Trying to discover my niche

[Dmckay]

Perhaps you all can be of some assistance to me. Allow me to explain. I was Ordained to the Conservative Baptist Ministery in 1980. As I continued to pursue my education in Biblical languages and Biblical theology I noticed what I considered inconsistancies between Scripture and what I had been taught doctrinally.

I wrote my Doctoral dissertation on an evaluation Biblically of what I had termed, "Lordship Salvation." I had never heard the term used before, but it fit what I was seeing developed in Scripture as God's plan of salvation. When I submitted the dissertation I was roundly denounced as a heretic by my Doctoral Committee. The only exception was one Professor who held two earned Doctorates from Concordia and Dallas Theological Seminaries. He took me aside and informed me that what I had managed to do was produced one of the most detailed defenses of T.U.L.I.P. he had ever seen.

The school was not Calvinist so while I had read about T.U.L.I.P. in Church History classes, I had not studied T.U.L.I.P. I have since studied the Synod of Dort and realize that I am in point of fact a believer in all 5 point of T.U.L.I.P., but does that make me a Calvinist? I have never really had the time in 30+ years of ministry to read, much less study the writings of Calvinism. I don't know if I fit as a Calvinist or a Reformed theologian. I believe in a dispensational hermeneutic and am Pre-Trib and Pre-Mill in my eschatological viewpoint.

I posted a reworking of my dissertation under the headings of the 5 points of T.U.L.I.P. on the Soteriology Forum, and other than a few sophomoric rebuttals basically claiming that since they are nothing but fiction there is no need to consider them.

Do, or would, I fit in here, or am I just some kind of Biblical freak?

 

[CalvinOwen]

You're not out of step, Democratic America is out of step with a Sovereign God and His children!

I have the same story. I was saved as a Southern Baptist for 25 years before I even heard of Calvinism or knew that I was a Calvininist. All I believed in was the Sovereignty of God and how He had saved me from myself and that He would never leave me. Once I realized that this was "Calvinism" and I was a "Calvinist" I started reading up on it.

I found Calvinism to be the best summary of the Gospel that I had ever heard!

Life experiences, my prayers and the Scriptures began making much more sense to me at this point and of course ever since. It sure is positively unAmerican in this modern Democracy though, but not unAmerican at its founding which was very Calvinistic.

You have found your niche, we just have to help America find its again.

 

[AndOne]

Dmckay,

Your post is most intriguing to me - since you are an ordained minister in the Baptist Church - and really had no idea that you were presenting TULIP until a professor pointed it out to you. That is amazing and I have to admit a little funny .

I'm not trying to make fun - its just that I hear so many stories like yours and CalvinOwen's who study and study the Bible and then unknowingly come up with the same conclusions that John Calvin did! I can include myself in that category as well - at least in the matter of the Perseverence of the Saints - I admit it wasn't until I actually looked into Reformed theology per se that I began to understand predestination.

The main thing to keep in mind is that the ideas presented by Calvin really aren't his own or any body else's. Calvin simply reiterated what the Bible already teaches on the subject. I have no problem whatsoever if people want to refer to me as a Clavinist - since I agree with his teachings - but I tend to refer to myself as a Christian most of the time since it is Christ whom I belong to - not Calvin.

Anyway - welcome to the "Reformed" message board - you are most welcome here - there are a lot of great people you will run into and its a good place to jump to take a break from many of the brutal debates going on - specifically in the Sotorieology Forum. You will find that even here there are minor points of disagreement amongst us of the Reformed persuasion - mostly on Baptism from what I can tell - but they are much more civil.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

I'll second Behe's Boy on this. I was raised in a very Arminian setting, where pleas and effort were made by men to save men and had seen scripture that contradicted these teachings. Nevertheless, it is what I was taught and it never seemed right to me. When I was introduced to the reformed doctrines, I rejected them as something I wasn't raised with, but scripture won out.

Calvinism is a title, Biblical is the description.

Soli Deo Gloria

p.s. I understand 5-point dispensationalism is rare. Are you unique to that combination, or are there many other people in your church who combine the two trains of thought?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Hello DmckayIt sounds like you have found yourself a place to hangout.

Calvinists agree in the area of soteriology, but we do disagree on other matters.

All Reformed Christians are 5 pointers, but not all 5 pointers are Reformed.

Dispensationalism is a radically non-Reformed theology. But many Dispensationalist have been five pointers, although most have not been.

I too (after age 8) was raised Arminian, dispensational and Baptist. Since my mid twenties I have moved away from all three of thos positions. First to go was Arminianism (that took several years of study for me). Then dispensationalism and finally the believers baptism only position of Baptist.

I hope we can have some good discussions in the future.

Dominus Vobiscum,
Kenith

 

[reformedfan]

Your story is excellent & logical! If a person just reads the Bible with no preconceived ideas (assuming they are the elect I just betcha they end up Calvinist.
I had no Christian upbringing, was brought up & force fed Roman Cath lies which I hated so much I became a Satanist, that was too much like RC masses, so I became nothing, then joined a cult, which gave me a regular NKJV Bible. I started reading it, & by God's grace ended up in a Reformed Church, which preached the Christ of the Bible & one day I converted in God's timing & found out after I'd been safely discipled how funny Arminian theology is.

 

[Dmckay]

I'll second Behe's Boy on this. I was raised in a very Arminian setting, where pleas and effort were made by men to save men and had seen scripture that contradicted these teachings. Nevertheless, it is what I was taught and it never seemed right to me. When I was introduced to the reformed doctrines, I rejected them as something I wasn't raised with, but scripture won out.

Calvinism is a title, Biblical is the description.

Soli Deo Gloria

p.s. I understand 5-point dispensationalism is rare. Are you unique to that combination, or are there many other people in your church who combine the two trains of thought?

Actually, I have been fortunate, in that the Holy Spirit has allowed that everyone that I have had the opportunity to sit down with, pray and open the Scriptures with, concerning this has come over to my way of seeing it. Including some of the Professors who once labeled me a heretic.

Then I was recommended to this Forum where for the first time I have experienced some rather merciless attacks, even to the point of being called a creator of fiction (I guess this is Christian political correct speech for Liar) and a purveyer of heresy. I have just about decided to write of these forums as not being a place for Christian fellowship and discussion. Even some of the Moderators seem to be more interested in deriding the views of others than seeking a better understanding of Scriptures and their fellow Christians, but then, considering some of the attacks I suppose that I shouldn't be considered a brother in Christ.

 

[Dmckay]

Hello DmckayIt sounds like you have found yourself a place to hangout.

Calvinists agree in the area of soteriology, but we do disagree on other matters.

All Reformed Christians are 5 pointers, but not all 5 pointers are Reformed.

Dispensationalism is a radically non-Reformed theology. But many Dispensationalist have been five pointers, although most have not been.

I too (after age 8) was raised Arminian, dispensational and Baptist. Since my mid twenties I have moved away from all three of thos positions. First to go was Arminianism (that took several years of study for me). Then dispensationalism and finally the believers baptism only position of Baptist.

I hope we can have some good discussions in the future.

Dominus Vobiscum,
Kenith

Thanks for the welcome. Actually, I am a bit of a maverick in the area of dispensationalism as well. I see it as a tool of hermeneutics rather than a theology. I have found that I can answer interpretational problems and questions with much fewer problems or discrepencies if the interpretation is appproached with a dispensational grid or filter in mind. There is no way that I could ever be mistaken for a Ryrie or a hyper dispensationalist.

 

[Dmckay]

Your story is excellent & logical! If a person just reads the Bible with no preconceived ideas (assuming they are the elect I just betcha they end up Calvinist.
I had no Christian upbringing, was brought up & force fed Roman Cath lies which I hated so much I became a Satanist, that was too much like RC masses, so I became nothing, then joined a cult, which gave me a regular NKJV Bible. I started reading it, & by God's grace ended up in a Reformed Church, which preached the Christ of the Bible & one day I converted in God's timing & found out after I'd been safely discipled how funny Arminian theology is.

Thank you also for your kind words. I rejoice in hearing how our gracious Lord has pulled you out of your earlier false starts and brought you to the saving knowledge of His Dear Son.

 

[BBAS 64]

Perhaps you all can be of some assistance to me. Allow me to explain. I was Ordained to the Conservative Baptist Ministery in 1980. As I continued to pursue my education in Biblical languages and Biblical theology I noticed what I considered inconsistancies between Scripture and what I had been taught doctrinally.

I wrote my Doctoral dissertation on an evaluation Biblically of what I had termed, "Lordship Salvation." I had never heard the term used before, but it fit what I was seeing developed in Scripture as God's plan of salvation. When I submitted the dissertation I was roundly denounced as a heretic by my Doctoral Committee. The only exception was one Professor who held two earned Doctorates from Concordia and Dallas Theological Seminaries. He took me aside and informed me that what I had managed to do was produced one of the most detailed defenses of T.U.L.I.P. he had ever seen.

The school was not Calvinist so while I had read about T.U.L.I.P. in Church History classes, I had not studied T.U.L.I.P. I have since studied the Synod of Dort and realize that I am in point of fact a believer in all 5 point of T.U.L.I.P., but does that make me a Calvinist? I have never really had the time in 30+ years of ministry to read, much less study the writings of Calvinism. I don't know if I fit as a Calvinist or a Reformed theologian. I believe in a dispensational hermeneutic and am Pre-Trib and Pre-Mill in my eschatological viewpoint.

I posted a reworking of my dissertation under the headings of the 5 points of T.U.L.I.P. on the Soteriology Forum, and other than a few sophomoric rebuttals basically claiming that since they are nothing but fiction there is no need to consider them.

Do, or would, I fit in here, or am I just some kind of Biblical freak?

Good Day, Dmckay

I believe that you would be considered a Macauthur, Baptist as you seem to hold the same veiws as him.

Freak is not a bad thing

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[reformedfan]

Then I was recommended to this Forum where for the first time I have experienced some rather merciless attacks, even to the point of being called a creator of fiction (I guess this is Christian political correct speech for Liar) and a purveyer of heresy. I have just about decided to write of these forums as not being a place for Christian fellowship and discussion. Even some of the Moderators seem to be more interested in deriding the views of others than seeking a better understanding of Scriptures and their fellow Christians, but then, considering some of the attacks I suppose that I shouldn't be considered a brother in Christ.

This forum is a pretty good one, so is one my friend started:
http://webwatchdog.net/theologyforum/index.php

it's just a new one, so it's not humongous like this one.

 

[Bulldog]

Perhaps you all can be of some assistance to me. Allow me to explain. I was Ordained to the Conservative Baptist Ministery in 1980. As I continued to pursue my education in Biblical languages and Biblical theology I noticed what I considered inconsistancies between Scripture and what I had been taught doctrinally.

I wrote my Doctoral dissertation on an evaluation Biblically of what I had termed, "Lordship Salvation." I had never heard the term used before, but it fit what I was seeing developed in Scripture as God's plan of salvation. When I submitted the dissertation I was roundly denounced as a heretic by my Doctoral Committee. The only exception was one Professor who held two earned Doctorates from Concordia and Dallas Theological Seminaries. He took me aside and informed me that what I had managed to do was produced one of the most detailed defenses of T.U.L.I.P. he had ever seen.

The school was not Calvinist so while I had read about T.U.L.I.P. in Church History classes, I had not studied T.U.L.I.P. I have since studied the Synod of Dort and realize that I am in point of fact a believer in all 5 point of T.U.L.I.P., but does that make me a Calvinist? I have never really had the time in 30+ years of ministry to read, much less study the writings of Calvinism. I don't know if I fit as a Calvinist or a Reformed theologian. I believe in a dispensational hermeneutic and am Pre-Trib and Pre-Mill in my eschatological viewpoint.

I posted a reworking of my dissertation under the headings of the 5 points of T.U.L.I.P. on the Soteriology Forum, and other than a few sophomoric rebuttals basically claiming that since they are nothing but fiction there is no need to consider them.

If you believe in the five points then you are a Calvinist. Dispensationalism and Calvinism make rare companions, but are not contradictory. All Reformed people are Calvinists, but not all Calvinists are Reformed. Calvinism is not a whole systematic theology, it is sotirology only.

Do, or would, I fit in here, or am I just some kind of Biblical freak?

Not a bad kind of freak to be.

 

[ClementofRome]

Dmckay,

Check out my signature. Whitefield never read Calvin, yet was a Calvinist! Sounds like you and George Whitefield are of like mind! Welcome.

 

[CalvinOwen]

Dmckay,

Check out my signature. Whitefield never read Calvin, yet was a Calvinist! Sounds like you and George Whitefield are of like mind! Welcome.

In our sermon on Sunday our preacher told a great story about Whitefield. Wesley was crticizing Whitefield rather harshley about his Biblical calvinism and they interviewed Whitefield asking him, "Do you think you will see John Wesley in Heaven?" Whitefield answered, "No!" He then continued commenting that "Wesley will be seated so close to Christ and I will be seated so far away that I have no hope of seeing Wesley in Heaven!"

 

[Dmckay]

If you believe in the five points then you are a Calvinist. Dispensationalism and Calvinism make rare companions, but are not contradictory. All Reformed people are Calvinists, but not all Calvinists are Reformed. Calvinism is not a whole systematic theology, it is sotirology only.



Not a bad kind of freak to be.

One of the reasons, besides not having any of Calvin's works, that I have said that I am not a Calvinist is that I have heard that Calvin in his later writings doubted and even wrote against a Limited Atonement. This has caused me to wonder how much he actually had a hand in formulating T.U.L.I.P.

 

[Dmckay]

In our sermon on Sunday our preacher told a great story about Whitefield. Wesley was crticizing Whitefield rather harshley about his Biblical calvinism and they interviewed Whitefield asking him, "Do you think you will see John Wesley in Heaven?" Whitefield answered, "No!" He then continued commenting that "Wesley will be seated so close to Christ and I will be seated so far away that I have no hope of seeing Wesley in Heaven!"

I have heard a similar quote before.It is such a crime what has happened to the Wesleyan's and Methodist's since the days of Wesley.

There is a small Wesleyan Methodist church a few blocks from where I live. I doubt that there are many who live in my neighborhood who even know that it is there. The place is like a black hole, nothing remotely spiritual comes out of it.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

One of the reasons, besides not having any of Calvin's works, that I have said that I am not a Calvinist is that I have heard that Calvin in his later writings doubted and even wrote against a Limited Atonement. This has caused me to wonder how much he actually had a hand in formulating T.U.L.I.P.

I have not heard what you say you heard obout the later Calvin and I think it is an error. I am currently reading the Isnstitutes (this version was completed not too many years before he died) and it is what is commonly published. I have not seen or read anything that suggest Calvin ever went in the direction you mention.

Calvin had nothing to do with TULIP. That is the Acronym for the 5 points of Calvinism formulated at the Synod of Dort, which yook place long after Calvin had died.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Dmckay]

I have not heard what you say you heard obout the later Calvin and I think it is an error. I am currently reading the Isnstitutes (this version was completed not too many years before he died) and it is what is commonly published. I have not seen or read anything that suggest Calvin ever went in the direction you mention.

Calvin had nothing to do with TULIP. That is the Acronym for the 5 points of Calvinism formulated at the Synod of Dort, which yook place long after Calvin had died.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

I just read this recently, I'll see if my ancient abacus of a mind can dredge up the source.