of what I see in these private revelations.

 

[Rhamiel]

ok lets do this step by step
step one
Purgatory is not about some legal fiction

it is about going from someone who has sinful tendencies, misguided beliefs, moral deficiencies
to being a Saint who can enter Heaven and be in the presence of the all good God, who is totally Holy

step two
prayer is helpful

Christians have always prayed for the souls of the dead, we can look at the very early diary of St. Perpetua that prayer for the dead can help their state
prayer for the dead is a good thing, the idea that prayers can help those in Purgatory is trusting in God and just the Christian belief in the effectiveness of prayer

ok lets get deeper

step three
the best prayer is the Mass
it is prayer, hymns, the laity and the priests praying together, the offering of the Body and Blood of Christ
the liturgy is just the best form of prayer

step four
stuff costs money, candles cost money, church electricity bills need to be paid, you have to pay the priest enough money for him to live on, you probably have a few other people working for your parish too, music director and/or organist, a secretary, a janitor
so if you are going to have a mass said for a special intention, you SHOULD pay some money, we can act all high and mighty about "filthy mammon" but it costs money if you want to have stuff

so do any of these points not make sense?

 

[Rhamiel]

also there are religious orders and individuals who say prayers and masses for people in purgatory
so even the destitute or those who have no one to pray for them will have some prayers said

but the general idea is, if you can afford to give something, it is customary

 

[Light of the East]

OK lets do this step by step
step one
Purgatory is not about some legal fiction

it is about going from someone who has sinful tendencies, misguided beliefs, moral deficiencies to being a Saint who can enter Heaven and be in the presence of the all good God, who is totally Holy

What you have given is the Orthodox definition of theosis, or what is called in the Roman Church "divinization." The Orthodox understanding of the next life is that our purgation takes the form of coming into the presence of Christ and the fire of His love burns away all that is not like Him and changes us into fiery love as He is.

The constant sense I get from descriptions from the Roman Church, including that of indulgences, is that you do this and that and this and you are forgiven. I don't hear anything about change of ontology, or what a person is in his very being. That is the part that troubles me. Your definition above is more Orthodox than Catholic.


step two
prayer is helpful

Christians have always prayed for the souls of the dead, we can look at the very early diary of St. Perpetua that prayer for the dead can help their state prayer for the dead is a good thing, the idea that prayers can help those in Purgatory is trusting in God and just the Christian belief in the effectiveness of prayer

And again, we Orthodox understand and also pray for our deceased loved ones (and if we are truly following Christ, our enemies and those we don't even know) but the help that they get is a mystery to us.

ok lets get deeper

step three
the best prayer is the Mass it is prayer, hymns, the laity and the priests praying together, the offering of the Body and Blood of Christ the liturgy is just the best form of prayer.

Again, no problem with prayer for those who have passed on, but the idea that so much of this or so much of that can instantly free the person. That is how I sometimes read stories of visions seen by "seers" in the Roman Church of Purgatory, rather than the visionaries seeing an ontological change. The way it is described is akin to "you pay so much, you get out of jail." That is the problem I am having with that approach. How can we really know or say when a person in the next life is changed into the likeness of Christ and is in union with Him?

step four
stuff costs money, candles cost money, church electricity bills need to be paid, you have to pay the priest enough money for him to live on, you probably have a few other people working for your parish too, music director and/or organist, a secretary, a janitor
so if you are going to have a mass said for a special intention, you SHOULD pay some money, we can act all high and mighty about "filthy mammon" but it costs money if you want to have stuff.

I understand that stuff costs money for a parish, and we all should give to support the parish, but the thing I am objecting to is akin to the old saying which boiled Luther's hide:

"When into the coffer the coin rings, from Purgatory the soul springs."

Is our theosis to be bought by another, or is it something that we have to go through by a personal encounter with Christ, who is Truth and Love and by those virtues makes a real, ontological change in who we are?

so do any of these points not make sense?

As you see, I do agree with much of what you say, just question the way it is applied.

 

[Rhamiel]

I do not think my response was more Orthodox than Catholic
I hate to sound rude but it sounds like you read mostly shallow things if you have not heard that Purgatory was purgative before
We can even see this in the Divine Comedy by Dante, he shows the pains of Purgatory as meaning to correct

 

[Light of the East]

I do not think my response was more Orthodox than Catholic
I hate to sound rude but it sounds like you read mostly shallow things if you have not heard that Purgatory was purgative before
We can even see this in the Divine Comedy by Dante, he shows the pains of Purgatory as meaning to correct

Purgatory may have been described as corrective, but the things I have heard from the descriptions of Latin "seers" are more of the description of being tortured rather than of healing.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Purgatory may have been described as corrective, but the things I have heard from the descriptions of Latin "seers" are more of the description of being tortured rather than of healing.

The council of Trent has spoken.

 

[Light of the East]

The council of Trent has spoken.

Don't keep me in suspense. What, pray tell, did Trent say?

 

[Rhamiel]

Purgatory may have been described as corrective, but the things I have heard from the descriptions of Latin "seers" are more of the description of being tortured rather than of healing.

If have your arm pushed out of its socket getting it pushed back in can look like torture

Or some harsher forms of psychotherapy also seem rather torturous

Some of the visionaries of the 1800's, while pious, are theologically simple
Maybe you should look into Aquinas?