Trump, Vance and Zelenskyy spar over Russian war in tense exchange at White House

[BobRyan]

duplicate

 

[lifepsyop]

The link you provided is behind a login wall. You cannot view it unless you log into X. I do not have an X account, so I cannot view it.

Well, you have the evidence at your fingertips. Guess you're not really interested enough. Can't be bothered.


Not sure if you need an X account (which is free) to view these.

https://x.com/i/status/1895483238594019371

https://x.com/i/status/1895901501668933977

https://x.com/i/status/1892264533458112838

https://x.com/i/status/1895818517737586799

https://x.com/i/status/1770244369368727714

https://x.com/i/status/1851938913532731807

https://x.com/i/status/1870778595242893339

https://x.com/i/status/1884941125179285863

There are hundreds more.

Do you deny it?


Go ahead and deny that Ukraine is doing what is on hundreds of videos for anyone to see.

 

[lifepsyop]

I don't deny it, but neither do I accept it. I am skeptical, but open.

As it stands, these are videos posted by "random" accounts on the Internet. They are contextualized by the posters to agree with the line of reasoning you've supplied, but how can I know this is accurate without some form of verification? Were they recorded in Ukraine? Were they actual soldiers? And so on, and so on.

It's because I apply critical thinking like this that I am less likely to fall for well-orchestrated propaganda.

Yes, they are Ukrainian. And why should that surprise you? Ukraine is known to be one of the most corrupt nations in the world. Do you think they'd suddenly have principles when it comes to war?

The people are speaking Ukrainian language, there is Ukrainian signage on the streets (significant difference from Russian)
... and in several of the videos you can see Ukrainian badges on the kidnapping officers.

compilation

https://x.com/BowesChay/status/1897019485191893393

It is happening every day, and you couldn't really ask for more evidence.

So, this is what you are supporting. Zelensky's regime is one of the most morally rotten and corrupt of all time.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

It's not about being surprised. It's about starting from a point of skepticism. I start by challenging new information with questions and seeking answers to those questions.


Yes, Ukraine is well known for corruption, but it does not necessarily follow from that that they are kidnapping people to force them to the front lines. If we are critical thinkers, we accept that it may be possible but we also explore the possibility that it might not be the case.


Do you speak and read Ukrainian and Russian? If not, how do you know they are speaking Ukrainian? How do you know the signs are in Ukrainian? How do you there are significant difference between the two languages?

I do not personally speak nor read either of these languages. So this is not something I can directly verify, but I also know that I have to be careful trusting the opinion of someone who also cannot directly verify this (i.e., you, the posters on X, etc.).

And what are the possibilities of there being Russians who also speak Ukrainian? I watch movies from East Asia quite often. They will sometimes have the token American in the movie, but you can tell the actor in the movie is not from a native English speaking country. Can we verify that this is the case?

And how do we know the street signs were not staged? I mean movie magic is routine these days. And then there's the distinct possibility that the videos have been digitally altered.


Yes, I saw the Ukrainian badges in the first video. This still need verification though.


How do we know these officers are kidnapping people? How do we know these are not videos of police officers arresting someone?

How many times have we see videos of police officers in the US presented as doing something awful, but when the full context of the situation is brought out they were in the right?

It's easy to have the wool pulled over our eyes. We tend to be trusting of certain sources, typically ones which generally agree with us. We don't question them when they make claims.


If one cares about truth, one should ask for more evidence.


This remains to be demonstrated, and to this point no compelling case has been made.

I want to be clear. I am not saying that Ukraine is not kidnapping people to force them to the front lines. I am simply saying that this is a claim for which a compelling case has not been made.

I understand that you and many others believe these videos are sufficient, but I don't. I need to have these videos verified because the claim being made is a lot more extraordinary than a report that a car ran into a street sign in the city next to mine.

The answer is - he doesn’t. It’s just concern trolling from pro-Russian conspiracy theorists pushing an agenda. Every link you provide will be ignored, every link they provide must be treated as truth. Don’t waste your time.

 

[BPPLEE]

It's not about being surprised. It's about starting from a point of skepticism. I start by challenging new information with questions and seeking answers to those questions.


Yes, Ukraine is well known for corruption, but it does not necessarily follow from that that they are kidnapping people to force them to the front lines. If we are critical thinkers, we accept that it may be possible but we also explore the possibility that it might not be the case.


Do you speak and read Ukrainian and Russian? If not, how do you know they are speaking Ukrainian? How do you know the signs are in Ukrainian? How do you there are significant difference between the two languages?

I do not personally speak nor read either of these languages. So this is not something I can directly verify, but I also know that I have to be careful trusting the opinion of someone who also cannot directly verify this (i.e., you, the posters on X, etc.).

And what are the possibilities of there being Russians who also speak Ukrainian? I watch movies from East Asia quite often. They will sometimes have the token American in the movie, but you can tell the actor in the movie is not from a native English speaking country. Can we verify that this is the case?

And how do we know the street signs were not staged? I mean movie magic is routine these days. And then there's the distinct possibility that the videos have been digitally altered.


Yes, I saw the Ukrainian badges in the first video. This still need verification though.


How do we know these officers are kidnapping people? How do we know these are not videos of police officers arresting someone?

How many times have we see videos of police officers in the US presented as doing something awful, but when the full context of the situation is brought out they were in the right?

It's easy to have the wool pulled over our eyes. We tend to be trusting of certain sources, typically ones which generally agree with us. We don't question them when they make claims.


If one cares about truth, one should ask for more evidence.


This remains to be demonstrated, and to this point no compelling case has been made.

I want to be clear. I am not saying that Ukraine is not kidnapping people to force them to the front lines. I am simply saying that this is a claim for which a compelling case has not been made.

I understand that you and many others believe these videos are sufficient, but I don't. I need to have these videos verified because the claim being made is a lot more extraordinary than a report that a car ran into a street sign in the city next to mine.

Ukraine war: Conscription squads send Ukrainian men into hiding

Public transport, cafes and supermarkets are now off limits to men trying to avoid being enlisted.

www.bbc.com

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The answer is - he doesn’t. It’s just concern trolling from pro-Russian conspiracy theorists pushing an agenda. Every link you provide will be ignored, every link they provide must be treated as truth. Don’t waste your time.

Trog, do you approve of Ukraine consisting it's men to fight?

 

[BPPLEE]

Trog, do you approve of Ukraine consisting it's men to fight?

I just posted a BBC article about it

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Thanks for sharing the link.

They are not "kidnapping" them, but rather arresting them for draft dodging. That is a lot less dramatic than it was made to sound by the links previously offered.

I thought every Ukranian wants to die in a war against Russia. How can there be draft dodgers?

 

[BPPLEE]

Thanks for sharing the link.

They are not "kidnapping" them, but rather arresting them for draft dodging. That is a lot less dramatic than it was made to sound by the links previously offered.

Conscripts in their 50s training for a month and then being sent into battle is pretty desperate

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I am inclined to agree, but that's not the claim which was being discussed. The following claim is:


They are not being kidnapped. They are being conscripted and/or arrested for draft dodging. That's quite different from the perspective laid out in the links lifepsyop offered.

Ukraine is doing both. Though I find it disturbing you support conscription of Ukranians.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Ukraine is doing both. Though I find it disturbing you support conscription of Ukranians.

I find it disturbing that you support the US despite it having a form of conscription too - one for which a failure to register, even for non-citizens, carries a five year prison term.

Selective Service System - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I find it even more disturbing that you support a draft-dodging coward of a president who hasn’t removed this system despite winning office twice.

 

[BPPLEE]

I am inclined to agree, but that's not the claim which was being discussed. The following claim is:


They are not being kidnapped. They are being conscripted and/or arrested for draft dodging. That's quite different from the perspective laid out in the links lifepsyop offered.

People are being taken against their will and forced into military service. Calling it an arrest or conscription may sound better but it's not much different than kidnapping in reality

 

[BPPLEE]

I find it disturbing that you support the US despite it having a form of conscription too - one for which a failure to register, even for non-citizens, carries a five year prison term.

Selective Service System - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I find it even more disturbing that you support a draft-dodging coward of a president who hasn’t removed this system despite winning office twice.

The US hasn't had a draft since January of 1973. 18 year olds still have to register but no one is being conscripted

 

[BPPLEE]

Would you define the following as kidnapping?



Source: https://archive.ph/eXE8x

Yeah, it's not much different That's why we don't have a draft anymore.
A volunteer force is more motivated anyway

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I find it disturbing that you support the US despite it having a form of conscription too - one for which a failure to register, even for non-citizens, carries a five year prison term.

Selective Service System - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I find it even more disturbing that you support a draft-dodging coward of a president who hasn’t removed this system despite winning office twice.

I don't support the US or compelling men to fight wars they don't want to fight. Why do you?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I've only seen evidence for them conscripting and arresting draft dodgers. Do you have evidence that they are kidnapping people?

I've seen the clips on less politically correct websites. The war footage. It's happening and I doubt you'd accept it even if you saw it.

Why?

Because conscription is evil. Especially when you are not willing to fight in a war you support and desire conscription for

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I am willing to grant Ignatius some grace on this point. He claims to be a Kiwi, so perhaps he's not familiar with our laws.

I am familiar with conscription and consider it morally reprehensible. Do you believe Zelensky can force men who don't want to fight to die on the front lines? Why?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I am open minded, but I apply critical thinking. I approach such things with skepticism because it's too easy to "fake" such things. Videos can be stages, edited, altered, or even mislabeled. And given that the stakes are high, it's important to be skeptical and approach them with critical thinking.

I think you have not been exposed to the videos surrounding this war and the how this is basically the most televised war in all of history. That there is numerous footage out there but you will simply deny it when presented to you through infinite appeals to skeptifcism. The BBC article linked shows that press ganging in question. Do you believe people must be forced to fight in a war they don't want to fight in? Is this justified?

Or what about this?

The footage is out there, you just will deliberately ignore it.

What is your basis for this claim?

That it is immoral to force people to fight a war that they do not support. Can you justify sending unwilling Ukrainian men to the front? Why does the state get to determine what a man is going to fight for? Conscription is horrific.

Can? Yes. Should? Not sure.

Should Zelensky be doing this if he claims that Ukraine is willing to fight? Why does Ukraine need conscription since we have been assured that every Ukrainian is willing to fight to the last Ukrainian?

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

I am familiar with conscription and consider it morally reprehensible. Do you believe Zelensky can force men who don't want to fight to die on the front lines? Why?

I can agree with your stance to some extent, assuming that you apply it at least as equally to Russia.

So we agree? Putin is evil, Russians should not be forced into the army and their imperialist invasion force should leave Ukraine and save Russian lives?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I can agree with your stance to some extent, assuming that you apply it at least as equally to Russia.

So we agree? Putin is evil, Russians should not be forced into the army and their imperialist invasion force should leave Ukraine and save Russian lives?

I said conscription is evil, not that the people who do it are necessarily evil. One can understand why states do it. But yes, Russia and your own country are in the wrong for having a draft.

The point in me bringing it up is to undermine the notion that Ukraine is a country willingly fighting this war. That it seems possible that many of it's soldiers are dragged to the front via the use of state coercion and this is because they are suffering a manpower deficit. Should a nation in such a state fight to the end? Or should it come to terms?

I also think you are wrong for thinking this is a war about imperialism. Putin was willing to agree to neutrality and some autonomy for the Eastern provinces remaining in Ukraine. He invaded Crimea in 2014 because of a large Russian Naval base there and the new Ukrainian regime with it's western leaning would likely not continue with that, so there was strategic concerns first and foremost. He's also not going to walk away when he's winning.