Trying to regain my faith

[wazzy3007]

I guess I'm here because I haven't considered myself a Christian for the past 5 years, and for those past 5 years I've felt an emptiness that nothing could fill...

But I found that I could not believe in God if I couldn't somehow justify my faith in Him. So this my attempt at somehow attaining a personal understanding of God...

I know that the road back to faith will be a long one, and this is my first step:

​

I was born a Christian, baptized as an infant. In my childhood, I believed in God, Heaven, and Hell in the most literal sense. There was no doubt in my young mind that God is the Supreme Being, a benevolent Father who takes care of all His children
Reflecting upon my dying faith, I’ve reached an obvious conclusion: belief in God is a source of great comfort. God brings a degree of certainty to an uncertain world. It is indeed greatly comforting to think that in difficult times, I do not have only myself to rely upon, but that I may rely upon God as a weary traveler leans against an immovable rock.
As comforting as my faith was, it has been profoundly shaken. When I reached adulthood, I crossed an ocean and a continent to study alone in a university located in a large American city. It was a cold and competitive environment (both the city and the school) utterly different from the warm, protective environment of my upbringing. It was here that I first glimpsed the scale of suffering in this world. I lost faith in the benevolence of God, or should I say I could no longer suppress the doubts that had always lain dormant in my mind. The evidence all around me told me that either God doesn’t exist or that we have the wrong idea about him. Logic led me to believe in the former: that we are alone in the void, that only oblivion awaits us after death. I headed down the path of nihilism and became cynical in my ideas: 1) Goodness is not rewarded, 2) Might is right, 3) there is no absolute right or wrong, only what one can and cannot get away with. My conception of the world was one of chaos, nothingness, meaninglessness, where the only visible constants were self-interest and random luck.
It seems silly now that I lost my faith because I had encountered what I knew existed all along. I had always known that suffering existed, excessive meaningless suffering. Bad things happen to good people. I was just easier to deny it or attribute it to the mysterious ways of God when it wasn’t in my face all the time, bearing down upon me. Such disheartening evidence was always in front of me, it was simply a matter of when I opened my eyes to it.
Deep down in my heart, I wish for God’s existence. I’ve found a life without faith to be a barren and empty one. Cynicism is an unpleasant path and I was thus compelled to at least attempt a reassessment of faith. To arrive at a new understanding, it was necessary for me to re-examine my denial of a benevolent, responsible God. It is often said that “God moves in mysterious ways.” And to an extent I agree that it makes sense for God to defy human understanding. Therefore I can accept a certain ambiguity or incomprehensibility to the nature of God and His doings. However, I cannot accept as a matter of faith, certain qualities of God that are flat-out contradicted by reality. I was faced with some basic questions. Does God take care of his children? Is he a responsible God? If the answer is no, then there is no point in praying to Him. In effect, faith would be pointless. On the contrary there is almost overwhelming for an “irresponsible” God. Common arguments include the following: 1) Bad things happen to good people ALL the time 2) People suffer excessively and die painfully without relief from God 3) Many people report an absence of divine energy or intervention when praying.
To counter these refutations of a responsible God, I had to find a God I could believe in. Assuming the existence of God as my basic premise, I decided to analyze the issue of free will as the first step in my approach to this problem. Humans have been blessed with freedom within our own realm, in a sense God made us gods unto ourselves. Few would prefer a world where God saw to our every whim, where pain didn’t exist at all. In a free world, within our own human realm, Human beings are the ultimate decision makers. This is the gift of free will, wherein also lies the cost: mistakes, pain, and suffering. Secondly we must examine the nature of God’s assistance to man, for without any assistance faith is null. God gave man faith, a powerful instrument. He sets it before us. Whether or not to wield it, however, is for us to decide.
[FONT=&quot]To me if God does indeed exist, he is neither completely irresponsible nor some sort of benevolent baby-sitter. Like a good parent he lets us find our own way in the world, and lends us His strength through our confidence in Him and in ourselves. [/FONT]

 

[tapero]

I guess I'm here because I haven't considered myself a Christian for the past 5 years, and for those past 5 years I've felt an emptiness that nothing could fill...

But I found that I could not believe in God if I couldn't somehow justify my faith in Him. So this my attempt at somehow attaining a personal understanding of God...

I know that the road back to faith will be a long one, and this is my first step:

I was born a Christian, baptized as an infant. In my childhood, I believed in God, Heaven, and Hell in the most literal sense. There was no doubt in my young mind that God is the Supreme Being, a benevolent Father who takes care of all His children
Reflecting upon my dying faith, I’ve reached an obvious conclusion: belief in God is a source of great comfort. God brings a degree of certainty to an uncertain world. It is indeed greatly comforting to think that in difficult times, I do not have only myself to rely upon, but that I may rely upon God as a weary traveler leans against an immovable rock.
As comforting as my faith was, it has been profoundly shaken. When I reached adulthood, I crossed an ocean and a continent to study alone in a university located in a large American city. It was a cold and competitive environment (both the city and the school) utterly different from the warm, protective environment of my upbringing. It was here that I first glimpsed the scale of suffering in this world. I lost faith in the benevolence of God, or should I say I could no longer suppress the doubts that had always lain dormant in my mind. The evidence all around me told me that either God doesn’t exist or that we have the wrong idea about him. Logic led me to believe in the former: that we are alone in the void, that only oblivion awaits us after death. I headed down the path of nihilism and became cynical in my ideas: 1) Goodness is not rewarded, 2) Might is right, 3) there is no absolute right or wrong, only what one can and cannot get away with. My conception of the world was one of chaos, nothingness, meaninglessness, where the only visible constants were self-interest and random luck.
It seems silly now that I lost my faith because I had encountered what I knew existed all along. I had always known that suffering existed, excessive meaningless suffering. Bad things happen to good people. I was just easier to deny it or attribute it to the mysterious ways of God when it wasn’t in my face all the time, bearing down upon me. Such disheartening evidence was always in front of me, it was simply a matter of when I opened my eyes to it.
Deep down in my heart, I wish for God’s existence. I’ve found a life without faith to be a barren and empty one. Cynicism is an unpleasant path and I was thus compelled to at least attempt a reassessment of faith. To arrive at a new understanding, it was necessary for me to re-examine my denial of a benevolent, responsible God. It is often said that “God moves in mysterious ways.” And to an extent I agree that it makes sense for God to defy human understanding. Therefore I can accept a certain ambiguity or incomprehensibility to the nature of God and His doings. However, I cannot accept as a matter of faith, certain qualities of God that are flat-out contradicted by reality. I was faced with some basic questions. Does God take care of his children? Is he a responsible God? If the answer is no, then there is no point in praying to Him. In effect, faith would be pointless. On the contrary there is almost overwhelming for an “irresponsible” God. Common arguments include the following: 1) Bad things happen to good people ALL the time 2) People suffer excessively and die painfully without relief from God 3) Many people report an absence of divine energy or intervention when praying.
To counter these refutations of a responsible God, I had to find a God I could believe in. Assuming the existence of God as my basic premise, I decided to analyze the issue of free will as the first step in my approach to this problem. Humans have been blessed with freedom within our own realm, in a sense God made us gods unto ourselves. Few would prefer a world where God saw to our every whim, where pain didn’t exist at all. In a free world, within our own human realm, Human beings are the ultimate decision makers. This is the gift of free will, wherein also lies the cost: mistakes, pain, and suffering. Secondly we must examine the nature of God’s assistance to man, for without any assistance faith is null. God gave man faith, a powerful instrument. He sets it before us. Whether or not to wield it, however, is for us to decide.
[FONT=&quot]To me if God does indeed exist, he is neither completely irresponsible nor some sort of benevolent baby-sitter. Like a good parent he lets us find our own way in the world, and lends us His strength through our confidence in Him and in ourselves. [/FONT]

Hi, Welcome to CF! And thank you for sharing.

You wrote:

1) Goodness is not rewarded, 2) Might is right, 3) there is no absolute right or wrong, only what one can and cannot get away with. My conception of the world was one of chaos, nothingness, meaninglessness, where the only visible constants were self-interest and random luck.

What you describe above is true about the world. I'm speaking of the world; the world system. As well as the part after chaos, etc..that also is truth, and we have been in this state since the fall of man. Separated from God life is meaningless and is our state without God, which is without being in Christ.

There is absolute truth, and there is right and wrong.

Truth is Jesus and all which pertains to God.

Many people fall from God because what they know of God is not truth. Often times it is things heard from others and teachers who also teach wrong about God as well as from we Christians. Those not in Christ and those in Christ teach error about God.

To help in this is to know God for oneself, which comes by of course faith in Christ, and once a person is a new creation in Christ, all that occurs, we begin to learn about God from the bible. Need to be careful as to what one hears and to see if is truth in the bible.

There are things in the bible that are not to us, they are to the Hebrews or in other places to the apostles, and many base their hopes on some of those things written and when such doesn't occur, they are angry at God, and walk away.

And God did not lie to us. He told us we would suffer in this world. He told us this is not our world, Jesus also said, He is not of this world.

Non Christians and Christians alike suffer. But Christians have God indwelling us. God is with us. Can we starve? Yes. Can we be homeless, without a job, so sick and in agony and pain perhaps many years, until we die? Yes.

All things can happen to us, and we do not know what tomorrow will bring.

But we do know that God is with us. We know He will never leave us or forsake us. We know that He will work all things to our good. Yet, we may not even see that result, or may see in hindsite, but we may not this side of heaven.

In this life we are blessed spiritually and of course depends on our walk and understanding and where we are as to how we are as that concerns.

We know that while this life seems long and often painful, that it will not last forever; that we will one day be with God and then forever.

We know that if we do right, we can be thrown in jail for a lie about us saying we did wrong.

Anything awful and bad can happen and anyone preaching a story otherwise is lying.

We know we can do good, and recieve bad for doing so at the hand of another.

We can be a faithful and loving spouse many years and our spouse leaves us for another.

All these things can happen to anyone and as you know the list goes on forever.

Jesus did no wrong. He was lied about, he was beaten, had done nothing wrong. Much happened to Jesus and you see what occurred with Him. And He is God. He has no sin.

The world is cursed, we sin, others sin.

In Christ though, we are a new creation, born again, an heir of the King (God), and we have truths which help us to walk in this shadow of the valley of death.

There is one portion in Acts, where Paul speaks about what has occurred to him and others as they spread the gospel. It is heartwrenching to read. It occurs to many in the world. That Paul despaired of life it says.

He somehow did it, it appears to me, with joy. There are many like him in this world, people of strong faith.

Others don't have such faith, and it's okay, when the one walking on the water as Jesus told him to started to doubt, he started to sink.

Same for us.. If I struggle and take my eyes off God, which of course every one of us does, I will sink some. God is still there, He hasn't left. I just have to get back to the place to know that no matter what happens, it's going to be okay, no matter what happens.

God is involved in this world, He is not sitting off watching. He is with us. We can not know of the spiritual realm as to what is occuring.

We know we are in a struggle not against flesh and blood it says in Ephesians.. There is a demonic war going on.

And in that same chapter we are given what we need to make it thru this battle.

And we don't always do what is given us to deal with the battle and but those things given is what if we can keep on (the armor) we will stand as I said.

Here is the battle and the armor:

12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

Without Christ we can not do those things above in blue.

I've not spoken on other things here as pertains to your post and for some reason geared the reply I did this way. I think it's because perhaps I feel you know some of these things and perhaps need to hear them again.

I do not think life in Christ is bleak as may seem from what I wrote. I am just aware that many teach lies about what we will go through in life and about God, and I recognize that because of such many fall away from God. That is why I felt led to write as I did at the top of my reply here.

In Christ, we can have an abundant life. It is of the spiritual abundance and can also be in our relationships with people, with each other. I'm not a parent, but I know that when many have children there is nothing more precious to them in this world then their children and they would do anything for them. Others do all manner of things as pertains to their children.

Many have not had and can not give as they themselves never were loved and they have kids and they just continue the cycle.

Christ breaks us out of these things often times if we let Him or if we are able to, all depending on our personality, trauma, healing, understanding and walk with God.

One may have a sick child and full of faith and trust pray and that child can die. That person may not be able to love for a long time, maybe never, might blame God, might not be able to forgive if the harm came at someone's hand.

I don't normally write this way, and never say things like felt led, or such as I said above, but I do feel led today for some reason to write the above, and I know I've not spoken to much of what you wrote,and i hope it's okay.

Maybe it's just the way I'm feeling at the moment, but is just coming.

I just want you to know that God is good and will never fail you or us, who are in Christ.

And also you know that God loves all people in the world and desires all to know Him. We are greatly blessed in Christ no matter what we go through friend.

God bless,
tapero

 

[aiki]

However, I cannot accept as a matter of faith, certain qualities of God that are flat-out contradicted by reality. I was faced with some basic questions. Does God take care of his children? Is he a responsible God? If the answer is no, then there is no point in praying to Him. In effect, faith would be pointless. On the contrary there is almost overwhelming for an “irresponsible” God. Common arguments include the following: 1) Bad things happen to good people ALL the time 2) People suffer excessively and die painfully without relief from God 3) Many people report an absence of divine energy or intervention when praying.

Ah, but: 1.) Good things happen to good and bad people all the time.
2.) People also die suddenly and painlessly. And many times God provides relief.
3.) Many people report the overwhelming presence of God when they pray and record a multitude of His interventions.

The situation in which humanity finds itself is never purely the way you describe. What one focuses on, though, suggests alot about how one wants to see God...

Humans have been blessed with freedom within our own realm, in a sense God made us gods unto ourselves.

Yes, sort of, and no. We are free to make a variety of choices, but the consequences of those choices govern us. And the One who has instituted those consequences governs all. We aren't as free to do as we please as we would like to think.

Few would prefer a world where God saw to our every whim, where pain didn’t exist at all. In a free world, within our own human realm, Human beings are the ultimate decision makers.

There are many who would suggest to you from their experience that many times their decisions are made for them by circumstances beyond their control. How "ultimate" can one's decision making be if one has so little control over one's own circumstances? Does one always choose, for example, to have cancer? Does one choose where one is born? Does one choose how tall or short one is? Does one always choose to be in a car accident, or a hostage in a bank robbery, or a innocent victim of a drive-by shooting? We humans are far from being ultimate decision makers. The only thing we might be said to have any real control over is how we respond to those things over which we have no control.

This is the gift of free will, wherein also lies the cost: mistakes, pain, and suffering. Secondly we must examine the nature of God’s assistance to man, for without any assistance faith is null. God gave man faith, a powerful instrument. He sets it before us. Whether or not to wield it, however, is for us to decide.

Humans wield faith constantly, and largely without conscious decision, in a wide variety of mundane endeavours. Taking public transit, for instance, or turning on a light switch, using the federal postal service, turning the ignition switch in a car, buying a ticket to a concert, sitting in a chair -- all these things require, to one degree or another, faith. Our faith is only as powerful as the object in which it is placed.

To me if God does indeed exist, he is neither completely irresponsible nor some sort of benevolent baby-sitter. Like a good parent he lets us find our own way in the world, and lends us His strength through our confidence in Him and in ourselves.

This sounds rather like you're saying God just gives us the gas to do as we please. Is this right? If so, as a Christian I have to disagree. God doesn't aid us in doing what we want, nor is He working to keep us independent of Him. In fact, Christian maturity involves an increasing dependence on God.

Peace to you.

 

[Solidlyhere]

The OP said: "I found that I could not believe in God if I couldn't somehow justify my faith in Him."

Why do you need to justify your Faith?
The more closely you look at Faith, the less it becomes.
So, if you CHOOSE to need to justify your Faith, then you might-as-well just forget the whole thing.
You are coming at it from the opposite direction, and will (eventually) fail.

The OP said: "As comforting as my faith was..."
If you do something that feels comforting (and you enjoy feeling comfortable), then THAT is the Bottom Line.
I find my Faith comforting.
Part of Faith is suspending the "logical" mind.
God is NOT logical (or fully understandable).

I am a person who WANTS to feel comfortable.
This is (a major reason) why I CHOOSE to have Faith.

The OP asked himself: "Does God take care of his children?"
Well, he took care of you.
You have good-enough health, and have not had to face starvation.
If you have convinced yourself that God must give every single person a good Life, then that is faulty.
God creates every single person to DIE.
Some people live longer than others, but everyone dies.
Most people will go through a period of suffering before dying.
Some people will go through years of severe pain before they die.

So, is allowing pain "right" (if there's a God)?
Many people have a powerful Spiritual Awakening when faced with Death (or, severe pain).
They realize that being alive gives them a chance to over-come the basic Human irritations.

 

[Adstar]

I guess I'm here because I haven't considered myself a Christian for the past 5 years, and for those past 5 years I've felt an emptiness that nothing could fill...

But I found that I could not believe in God if I couldn't somehow justify my faith in Him. So this my attempt at somehow attaining a personal understanding of God...

I know that the road back to faith will be a long one, and this is my first step:
I was born a Christian, baptized as an infant. In my childhood, I believed in God, Heaven, and Hell in the most literal sense. There was no doubt in my young mind that God is the Supreme Being, a benevolent Father who takes care of all His children
Reflecting upon my dying faith, I’ve reached an obvious conclusion: belief in God is a source of great comfort. God brings a degree of certainty to an uncertain world. It is indeed greatly comforting to think that in difficult times, I do not have only myself to rely upon, but that I may rely upon God as a weary traveler leans against an immovable rock.
As comforting as my faith was, it has been profoundly shaken. When I reached adulthood, I crossed an ocean and a continent to study alone in a university located in a large American city. It was a cold and competitive environment (both the city and the school) utterly different from the warm, protective environment of my upbringing. It was here that I first glimpsed the scale of suffering in this world. I lost faith in the benevolence of God, or should I say I could no longer suppress the doubts that had always lain dormant in my mind. The evidence all around me told me that either God doesn’t exist or that we have the wrong idea about him. Logic led me to believe in the former: that we are alone in the void, that only oblivion awaits us after death.

Why did you go for the first option, That God did not exist? Why not go to the second option that your view of God was wrong?

You loved Jesus you say? Did you listen to what Jesus said? Did you know what Jesus said?

Jesus said:
John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

tribulation does not mean you will be waited on hand and foot by God showering your with chocolates and ice cream. Tribulation does not mean that we will be magically whisked out of a car when it slams into an oncoming truck and bursts into a ball of flame.

Tribulation means suffering.
Tribulation means persecution.
Tribulation means trouble.

You say you loved Jesus but did you believe Him? If you believed Jesus you would have faced your personal troubles and taken in the troubles and suffering of this would and you would have remained at peace within yourself.

Jesus did not come into the world to ensure His followers where all millionaires living on candy stick island in some cargo cult. Jesus came to atone for the sins of those who Believe Him and to give them peace and strength to persevere in a world full of pain and suffering.

I thank God my faith is not based on material or physical reward in this life. My Faith is based on the Love of Jesus for me and the truth of the Love and mercy He led us to have for others.

I headed down the path of nihilism and became cynical in my ideas: 1) Goodness is not rewarded, 2) Might is right, 3) there is no absolute right or wrong, only what one can and cannot get away with. My conception of the world was one of chaos, nothingness, meaninglessness, where the only visible constants were self-interest and random luck.
It seems silly now that I lost my faith because I had encountered what I knew existed all along. I had always known that suffering existed, excessive meaningless suffering. Bad things happen to good people. I was just easier to deny it or attribute it to the mysterious ways of God when it wasn’t in my face all the time, bearing down upon me. Such disheartening evidence was always in front of me, it was simply a matter of when I opened my eyes to it.

Good and bad things happen to all people in the world there is suffering because the world is a creation sabotaged by satan. But it will not always be like this. And get this.

There are No i repeat No good people on planet earth. What you call Good still falls short of the perfection that is God. You call people good because your looking at them and comparing them from a human perspective that is not perfect.

Deep down in my heart, I wish for God’s existence. I’ve found a life without faith to be a barren and empty one. Cynicism is an unpleasant path and I was thus compelled to at least attempt a reassessment of faith. To arrive at a new understanding, it was necessary for me to re-examine my denial of a benevolent, responsible God. It is often said that “God moves in mysterious ways.” And to an extent I agree that it makes sense for God to defy human understanding. Therefore I can accept a certain ambiguity or incomprehensibility to the nature of God and His doings. However, I cannot accept as a matter of faith, certain qualities of God that are flat-out contradicted by reality. I was faced with some basic questions. Does God take care of his children?

Yes He has secured for them eternity with Him in a perfect existence. How much better care can one provide for their children? Can any parent on earth give that to their children? Even the most loving ? No. How long is a life compared to eternity??? It is as nothing my friend. When you look at things from an eternal perspective the time spent in this world is as nothing in comparison. How can one compare the sufferings of this life to the joy of the next?

Romans 8
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labours with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

To me if God does indeed exist, he is neither completely irresponsible nor some sort of benevolent baby-sitter. Like a good parent he lets us find our own way in the world, and lends us His strength through our confidence in Him and in ourselves.

God gives guidance and places before us a Choice to agree or disagree with His revealed will. God does give strength to us to face this world and without that kind of baby sitting we would turn into the most miserable bunch of suffering wretches imaginable.


Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[wazzy3007]

I am just aware that many teach lies about what we will go through in life and about God, and I recognize that because of such many fall away from God. That is why I felt led to write as I did at the top of my reply here.
Many have not had and can not give as they themselves never were loved and they have kids and they just continue the cycle.
Christ breaks us out of these things often times if we let Him or if we are able to, all depending on our personality, trauma, healing, understanding and walk with God.
One may have a sick child and full of faith and trust pray and that child can die. That person may not be able to love for a long time, maybe never, might blame God, might not be able to forgive if the harm came at someone's hand.
I don't normally write this way, and never say things like felt led, or such as I said above, but I do feel led today for some reason to write the above, and I know I've not spoken to much of what you wrote,and i hope it's okay.

I guess my main struggle was trying to reconcile what I perceived to be undeserved suffering with the existence of a benign God.
Many people around me have turned their back on religion, but I do think you’ve hit critical point when you said that many teach lies about what we will go through in life and about God, and I recognize that because of such many fall away from God.
It is such a simple yet valid point that I have overlooked. I realize that I will have to deepen my understanding of the Bible.
I also thought about what you said on the power of God to free us from cycles of cruelty. That too is very true, and I believe is an example of God’s power.

Ah, but: 1.) Good things happen to good and bad people all the time.

But shouldn’t good things happen to good people more often, and bad things happen to bad people more often. I don’t see that in the world, maybe I’m wrong. What I see is what you said…things just happen randomly to good and bad people alike. I don’t see any divine justice operating the our world, or is it only reserved for life after death?

This sounds rather like you're saying God just gives us the gas to do as we please. Is this right? If so, as a Christian I have to disagree. God doesn't aid us in doing what we want, nor is He working to keep us independent of Him. In fact, Christian maturity involves an increasing dependence on God.
Peace to you.

I am saying that God has granted humanity a large degree of independence, so that we may choose our own paths. But God has also set before us the instrument of faith to help us in our search for the right paths. Those are just my own thoughts, but I am open to learn. Could you please explain to me what you mean by “Christian maturity involves an increasing dependence on God”?

The OP asked himself: "Does God take care of his children?"
Well, he took care of you.
You have good-enough health, and have not had to face starvation.
If you have convinced yourself that God must give every single person a good Life, then that is faulty.

This might not be true but it sounds to me like you’re saying, “Nothing tragic has happened to you so what are you complaining about?”
If that is indeed what you are implying, then your argument solves nothing. First of all you don’t know me that well. Assuming that I was a victim of extreme poverty, how would you answer me then?
But most importantly, doesn’t the process of inquiry help one to gain a deeper understanding of God? Did Jesus not encourage his pupils to ask questions? I don’t believe faith and reason are as mutually exclusive as you suggest.

Tribulation does not mean you will be waited on hand and foot by God showering your with chocolates and ice cream. Tribulation does not mean that we will be magically whisked out of a car when it slams into an oncoming truck and bursts into a ball of flame.

Tribulation means suffering.
Tribulation means persecution.
Tribulation means trouble.

Jesus did not come into the world to ensure His followers where all millionaires living on candy stick island in some cargo cult. Jesus came to atone for the sins of those who Believe Him and to give them peace and strength to persevere in a world full of pain and suffering.

I’m fully aware that it is ridiculous to deny God because He doesn’t spoon-feed us. I accept that the world is full of suffering, or tribulation as your put it. What I was trying to come to terms with was how randomly this tribulation was being meted out.

 

[Jayangel81]

Tapero said it very well

Quote:
Originally Posted by aiki
Ah, but: 1.) Good things happen to good and bad people all the time.
quote
"But shouldn’t good things happen to good people more often, and bad things happen to bad people more often. I don’t see that in the world, maybe I’m wrong. What I see is what you said…things just happen randomly to good and bad people alike. I don’t see any divine justice operating the our world, or is it only reserved for life after death?"



A lot of people would seem to think so. The truth of the matter is Jesus said we will have trials and tribulations. (difference is we will persevere and we have God for comfort and wisdom)And it wasnt going to be easy. I am personally suffering with great pain and yet i deny asking God to heal me. As Paul once said :

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 2Corinthians 12:9"

You also have to remember there are no Good people, not one except God.

But in the end the people in Christ will not have to suffer and these "bad people" will suffer

 

[tapero]

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[Jayangel81]

I totally agree the thorns come from our sins/enemy.. God does not cause illnesses and suffering but He does use them to make us stronger, and bring us closer to Him

I havent read about the chinese, I do pray that they keep strong...I feel like this is getting derailed lol much love to you all!

 

[tapero]

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[AvgJoe]

I was born a Christian, baptized as an infant. In my childhood, I believed in God, Heaven, and Hell in the most literal sense.

Do you mean that you were born into a Christian family? Because no one is a Christian when they are born and baptism does not make anyone a Christian, either. And, while believeing in God is good, that doesn't make one a Christian either. James 2:19 tells us that even the demons believe but they certainly aren't Christians.

In Mark 1:15, Jesus tells us how to become a Christian. He says to "repent and believe the gospel." To repent means to have a change of mind which results in a change of action. Biblical repentance, in relation to becoming a Christian, is changing your mind from rejection of Jesus, to faith in Jesus.

In the second part, Jesus said to believe the gospel. The word gospel simply means "good news." What is this gospel that is to be believed? In 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Paul spells out the gospel for us, "that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures."

Paul expands on how to become a Christian, in Romans 10:9-10, where he writes "For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved."

Believing that Jesus died in your place as payment for your sins, believing that He was resurrected on the third day, confessing Him with your mouth and simply trusting Him to save you like He said He will, is what it means to become a Christian.

 

[wazzy3007]

I was raised a Christian, although my family wasn't strictly religious (we didn't go to church every Sunday). I believed in God with all my heart as a child but when I left home for college in a big city, my faith was challenged, and I abandoned it. Hardship and poverty were all around me, but what disheartened me the most was the ruthless selfishness of so many city-dwellers.

I couldn't pray because I didn't believe in God anymore. One night I knelt down in prayer but I realized I just couldn't do it because it wouldn't be sincere. After visiting this site and doing a lot of thinking on my own -- my first post in this thread was an attempt for me to reach an understanding of God (without some form of understanding I could not regain my faith) -- I have begun to allow Him back into my life. I realize that He has always been a positive influence in my life. Speaking to many big-city people, many hold "self-reliance" as their god. I asked them about God and they reply that they have faith only in themselves. In short, many of the people around me had an individualistic "survival of the fittest" mentality. I began to aspire towards the same mentality, but now I have realized that such an attitude is not for me. Faith is for me.

 

[cerette]

I was raised a Christian, although my family wasn't strictly religious (we didn't go to church every Sunday). I believed in God with all my heart as a child but when I left home for college in a big city, my faith was challenged, and I abandoned it. Hardship and poverty were all around me, but what disheartened me the most was the ruthless selfishness of so many city-dwellers.

I couldn't pray because I didn't believe in God anymore. One night I knelt down in prayer but I realized I just couldn't do it because it wouldn't be sincere. After visiting this site and doing a lot of thinking on my own -- my first post in this thread was an attempt for me to reach an understanding of God (without some form of understanding I could not regain my faith) -- I have begun to allow Him back into my life. I realize that He has always been a positive influence in my life. Speaking to many big-city people, many hold "self-reliance" as their god. I asked them about God and they reply that they have faith only in themselves. In short, many of the people around me had an individualistic "survival of the fittest" mentality. I began to aspire towards the same mentality, but now I have realized that such an attitude is not for me. Faith is for me.

Jesus died for your sins and he did it because he loves you. You are free to believe this wonderful gospel!

 

[Adstar]

I’m fully aware that it is ridiculous to deny God because He doesn’t spoon-feed us. I accept that the world is full of suffering, or tribulation as your put it. What I was trying to come to terms with was how randomly this tribulation was being meted out.

"meted out." ??

Seems to me you might be under the misconception that someone up there has a consignment of troubles and decides who will get what trouble and then metes it out?

Maybe you think trouble only comes to an individual when God decides to give it to that person?

Or maybe the trouble that one faces has a relation to ones goodness or badness?

If you do have this line of thought then it is understandable why you would have trouble wondering why one person is given a hard time while another person seems to get through life without many hassles. If you do have this line of thinking then you are totally wrong.

The randomness and chances of troubles is just a by-product of living in a world that is not perfect. Having faith or having no faith will not change this. But having faith in Jesus does give one strength to face whatever one faces no matter how bad it gets. King Solomon said:[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Ecclesiastes 9

[FONT=&quot] 11 I returned and saw under the sun that—

The race is not to the swift,
Nor the battle to the strong,
Nor bread to the wise,
Nor riches to men of understanding,
Nor favor to men of skill;
But time and chance happen to them all.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days[/FONT]

 

[wazzy3007]

Well to be perfectly honest, I did think that a responsible God would protect the good of heart. If He doesn't mete out hardship, He could at least mitigate it for the good of heart, while leaving the wicked to suffer the vicissitudes of an imperfect world. That said, I have gotten past that way of thinking for it prevented me from believing in God.

The views you have expressed are similar to those at which I have arrived from my contemplation.

 

[Criada]

Very glad to hear that you are coming back to God.
It is very hard to face your doubts and try to find answers, I admire your courage and committment.
Praying for you.

 

[aiki]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aiki
Ah, but: 1.) Good things happen to good and bad people all the time.

But shouldn’t good things happen to good people more often, and bad things happen to bad people more often. I don’t see that in the world, maybe I’m wrong. What I see is what you said…things just happen randomly to good and bad people alike. I don’t see any divine justice operating the our world, or is it only reserved for life after death?

I think good things do happen to good people more often than to bad. This effect is called "reaping what you sow." There are exceptions and degrees to this, but generally it holds true.

God makes it pretty clear that this life we live on Earth is only the precursor to a better, greater life He intends for us with Him in heaven. Christians are urged many times in the Bible not to get too focused on "things below," things pertaining to earthly living, but rather to "set our affections on things above." God's justice is also most fully expressed in the "afterlife." This isn't to say, however, that God doesn't render due justice to people while they are here on Earth. There are plenty of examples of God's temporal justice in and out of the Bible. Of course, for one who doesn't believe in God, it all just seems quite random. Especially when we see someone who really ought to "get it" from God but doesn't, we think God is unjust or maybe uninvolved, or disinterested. What He really is, however, is merciful and patient "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Quote:
Originally Posted by aiki
This sounds rather like you're saying God just gives us the gas to do as we please. Is this right? If so, as a Christian I have to disagree. God doesn't aid us in doing what we want, nor is He working to keep us independent of Him. In fact, Christian maturity involves an increasing dependence on God.
Peace to you.

I am saying that God has granted humanity a large degree of independence, so that we may choose our own paths. But God has also set before us the instrument of faith to help us in our search for the right paths. Those are just my own thoughts, but I am open to learn. Could you please explain to me what you mean by “Christian maturity involves an increasing dependence on God”?

Sure. I'll let the Bible speak for itself:

John 15:1-11 (NKJV)
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. (emphasis mine)

Peace to you.

 

[Adstar]

Well to be perfectly honest, I did think that a responsible God would protect the good of heart. If He doesn't mete out hardship, He could at least mitigate it for the good of heart, while leaving the wicked to suffer the vicissitudes of an imperfect world. That said, I have gotten past that way of thinking for it prevented me from believing in God.

The views you have expressed are similar to those at which I have arrived from my contemplation.

[FONT=&quot]Cool it is good to hear you are heading back to God with a more mature and realistic view of the situation.

A couple of points:
God does mitigate the effects of hardship for me by giving me the peace of mind and an eternal perspective on things, there is also the peace of Jesus that is mentioned in scripture, that has come forth in believers lives when they face exceptional acts of persecution. Many followers of Jesus have moved their executioners in the way they have faced the persecution meted out to them.

Also if you think of eternity in the Lake of fire and you know that the evil of heart are heading there then how can you wish more suffering on them in this life? They will have an eternity of suffering in the next. Compare this with those who are righteous in heart, who have embraced the Love of the truth Jesus. We have eternity with God in a paradise. And our lives here are but as a blink of an eye in comparison.

An eternal perspective changes thing.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days[/FONT]