Trying to reconcile these things....

[Bob Jones Student]

Hello all,

I'm trying to fully understand and accept that five-point calvinism rightly interprets the Bible, nevertheless I have some reservations... But please don't see me as attacking, I'm only trying to understand these issues that I've been thinking through.

I understand about the election, and fully agree with John chapter 6, but one thing that has left me to head scratching...

How come God throughout the OT and NT is basically pleading with sinners to turn to Him and be saved, when it wouldn't be possible unless He opened them up?

Some other questions too:

1)Did God somehow predestine the fall of man, without Himself being sinful and wicked in doing so? Or...

2) If God did not predestine the fall of man, did God in true sincerity give Adam and Eve the only true free will choice in the Bible? Basically what I'm saying, were Adam and Eve given the choice to obey God or to disobey God, apart from God predestinating them to choose? So in effect the only free will ever given in the Bible. Then based off their response, God put the redemption plan into action.

And if #2 is the correct idea, then would it be natural to say that Adam was our head, and that we were in Adam when he sinned, and that we are extensions of Adam? Thus allowing God to only choose some for salvation, because we were sinners based on being an extension of some sort of Adam. Because God told Adam that he would die when he ate the fruit. So to my understanding, we were in Adam, and an extension of Adam when he sinned, thus allowing God to only predestine and have mercy on some, and allowing the rest to go justly condemned.

I hope you guys can follow my reasoning... please critique me with solid, and understandable responses.

 

[larryjf]

How come God throughout the OT and NT is basically pleading with sinners to turn to Him and be saved, when it wouldn't be possible unless He opened them up?

Because many are called but few are chosen.
There is a distinction between God's revealed and His hidden will from our perspective. His hidden will is not known to us, and it is what He has actually ordained to happen. His revealed will is also called His prescribed will because it contains what God prescribes for us to do.

1)Did God somehow predestine the fall of man, without Himself being sinful and wicked in doing so? Or...

Yes, God did plan the fall. He is not sinful in it for many reasons. The most obvious is that man still fell because he freely chose to fall, and as such is responsible for his decision to rebel against God.

The less obvious reason to some comes from our presuppositions of what is good and bad. God is good, all that He does is good simply because He does it.

The whole point of creation is to bring glory to God. God is multi-faceted, and the more of His facets that are revealed the more glory He gets.

Without the fall we would not know of God's justice, His love in dying for us on the cross in the person of Christ, the seriousness of sin against God, God's grace towards sinners who don't deserve His favor, etc. etc.

So without the fall we would have a smaller picture of God, and with the smaller picture He would be less glorified.

The end of creation is Christ, not Adam. Therefore God's plan included everything to bring Christ to fruition.

 

[larryjf]

More about calling everyone, but saving some...

The call goes out to everyone, but not for the same purpose. Much like the same sun will harden clay but melt ice, so the call of God hardens the heart of the reprobate while it softens the heart of the elect.

 

[Iosias]

Hello all,

I'm trying to fully understand and accept that five-point calvinism rightly interprets the Bible, nevertheless I have some reservations... But please don't see me as attacking, I'm only trying to understand these issues that I've been thinking through.

I understand about the election, and fully agree with John chapter 6, but one thing that has left me to head scratching...

How come God throughout the OT and NT is basically pleading with sinners to turn to Him and be saved, when it wouldn't be possible unless He opened them up?

Some other questions too:

1)Did God somehow predestine the fall of man, without Himself being sinful and wicked in doing so? Or...

2) If God did not predestine the fall of man, did God in true sincerity give Adam and Eve the only true free will choice in the Bible? Basically what I'm saying, were Adam and Eve given the choice to obey God or to disobey God, apart from God predestinating them to choose? So in effect the only free will ever given in the Bible. Then based off their response, God put the redemption plan into action.

And if #2 is the correct idea, then would it be natural to say that Adam was our head, and that we were in Adam when he sinned, and that we are extensions of Adam? Thus allowing God to only choose some for salvation, because we were sinners based on being an extension of some sort of Adam. Because God told Adam that he would die when he ate the fruit. So to my understanding, we were in Adam, and an extension of Adam when he sinned, thus allowing God to only predestine and have mercy on some, and allowing the rest to go justly condemned.

I hope you guys can follow my reasoning... please critique me with solid, and understandable responses.

Have a read of http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

 

[xapis]

Have a read of http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

I second that! I would also recommend reading Francis Turretin and Meredith Kline on these topics.

Are you familiar with monergism.com?