Truth vs Fact.

[Chriliman]

Can you explain the logic behind that?

By definition.

The more uncertain you are about something the more driven you are to find the truth. Its human nature.

 

[paulm50]

View attachment 161879

Given the evidence, I would agree with this. The problem is Christians don't have any outside a book that's been disproven.

 

[paulm50]

Uncertainty is only good in the sense that it inevitably leads to what is true. Once you know what is true you are no longer uncertain.

Uncertainty about what?

Is Genesis right or wrong? Wrong and it's proven.
Was the bible written and edited by Men? True.
Was it inspired by god? Unproven.

Do you know, with evidence, or believe it was inspired by god? If so you have to go with the written word, you can't change the writings because they no longer fit today's culture.

Pick them apart.

So which Christians here sticks to the words of god?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

So is individualism the answer to religion? Dismantle social institutions with logic, and leave everyone unto themselves, by order or reason.

How does the save the pub campaign fit in? http://savethepub.co.uk/

If theres an attack on institutionalised unreason, surely drunkeness ought to be a target as much as "faith"?

 

[paulm50]

So is individualism the answer to religion? Dismantle social institutions with logic, and leave everyone unto themselves, by order or reason.

How does the save the pub campaign fit in? http://savethepub.co.uk/

If theres an attack on institutionalised unreason, surely drunkeness ought to be a target as much as "faith"?

Society is. Religion was based on one religion per Empire. In the Third world they prefer that format. In the First we have so many different versions, religion has been relegated to second place.

Except with people like suicide bombers, or other fanatics.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I always think the truth must be linked to an unchallenged authority. Without that authority, any so-called truth is debatable. For example, for German people in WWII, what Hitler said IS the truth. And for Chinese people in 1960's, whatever Chairman Mao said IS the truth.

Exactly.
Which immediatly shows why people shouldn't be so obsessed with "truth".

Having unchallengeable authorities never ends well.

If we must identify a difference between these words, I'ld state it like this:
- facts can be wrong (they can be... people make mistakes)
- truth can not be wrong

The bigger question, though, is how does one differentiate then between "facts" and "truth".

I don't like this "truth" game. I don't consider any "authority" to be unquestionable. I don't consider anything to be "absolutely true". Intellectually honest minds always leave the door open for the option of being wrong - no matter how unlikely it seems.

I might be talking about "Truth" capital 't' now though.
But that's the only distinction I can come up with.

In every day english however, I think people generally don't mean "Truth" when talking about "truth" or things that are "true".

As the word is being used in this thread and the OP, i'ld say the word "truth" is quite synonymous with the word "fact" in some cases and rather synonymous with the word "opinion" in others.

In that sense, the concept of "God is the Truth" or "What the Bible says is the truth" is fully justified for all Christians.

No. To be justifed in claiming to hold "truth", you'ld better have some rock-solid evidence. Remember, the word "truth" implies a stronger case then mere "facts" (in case we must strictly define it as distinct from "fact", anyway).

And there is no truth for humanist, because to them, human is god and humans are equal. "Thou shalt not kill (murder)" may not be a truth for humanists.

Now, you're just being silly.

 

[paulm50]

Exactly.
Which immediatly shows why people shouldn't be so obsessed with "truth".

Having unchallengeable authorities never ends well.

Religions are man made, the evidence is overwhelming.

 

[Chriliman]

Religions are man made, the evidence is overwhelming.

Religions have no bearing on what is true. Just like humans have no bearing on what is true. What is true is separate from both religion and man. Logically this means truth is infinite and timeless. Religion and man are both finite and based on time.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... What is true is separate from both religion and man. Logically this means truth is infinite and timeless. Religion and man are both finite and based on time.

Er, no - that doesn't follow logically. It would be logical iif religion and man were the only finite and time-based things - and they're clearly not.

 

[Chriliman]

Er, no - that doesn't follow logically. It would be logical iif religion and man were the only finite and time-based things - and they're clearly not.

Fine, let me rephrase what I'm saying. Anything finite would logically be separate from what is true. If this were not true and anything finite determined truth then truth could literally be anything, thereby rendering truth meaningless. Your finite mind does not determine truth, my finite mind does not determine truth, therefore, truth must be infinitely true at all times. And anything infinitely true at all times would logically be infinite and timeless.

 

[paulm50]

Religions have no bearing on what is true. Just like humans have no bearing on what is true. What is true is separate from both religion and man. Logically this means truth is infinite and timeless. Religion and man are both finite and based on time.

Yes what is true has nothing to do with religion or men. What is true is in the evidence. It's up to Humans to find it, not men to make it. The rest is spot on.

So why believe man made records with no evidence?

 

[paulm50]

Fine, let me rephrase what I'm saying. Anything finite would logically be separate from what is true. If this were not true and anything finite determined truth then truth could literally be anything, thereby rendering truth meaningless. Your finite mind does not determine truth, my finite mind does not determine truth, therefore, truth must be infinitely true at all times. And anything infinitely true at all times would logically be infinite and timeless.

Right again. Truth isn't defined in the brain. It's defined on evidence.

The records are finite, in that they stop at the time of the writing. One can add to them, but it has to come from evidence, not from a man's mind.

And anything infinitely true at all times would logically be infinite and timeless.

I see where you're going. Yes this is right. The result of the Arsenal v West Ham game last saturday was Arsenal 0 - 2 West Ham. That's proven and there's evidence. So that result is infinite and timeless. Once proven all records remain infinite and timeless.

But next time they meet, the records of results will be updated. Unlike all the bibles out there. They remain in the time written and the updating is to fit modern culture. No evidence required, just change them to fit even if it means dropping a lot.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Anything finite would logically be separate from what is true. If this were not true and anything finite determined truth then truth could literally be anything, thereby rendering truth meaningless. Your finite mind does not determine truth, my finite mind does not determine truth, therefore, truth must be infinitely true at all times. And anything infinitely true at all times would logically be infinite and timeless.

Er, no. Truth means correspondence to the facts. It may not be possible to establish the facts, or that what is thought to be true corresponds to them, but that doesn't mean it can be anything. You can (mistakenly) think literally anything was true, because you can be mistaken about the facts; but that doesn't make truth meaningless, it make you wrong about the truth. Calling something 'infinitely' true is itself meaningless - it is either true (in correspondence with the facts) or not true (though in practice it can be indeterminate because you don't know).

 

[GrowingSmaller]

OK so I leave Islam. What should I do no? People seem to want to tell me what not to do, and then leave me the freedom to create my own magic. Or, in other words, incompetence when left to do as I please. Lesson number one. Not everyne shares the same psychology and skills. Its odd, because I an natural outsider to some degree. Yet I am in a herd religion. It never felt so good. Lesson number two. If left to whither, the plant will grow in a new direction, given the chance.

 

[KCfromNC]

Fine, let me rephrase what I'm saying. Anything finite would logically be separate from what is true.

False. Indexical statements can be true. It true that it is sunny today. It is true that today's meeting was 1 hour long. And so on.

 

[Belk]

That's probably why we're in the pickle we're in.

Yes, to many people equating their opinion with "Truth" has indeed contributed to the issues we face today.

 

[Deidre32]

Facts are indisputable. Truth is disputable, because we all have different perceptions of it.

 

[Deidre32]

Usually there is little difference between truth and fact when closely examined. Here I present what I consider to be an example of the difference.

It is a fact that immigrants seek a better life in America because of problems in their native lands.

It is the truth that they should stay and work to solve those problems in their native lands.

Note that the truth statement contains a moral element.

Comments or other examples?

In this example, the ''truth'' here is just your opinion. Yes?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Facts are indisputable. Truth is disputable, because we all have different perceptions of it.

So, according to your logic,

2 (is indisputable)
plus
2 (is indisputable)
4 (is disputable)

Mmmmmmmm.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

In this example, the ''truth'' here is just your opinion. Yes?

Is that your opinion?